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Electronics Forum / Equipment / July 2009device for testing UK adsl signal
in my job fixing internet connections (here in the UK) I constantly collide with bad adsl signals and dodgy home telephone wiring and I need a device that tests the presence/level/quality of the adsl signal on the line - something I can plug into the BT socket and get an accurate reading. I specifically want to test for any deterioration in the adsl signal in extension sockets coming off the main socket. I figured there must be a gadget somewhere that can do this but I've never seen one. I've heard the argument about using routers but I'm not interested in that, I'd rather get a dedicated device. Does anyone know of such equipment? thanks for any advice. > I figured there must be a gadget somewhere that can do this but I've never > seen one. Try googling "ADSL handheld"  SignatureAdrian C >> I figured there must be a gadget somewhere that can do this but I've >> never >> seen one. > > Try googling "ADSL handheld" thanks for your feedback, that search did bring up some gadgets. The first one was over £3000...oh dear. I did see a Vonaq 100 pretty cheap but I'm not sure if this device will serve my needs. I liked the look of the argus testers but again I'll make sure I'm sitting down when I check out the price. >in my job fixing internet connections (here in the UK) I constantly collide >with bad adsl signals and dodgy home telephone wiring and I need a device >that tests the presence/level/quality of the adsl signal on the line - >something I can plug into the BT socket and get an accurate reading. These (DSL) line test systems have existed and do exist. They are available to industry, but are rather expensive, so you need to reveal your budget before I'll bother researching and posting a list. We're talking tens of thousands, IIRC for a reasonable tester. > I >specifically want to test for any deterioration in the adsl signal in >extension sockets coming off the main socket. >I figured there must be a gadget somewhere that can do this but I've never >seen one. Consider a simple signal strength meter, with a 20 KHz high pass filter. Study DSL some more. Understand the bands used, the frequencies used. Then you can come up with something realistic to test with, assuming your budget doesn't allow for a dedicated tester. But... Why are you running DSL to multiple sockets? Catch the DSL line as it enters the premises and run the modem there, then split the POTS line to the sockets as needed. Don't try to run the DSL places where it is 'not needed'. > I've heard the argument about using routers but I'm not >interested in that, What does a router have to do with this problem. That's an ethernet device, and knows zip, zero, nothing, nada about DSL. >I'd rather get a dedicated device. Does anyone know of >such equipment? >thanks for any advice. In uk.telecom.broadband PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote: : What does a router have to do with this problem. That's an ethernet : device, and knows zip, zero, nothing, nada about DSL. I had presumed this meant that most routers will give an analysis of the DSL line (S/N levels, sync speeds etc.) on their control interface. > In uk.telecom.broadband PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I had presumed this meant that most routers will give an analysis of the DSL > line (S/N levels, sync speeds etc.) on their control interface. ... If the router is a modem-router (as most are these days used in the context of ADSL) SignatureAdrian C > In uk.telecom.broadband PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I had presumed this meant that most routers will give an analysis of the DSL > line (S/N levels, sync speeds etc.) on their control interface. Well it depends if you mean by router a 'generic device for machining wood' a ' device that purely routes computer network traffic' or ' A device thet purely routes ethernet traffic or 'a device that not only routes IP traffic but also does NAT, and contains a DSL modem as well' I THINK the definition is a device that maintains a routing state table of some sort, that connects networks at a layer *above* the transport address level. This clearly marking where an ethernet switch ends: That being a device that routes Ethernet packets irrespoective of what protocol is layered above. Strictly a 'broadband router' is hardly a router at all. Its a DSL modem with ATM support and almost (but not quite) a bridge between the CPE and the ISP termination equipment. >>in my job fixing internet connections (here in the UK) I constantly >>collide [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >>such equipment? >>thanks for any advice. I see your logic, but most domestic grade routers sold in the UK are hybrid devices and include a DSL modem and often a wireless access point too. I suspect you are not in the UK, are things different where you are? Oh and we pronounce it "rooter" and not "rawter". I certainly carry such a device for diagnostic purposes. SignatureGraham. %Profound_observation% > Oh and we pronounce it "rooter" and not "rawter". ROWTER shirley? > I certainly carry such a device for diagnostic purposes. Drilling holes and trepanning into peoples' mind sets perhaps? ;-) > I see your logic, but most domestic grade routers sold in the UK > are hybrid devices and include a DSL modem and often a wireless > access point too. I suspect you are not in the UK, are things > different where you are? I am in the UK >> I see your logic, but most domestic grade routers sold in the UK >> are hybrid devices and include a DSL modem and often a wireless >> access point too. I suspect you are not in the UK, are things >> different where you are? > > I am in the UK I know you are, my remark was addressed to "PeterD" SignatureGraham. %Profound_observation% > Oh and we pronounce it "rooter" and not "rawter". There is a nation of sniggering ozzies having a great and crude time with the word router and the pronounciation as rooter ... > I certainly carry such a device for diagnostic purposes. Indeed, you do ;-) SignatureAdrian C >I see your logic, but most domestic grade routers sold in the UK >are hybrid devices and include a DSL modem and often a wireless >access point too. I suspect you are not in the UK, are things >different where you are? US, and they go either way here. I use stand alone DSL modems, and then feed a router which is a seperate box. Oh, and at least around here, we say rooter too. >Oh and we pronounce it "rooter" and not "rawter". > >I certainly carry such a device for diagnostic purposes. I know of some that do give diagnostic information, but I'd be reluctant to depend on it. But again, why wire DSL to all the phone jacks, instead do the jack nearest the entry point, put the DSL modem (or router/modem) there, and put the rest of the house's sockets on the other side of a DSL filter. >>I see your logic, but most domestic grade routers sold in the UK >>are hybrid devices and include a DSL modem and often a wireless [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and put the rest of the house's sockets on the other side of a DSL > filter. I agree, it's far from ideal. Here in the UK ADSL is almost always self-installed by the customer, and it is easier for the ISP to mail out to the customer a number of ADSL filters with instructions to connect them between extension sockets and POTS equipment. The more savvy amongst us will use a central splitter/filter an a similar way to what I think you normally do in the US. The problem here in getting the uninitiated to alter the wiring, is if they mess it up, the main phone company that looks after the local loop will charge heavily if they are called out. Other problems are for historical reason's some properties don't have a recognised demarcation point between the Telco's wiring and customers own wiring Another odd (unique?) feature is the master socket contains a capacitor that passes the AC ringing current to a third pin on each telephone socket to work the ringer, although most newer phones ignore this and sense the ringing from the line pair in the normal way, this third wire tends to adversely affect marginal DSL signals. Oh and we don't use RJ11 jacks on the end of the cord, we use an odd UK connector that no doubt has a name, but it is so ubiquitous here it is simply called a phone plug. SignatureGraham. %Profound_observation% >>>I see your logic, but most domestic grade routers sold in the UK >>>are hybrid devices and include a DSL modem and often a wireless [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > we use an odd UK connector that no doubt has a name, > but it is so ubiquitous here it is simply called a phone plug. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_telephone_sockets George > But... Why are you running DSL to multiple sockets? Catch the DSL line > as it enters the premises and run the modem there, then split the POTS > line to the sockets as needed. Don't try to run the DSL places where > it is 'not needed'. I can't do that. If the customer wants the adsl 'there', I've got to make it work there. >> I've heard the argument about using routers but I'm not >>interested in that, > > What does a router have to do with this problem. That's an ethernet > device, and knows zip, zero, nothing, nada about DSL. some routers give detailed info about the adsl signal they're connected to but I'm not going to do it that way. I'm talking about the home/plastic box routers here, not the pure ethernet devices. >> But... Why are you running DSL to multiple sockets? Catch the DSL line >> as it enters the premises and run the modem there, then split the POTS [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I can't do that. If the customer wants the adsl 'there', I've got to make > it work there. Of course you do, but that is not at odds with Peter's advice. Ideally use a filtered faceplate on the master socket and connect all the extension sockets to the filtered side. Only the socket for the router (wherever the customer wants it) should be direct from the line (use an RJ11 plate to prevent a phone being plugged in). Using multiple filters, one on each POTS device is not ideal, despite what some ISPs might have you believe. Tackling installations, especially marginal ones, using this central filter approach is more important than investing in expensive test equipment. SignatureGraham. %Profound_observation% > in my job fixing internet connections (here in the UK) I constantly > collide [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > such equipment? > thanks for any advice. They are available but expect to have to pay lots for one. Google ADSL handheld for a range of them. Peter Crosland > I've heard the argument about using routers but I'm not interested in > that, Get a router that's compatible with DMT [http://dmt.mhilfe.de/] and you'll be able to get a frequency response graph from each point where you'd like to test. Signature<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx) 19:49:02 up 56 days, 3:53, 2 users, load average: 0.09, 0.26, 0.25 A few flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction >> I've heard the argument about using routers but I'm not interested in >> that, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > like > to test. thanks I'm not interested in routers, I want to get a handheld dedicated device. thanks for all the responses here. I think that once funds allow, I'll be getting a Vonaq 500 tester. It's closer to my (recession-hit) budget and from what I gather it will provide the info I want from the line. If anyone has used one of these devices and wants to enlighten us all about it's pro's and con's go right ahead.. >thanks for all the responses here. I think that once funds allow, I'll be >getting a Vonaq 500 tester. It's closer to my (recession-hit) budget and >from what I gather it will provide the info I want from the line. If anyone >has used one of these devices and wants to enlighten us all about it's >pro's and con's go right ahead.. I'm not criticising your decision to buy test equipment, it's laudable to want to do the job properly but I just wonder why, if BT engineers used to use a fairly simple USB modem and a laptop to determine line quality etc. that isn't good enough for you? I can't see anything on that device that you can't obtain from a simple router or USB modem (apart from perhaps ADSL2+, does anyone do a USB attached ADSL2+ 'modem'?). The only advantage is that it's self contained but I'd be surprised if it's anything more than a router in a box with an LCD attached to a debug port for which you're paying a hefty premium. The fact that you can't even download a brochure without registering for marketing e-mail off them puts me off as well, surely if the product is good then they'd share the details. Again, really not meant as a dig at you, it just baffles me why spending more money than is necessary to get the job done seems to be required unless it's to baffle customers with bullshit (which may be taken as either a dig or a heads up for you) SignatureClint Sharp >>thanks for all the responses here. I think that once funds allow, I'll be >>getting a Vonaq 500 tester. It's closer to my (recession-hit) budget and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > unless it's to baffle customers with bullshit (which may be taken as > either a dig or a heads up for you) Spot on really! Unless you are investigating a really obscure problem it is an expensive tool. When I had a serious problem the specialist OpenReach engineer brought a Cable Shark amongst other things and he said that it was really overkill for ADSL fault finding. Most of his testing was done with the standard USB modem. Peter Crosland > Spot on really! Unless you are investigating a really obscure problem it > is an expensive tool. When I had a serious problem the specialist > OpenReach engineer brought a Cable Shark amongst other things and he said > that it was really overkill for ADSL fault finding. Most of his testing > was done with the standard USB modem. that's typical of a bt engineer. You think he gives a damn about quality of work? He's on a fixed wage, he just wants to do as little as possible to complete and get back to his tv. >> Spot on really! Unless you are investigating a really obscure problem it >> is an expensive tool. When I had a serious problem the specialist [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > work? He's on a fixed wage, he just wants to do as little as possible to > complete and get back to his tv. You really are leading with your chin by making such a sweeping, and wholly inaccurate, statement. The engineer I was talking about was emphatically not one of the regular OpenReach fault finders, but a regional specialist known as a Precision Test Officer or PTO who undoubtedly knows rather more about job than you do. Much of the testing he did involved fitting test equipment at the exchange and using this to examine what was happening between it and various points between there and the customer's site. For someone such as yourself advanced ADSL test gear is simply unnecessary. Peter Crosland >>> Spot on really! Unless you are investigating a really obscure problem >>> it is an expensive tool. When I had a serious problem the specialist [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > regional specialist known as a Precision Test Officer or PTO who > undoubtedly knows rather more about job than you do. I have to object. Most PTR's are the laziest, dumbest tossers you will find on the firm. It takes years of begging to get one of his (or her) arse, they expect everything to be done for them and then find nothing. I recall watching one hunting for a source of interference with a massive dipole aerial and a million pound tester. A £5 AM radio and a pair of ears used by a multi-skilled faultsman who still gave a toss proved to be just as effective and faster. A PTR does not get the role of 'specialist' as per the normal definition. It is usually an upward promotion for the sick, lame, lazy or useless. At BT/Openreach sh.t HAS ALWAYS FLOATED TO THE TOP OF THE BUCKET. There may be one or two that break this mould, but by far you could sack all PTR's and nobody much would notice other than the accountants. Still Peter Crosland - I'm glad you still believe the hype :-) >>>> Spot on really! Unless you are investigating a really obscure problem >>>> it is an expensive tool. When I had a serious problem the specialist [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Still Peter Crosland - I'm glad you still believe the hype :-) Not bitter and twisted then? That's reassuring ;-) George > Not bitter and twisted then? That's reassuring When people resort to shouting and abusive language like this it is a clear sign they have totally lost the plot. Sounds like an ex BT employee who did not make the grade to me so I added him to my killfile.. Peter Crosland >> Not bitter and twisted then? That's reassuring > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Peter Crosland Always been a w.nker know-nothing, always will be. >>> Not bitter and twisted then? That's reassuring >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Always been a w.nker know-nothing, always will be. He's an arrogant so-and-so isn't he? A quick look at his posting profile shows he rarely contributes to a thread unless he is the OP, a sure indicator of a troll. A few weeks ago he needed help identifying an signal he received on his HF "scanner". It occurred to me if his data-comms experience is not up to identifying simple FSK Baudot, what chance has he got troubleshooting a complex DMT signal? SignatureGraham. %Profound_observation% >>>> Not bitter and twisted then? That's reassuring >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > to identifying simple FSK Baudot, what chance has he got > troubleshooting a complex DMT signal? I have some sympathy for him. I was always brought up to not be too harsh to retards and those with special needs. I just wish he would stop making himself look such a dick with him imaginary kill file. I mean, look at this from his header; X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 You've got to just roll on the floor and laugh at that. Next time I'm in Mickey Mouse Microsoft Outlook Express Land I'll add him to my fantasy kill-file. That's what makes him the w.nker - his post was just retarded as normal. I'm waiting for the predictable 'I only saw your response because somebody else followed up' YAWN. Need to correct my typing hands on the post. Of course I meant PTO - not PTR. Having just contributed to an anti-spam group I had PTR on the brain. > Always been a w.nker know-nothing, always will be. Yes, but what about Peter Crosland? Signature<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx) 17:16:36 up 59 days, 2:00, 1 user, load average: 0.16, 0.17, 0.11 A few flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction >> Always been a w.nker know-nothing, always will be. > > Yes, but what about Peter Crosland? The same as you Alex. As stated. >>thanks for all the responses here. I think that once funds allow, I'll be >>getting a Vonaq 500 tester. It's closer to my (recession-hit) budget and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > unless it's to baffle customers with bullshit (which may be taken as > either a dig or a heads up for you) And you have to ask yourself even if your instrument identifies a problem, what are you going to do about it? Your options are limited to A) Eliminating everything downstream of the line-box. B) If A improves the situation, optimising the customers installation by remaking connections, using single-point filtering, removing bell wires etc. C) If A does not improve the situation conceder escalation via ISP In other words, exactly the same options as you would have without the tester. Just a thought, can that Vonaq device do the DMT tool trickery like a bog-standard Netgear router can? SignatureGraham. %Profound_observation% Graham. Inscribed thus: >>>thanks for all the responses here. I think that once funds allow, >>>I'll be getting a Vonaq 500 tester. It's closer to my (recession-hit) [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Just a thought, can that Vonaq device do the DMT tool trickery like > a bog-standard Netgear router can? Every ADSL problem I've come across is, either the signal is present at the master socket or it isn't. Everything else is internal, ie the clients responsibility ! A speedtouch 330 does just fine for testing the line. After that an ohmmeter and a few jumpered plugs will allow internal wiring tests. M2P SignatureBest Regards: Baron. > Graham. Inscribed thus: > Every ADSL problem I've come across is, either the signal is present at > the master socket or it isn't. Everything else is internal, ie the > clients responsibility ! A speedtouch 330 does just fine for testing > the line. After that an ohmmeter and a few jumpered plugs will allow > internal wiring tests. spoken like a true amateur. > And you have to ask yourself even if your instrument identifies a > problem, what are you going to do about it? for a start I'd be more certain about what the situation really is, I'd be more certain about what I could and couldn't do about it, and I'd be able to inform the client with greater honesty about what they should do. Many might not care about that, but it means a lot to me. >> And you have to ask yourself even if your instrument identifies a >> problem, what are you going to do about it? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'd be able to inform the client with greater honesty about what they > should do. Many might not care about that, but it means a lot to me. The fact is unless you are a BT engineer anything upto the master socket (demarcation point) is not your responsibility ! The only wiring you are legally allowed to touch is internal, ie from the master socket. Only from that point, then consumer takes full responsibility. SignatureBest Regards: Baron. >>> And you have to ask yourself even if your instrument identifies a >>> problem, what are you going to do about it? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > are legally allowed to touch is internal, ie from the master socket. > Only from that point, then consumer takes full responsibility. Sorry Baron the rules changed around 2-3 years ago. Anything inside the house & run along the outside the house is liable to charges being made, with the proviso that if the cables are on a wall directly accessible from the street then charges may not be raised. Similarly if you have an overhead cable going thru a tree on your property & it damages the cable, guess who's going to get charged..... Yes I know I'm going to be called a liar and that I'm exaggerating and that I don't know what I'm talking about, but remember the charges are raised against your service provider, it's up to them whether they pass them onto you. Why do you think Openreach was profitable last year? >>>> And you have to ask yourself even if your instrument identifies a >>>> problem, what are you going to do about it? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > pass them onto you. Why do you think Openreach was profitable last > year? Why on earth should you be called a liar ? Rules change ! It doesn't actually alter the fact that the OP doesn't have the right to do any work on the wiring on BT's side... Unless he is a BT employee of course, in which case why does he need to buy his own kit ! SignatureBest Regards: Baron. >>> And you have to ask yourself even if your instrument identifies a >>> problem, what are you going to do about it? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > are legally allowed to touch is internal, ie from the master socket. > Only from that point, then consumer takes full responsibility. Its not a legal issue, so much as the fine print in the service contract with BT. And generally only invoked when you call BT out to fix a fault that is definitely down to your ham fisted tampering with their line. They will charge you. >> And you have to ask yourself even if your instrument identifies a >> problem, what are you going to do about it? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to inform the client with greater honesty about what they should do. Many > might not care about that, but it means a lot to me. Definite cowboy. Use a fancy looking bit of test equipment and get the customer to pay more. Just make sure you know what you are talking about when you visit, you might get caught out. I'm still waiting for you to post your company name so we can all avoid you. >>thanks for all the responses here. I think that once funds allow, I'll be >>getting a Vonaq 500 tester. It's closer to my (recession-hit) budget and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to use a fairly simple USB modem and a laptop to determine line quality > etc. that isn't good enough for you? aspring to be as good as a BT engineer is like aspiring to be a bin man. I want to be ahead of them, not level with them. waiting for the adsl light to stop blinking is for amateurs. > >>thanks for all the responses here. I think that once funds allow, I'll be > >>getting a Vonaq 500 tester. It's closer to my (recession-hit) budget and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > want to be ahead of them, not level with them. > waiting for the adsl light to stop blinking is for amateurs. Yawn. If you're so damn smart get a job there and show them how its done. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >> I'm not criticising your decision to buy test equipment, it's laudable to >> want to do the job properly but I just wonder why, if BT engineers used [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >aspring to be as good as a BT engineer is like aspiring to be a bin man. I >want to be ahead of them, not level with them. Meh... This all smacks of someone trying to justify a bad decision who's spitting his dummy out now someone has shown him there's no point. >waiting for the adsl light to stop blinking is for amateurs. I guess it must be a special, professional, blinking LED on the Vonaq then.. I bow to your superior attitude and wish to offer apologies for pointing out that the kit you're about to unnecessarily spend money on is not going to give you any more information than the status page of a cheap router. Still, it's got a pretty case and six lovely professional LED indicators so I bet your customers will be impressed that you can professionally bullshit them. Good luck. SignatureClint Sharp pment > >waiting for the adsl light to stop blinking is for amateurs. > I guess it must be a special, professional, blinking LED on the Vonaq > then.. To me the blinking light means negotiation process. Some modems tell you all you want to know, both numerical values, and a picture of the BINS spectrum in bargraph form, where you can, if you have the time and inclination, select and write down the values for each BIN, and there are a lot of them. >> >waiting for the adsl light to stop blinking is for amateurs. >> I guess it must be a special, professional, blinking LED on the Vonaq >> then.. > >To me the blinking light means negotiation process. I guess it depends which modem/router combo you have, some blink when synced, some are steady, some change colour. It's programmable on some of the reference designs. SignatureClint Sharp >>>thanks for all the responses here. I think that once funds allow, I'll be >>>getting a Vonaq 500 tester. It's closer to my (recession-hit) budget and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > want to be ahead of them, not level with them. > waiting for the adsl light to stop blinking is for amateurs. If you had a decent education, qualifications and business sense, you would not need to ask in a newsgroup. I suspect you are a cowboy facing prosecution for ripping people off, or you are doing your first year university course and after ideas for a project but can't be bothered making any effort. Come on, what is your company name? If you were qualified in any way you would have a job by now - there is no point having a go at people that do have a job because you appear too thick. > in my job fixing internet connections (here in the UK) I constantly > collide [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > such equipment? > thanks for any advice. Yes, an ADSL router and a laptop. The router will show sync speed and if the line is crap it will show as a lower rate. If you don't know how to perform such a basic test, do post the name of your company so people can avoid you - you sound like a cowboy. >> in my job fixing internet connections (here in the UK) I constantly >> collide [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > perform such a basic test, do post the name of your company so people > can avoid you - you sound like a cowboy. I have to agree - sounds awful to me. But the fact there is a market for people like this to step in to is a worry. Could this be because of the service they get from Openreach? Could this be because of the fear of being charged over £100 if it happens to be customer equipment? This has left a space in the market for others to operate that may not have the skills or know how needed to get the job done. As an aside. I remember back in my time at BT the hideously expensive 'Presto' tester. So expensive there was usually only 1 per exchange. I forget what it was that rendered them useless overnight, but perhaps the poster can look on eBay for one if he needs a toy to hold on to :-) >>> in my job fixing internet connections (here in the UK) I constantly >>> collide [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > equipment? This has left a space in the market for others to operate > that may not have the skills or know how needed to get the job done. Yes it has left a gap in the market ! Simply because the ISP's don't provide good support for the user. They just send out a kit, admittedly with good instructions, but many people just don't understand what is in front of them. Or probably more accurately don't read the instructions in them. In my experience, people sign up for broadband and then when the kit arrives, usually days before the switch on date, connect everything up and then don't understand why it doesn't work. Also many people decide to have the bedrooms wired for a telephone ! Which in itself is not a problem, the phone always works. If the phone works then so should the router/modem plugged into the extention. They simply don't have a clue as to why it may or may not work. Often it doesn't. This is the perfect situation for a cowboy to take advantage of ! > As an aside. I remember back in my time at BT the hideously expensive > 'Presto' tester. So expensive there was usually only 1 per exchange. I > forget what it was that rendered them useless overnight, but perhaps > the poster can look on eBay for one if he needs a toy to hold on to > :-) SignatureBest Regards: Baron. |
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