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Electronics Forum / Electrical Engineering / July 2009Unsmoothed car battery charger - is it crap?
My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights on). My fancy new modern charger senses a poor battery and only puts in very little charge. I used to use a really old charger to charge this battery successfully. I opened up the old charger and saw it was only a transformer and a big rectifier. That's it. No soothing. Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? Eddie coughed up some electrons that declared: > My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old > but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? Well, it always has been OK - never seen a car charger that was anything but a transformer and some rectifiers - but then I haven't actually bought a new one for 20 years! The only concern is for the electronics in the car, but generally the battery itself will do the smoothing, which only leaves over-voltage to be a problem, so don't over charge the battery, which would be bad for the battery anyway. If you're paranoid you could disconnect the +ve and charge the battery in isolation. Cheers Tim > Eddie coughed up some electrons that declared: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > was anything but a transformer and some rectifiers - but then > I haven't actually bought a new one for 20 years! I'm the OP. I think my battery charger is over 30 years old! I took the casing off (rivetted of course) to see the inside: front = http://i44.tinypic.com/wuq7p5.jpg transformer = http://i44.tinypic.com/2dmfsef.jpg rectifier = http://i40.tinypic.com/2i0dnyp.jpg It sure looks dated! Eddie > The only concern is for the electronics in the car, but > generally the battery itself will do the smoothing, which only [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Cheers > Tim >> Eddie coughed up some electrons that declared: >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> Cheers >> Tim Ooh, I used to have one of those, don't leave it connected for days or it'll boil your battery. > I'm the OP. I think my battery charger is over 30 years old! > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It sure looks dated! True, but not a big deal. You might want a new strain relief or grommet on the power cord before you cut the cord by not using one where it goes through the case. The quaint power rectifiers are fine until they are not - if they ever go bad, "modern" replacements are fairly simple to get. You probably have a much better ammeter than you'll get in any "modern" charger. Nothing wrong with old stuff that works. If you want a smarter charger, you can start here and add smarts, capacitors, whatever makes you happy - timers, pulsers, voltage regulators, the works. The base it's built on hasn't changed much in 70 years.  SignatureCats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by >> I'm the OP. I think my battery charger is over 30 years old! >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > not - if they ever go bad, "modern" replacements are fairly simple to > get. Selenium rectifiers are still being manufactured (see eg <http://www.rectifierindia.com/product/seleniumrectifiers/>, which refers to a "continuous research and development programme aimed at reliable, lowcost, compact selenium rectifier elements and stacks") but I presume you refer instead to silicon diodes. > You probably have a much better ammeter than you'll get in any > "modern" charger. > > Nothing wrong with old stuff that works. ... Signaturejiw > My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old > but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? Both; it is crude but it's ok for a car battery. Signature----------------------------------------------------------------------- To reply to me directly: Replace privacy.net with: totalise DOT co DOT uk and replace me with gareth.harris >> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Both; it is crude but it's ok for a car battery. Modern "intelligent" chargers are much kinder to the battery and usually have an automatic maintain mode, so you don't have to remove the charger as soon as it's charged and can even use them to maintain the charge if the vehicle is not used for some time. Old fashioned basic chargers will sometimes recover batteries that an intelligent charger won't charge though, but if you leave them on too long they'll boil the electrolyte off. Personally, I use an intelligent charger, but have an old charger to start the charge on any very flat battery, which I can then complete with the modern one. SteveW > My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old > but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? Check the electrolyte level in your battery.Filtered DC causes polarization of the battery. Bob >> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bob An unpolarised battery isn't much use. >>> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >>> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >An unpolarised battery isn't much use. Dunno - might make a good door stop Signaturegeoff >>>> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >>>> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Dunno - might make a good door stop Fair point. >>An unpolarised battery isn't much use. > >Dunno - might make a good door stop Depends a bit on size. Last week a VERY large hornet decided to take a stroll across my work bench. A 2.8Ah Yuasa flattened it perfectly. Although I must admit that it was not unpolarised, the battery that is. Any one have any other uses for old batteries? SignatureBill >>>An unpolarised battery isn't much use. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Any one have any other uses for old batteries? Yes, when religion peddlers come to the door, they make great things to throw. "But, I didn't see that guy standing there, sorry!" <bg> BTW, don't unpolarized batteries just provide AC? And if that's the case, how do you specifiy 50 or 60 Hz? > >In message <26i1ZWiMrCLKF...@demon.co.uk>, geoff <ra...@kateda.org> > >writes [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > BTW, don't unpolarized batteries just provide AC? Yes. 0VAC > And if that's the case, how do you specifiy 50 or 60 Hz? 0VAC 50/60Hz. Of course, in Spice they can deliver whatever voltage/frequency you want. No need to worry about the little details of thermodynamics either. >>>>An unpolarised battery isn't much use. >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > BTW, don't unpolarized batteries just provide AC? And if that's the > case, how do you specifiy 50 or 60 Hz? ...that is how fast it tumbles when thrown? >>>>An unpolarised battery isn't much use. >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >BTW, don't unpolarized batteries just provide AC? And if that's the >case, how do you specifiy 50 or 60 Hz? The further you drop it, the more it hurts ... Signaturegeoff > >> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old > >> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > An unpolarised battery isn't much use. An AC battery would be darn handy... Adam >> >> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >> >> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Adam You've not met Radioheads big battery have you :-) On 7 Jun 2009 20:50, wrote: >> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a >> bit old but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bob It's a sealed battery. Are they better or worse than electrolyte batteries when the charge drops to very low? > On 7 Jun 2009 20:50, wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It's a sealed battery. Are they better or worse than electrolyte > batteries when the charge drops to very low? Similar, the difference is when they're overcharged , but any battery with a high CCA compared to it's capacity won't like being hard discharged. Boost it for a few hours on the old charger, charge it up on a decent one or by driving the car & see if it's still happy. > On 7 Jun 2009 20:50, wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It's a sealed battery. Are they better or worse than electrolyte > batteries when the charge drops to very low? Sealed batteries use a gelled electolyte, and so the charge rate must be limited to prevent outgassing. Within that limit, they are supposed to tolerate extended charging times because the internal chemistry changes some to compensate. > > It's a sealed battery. Are they better or worse than electrolyte > > batteries when the charge drops to very low? > Sealed batteries use a gelled electolyte, and so the charge rate must > be limited to prevent outgassing. Although they're called sealed, car batteries are actually low maintenance types which are still wet. Some serious off roaders may use SLA - but don't know of any car which does. > Within that limit, they are supposed to tolerate extended charging > times because the internal chemistry changes some to compensate. Signature*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> > It's a sealed battery. Are they better or worse than electrolyte >> > batteries when the charge drops to very low? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > types which are still wet. Some serious off roaders may use SLA - but > don't know of any car which does. MX5s IIRC >>> It's a sealed battery. Are they better or worse than electrolyte >>> batteries when the charge drops to very low? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > types which are still wet. Some serious off roaders may use SLA - but > don't know of any car which does. Optima sells SLA batteries intended for vehicles. I don't know of any car manufacture that uses one as the OEM battery, but I've seen plenty of them in cars. Whether they have any real advantage over conventional low maintenance automotive batteries in that application, I don't know. > > Although they're called sealed, car batteries are actually low maintenance > > types which are still wet. Some serious off roaders may use SLA - but > > don't know of any car which does. > Optima sells SLA batteries intended for vehicles. I don't know of any > car manufacture that uses one as the OEM battery, but I've seen plenty > of them in cars. Whether they have any real advantage over conventional > low maintenance automotive batteries in that application, I don't know. I don't think Optima is SLA - ie gel electrolytic. It's wet but spill proof. http://www.optimabattery.co.uk/english_optima/technical.htm Love all the blurb about how long they last. If only they backed that up with a warranty. Signature*For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > > Although they're called sealed, car batteries are actually low maintenance > > > types which are still wet. Some serious off roaders may use SLA - but [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW > To e-mail, change noise into sound. http://www.interstateallbattery.com/vehicle_batteries.htm says their Optima batteries are not gel cell. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! > http://www.interstateallbattery.com/vehicle_batteries.htm says their > Optima batteries are not gel cell. Likely AGM. Gel is a gelled electolyte (seems obvious), and the gel can have holes blown in it (from gas bubbles) when unhappy charging events occur. The holes don't heal. AGM is a liquid electolye Absorbed in a Glass Mat. If bubbling happens, it can "heal" - though if too much bubbling happens, the valve will open to release the pressure (Valve Regulated Lead Acid, or VRLA, rather than "sealed" in a minor technical sense) - you can't put water back in, so gassing is best avoided, or the battery dies soon afterwards. SignatureCats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by > > http://www.interstateallbattery.com/vehicle_batteries.htm says their > > Optima batteries are not gel cell. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "sealed" in a minor technical sense) - you can't put water back in, so > gassing is best avoided, or the battery dies soon afterwards. Interstate claims they can be installed upside down so if they vent, it will cause lots of problems. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! > > > Optima sells SLA batteries intended for vehicles. I don't know of > > > any car manufacture that uses one as the OEM battery, but I've seen [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Love all the blurb about how long they last. If only they backed that > > up with a warranty. > http://www.interstateallbattery.com/vehicle_batteries.htm says their > Optima batteries are not gel cell. Right - thanks for that. In the UK Optima cost about 4 times a decent other make for cars - so to me are basically a con. Unless they lasted 4 times as long - and backed it up with a warranty. Signature*(over a sketch of the titanic) "The boat sank - get over it Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > > > Optima sells SLA batteries intended for vehicles. I don't know of > > > > any car manufacture that uses one as the OEM battery, but I've seen [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > other make for cars - so to me are basically a con. Unless they lasted 4 > times as long - and backed it up with a warranty. These are sold for off road use where you may roll the vehicle, and race cars for the lower weight. They are more expensive than some batteries, but the conventional types have gone sky high, as well. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! > > Right - thanks for that. In the UK Optima cost about 4 times a decent > > other make for cars - so to me are basically a con. Unless they lasted 4 > > times as long - and backed it up with a warranty. > These are sold for off road use where you may roll the vehicle, and > race cars for the lower weight. They are more expensive than some > batteries, but the conventional types have gone sky high, as well. Talking about UK prices they're even more sky high. And are advertised here as being a viable alternative for ordinary car use. But they're not. As regards the weight thing they may be lower weight - but they are also lower capacity in terms of A/hr for all but the smallest cars. Signature*Indian Driver - Smoke signals only* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> > > Optima sells SLA batteries intended for vehicles. I don't know of >> > > any car manufacture that uses one as the OEM battery, but I've seen [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >other make for cars - so to me are basically a con. Unless they lasted 4 >times as long - and backed it up with a warranty. My 2001 truck battery is the original. Why do I care if it'll last four times longer? > >Right - thanks for that. In the UK Optima cost about 4 times a decent > >other make for cars - so to me are basically a con. Unless they lasted 4 > >times as long - and backed it up with a warranty. > My 2001 truck battery is the original. Why do I care if it'll last > four times longer? Indeed - that sort of life isn't uncommon these days for a quality battery. Which makes Optima's claims even more ludicrous. Signature*I want it all and I want it delivered Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>> Optima sells SLA batteries intended for vehicles. I don't know of >>>> any car manufacture that uses one as the OEM battery, but I've seen [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > other make for cars - so to me are basically a con. Unless they lasted 4 > times as long - and backed it up with a warranty. It's the same way here. They are backed by a warranty, but I don't think they have a great advantage for the typical driver. Seems like they'd be a good buy for a serious 4x4 though, not my cup of tea but some of those guys do some pretty crazy stuff, angles and water submersion that would be hard on an ordinary automotive battery. I've seen banks of them used in a few electric car conversions as well. >> On 7 Jun 2009 20:50, wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Sealed batteries use a gelled electolyte, and so the charge rate must > be limited to prevent outgassing. Gel electrolyte batteries use gel electrolyte, There are wet batteries marketed as sealed. These typically have no user accessable ports to access the electrolyte, but will still leak if inverted etc.. "zero-maintenance" car batteries often have the electolyte ports under the label. > Within that limit, they are supposed to tolerate extended charging > times because the internal chemistry changes some to compensate. yeah they have a catylist that oxidises most of the free hydrogen back to water. as long as you don't overheat them they can tolerate some overcharging. > My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old > but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights > on). > My fancy new modern charger senses a poor battery and only puts in > very little charge. > I used to use a really old charger to charge this battery > successfully. I opened up the old charger and saw it was only a > transformer and a big rectifier. That's it. No soothing. > Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? An ancient crude charger is actually quite good at recovering a flat and possibly sulphated battery - it will output quite a high voltage with a high impedance load, which is needed to help combat the sulphation. However, after the battery has started to take a reasonable charge rate, ditch it and use your modern one. Signature*Would a fly without wings be called a walk? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > However, after the battery has started to take a reasonable charge rate, > ditch it and use your modern one. I keep one just for that purpose & then connect the new fangled smart charger soon as the batt can take it. From experience though, if connecting a totally flat batt get ready to switch off the old charger before the needle goes off the scale followed by a big bang as the bridge rectifier decides its had enough!! > I keep one just for that purpose & then connect the new fangled smart > charger soon as the batt can take it. From experience though, if > connecting a totally flat batt get ready to switch off the old charger > before the needle goes off the scale followed by a big bang as the > bridge rectifier decides its had enough!! My ancient one has a series resistor to limit the current - and has both mains and DC fuses. Signature*Letting a cat out of the bag is easier than putting it back in * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > > I keep one just for that purpose & then connect the new fangled smart > > charger soon as the batt can take it. From experience though, if [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My ancient one has a series resistor to limit the current - and has both > mains and DC fuses. The one I built in the '60s has a Variac to set the charging current, ot float voltage. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >> > I keep one just for that purpose & then connect the new fangled smart >> > charger soon as the batt can take it. From experience though, if [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The one I built in the '60s has a Variac to set the charging current, > ot float voltage. how do you deal with mains fluctuations? > > The one I built in the '60s has a Variac to set the charging current, > > ot float voltage. > > how do you deal with mains fluctuations? How do you do it with any battery charger? Hint: You don't. It would require the AC line to be well out of tolerance, either high or low before the charging current would change more than a few percent. That is what a transformer does. I used a 24 volt 15 amp transformer after the variac. That reduces the change in line voltage by a factor of 5 to 1. The variac raises it to around 7 to one at the five amp charge rate I use most of the time, so the line voltage would have to go up to 128.4 for a 1% rise in the transformer's secondary voltage. The change in charging current is quite small. If the battery is quite low, or dying I have a garage type charger that will start most car engines, even with no battery in the vehicle. It has no adjustments, other than a mechanical timer to set the charge time. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! On Jul 4, 2:18 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > The one I built in the '60s has a Variac to set the charging current, > > > ot float voltage. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > -- > You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! LOL...you have no idea what you are talking about. TMT > On Jul 4, 2:18 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > TMT Yawn SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! On Jul 4, 5:25 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Jul 4, 2:18 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I THINK SAW YOU AT THE FIREWERX DISPLAY BURRRRRRP I AM PROTEUS >>> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a >>> bit old but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > scale followed by a big bang as the bridge rectifier decides > its had enough!! I'm the OP. Oddly enough when I used my old charger on the almost flat low maintenance battery, the ammeter needle hardly moved at all. After a few minutes the needle was about midway on the scale where it more or less stayed for a few hours. What was happening? Didn't see any great rush of current as you might have once had! PHOTOS: front = http://i44.tinypic.com/wuq7p5.jpg transformer = http://i44.tinypic.com/2dmfsef.jpg rectifier = http://i40.tinypic.com/2i0dnyp.jpg >I'm the OP. Oddly enough when I used my old charger on the almost >flat low maintenance battery, the ammeter needle hardly moved at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >What was happening? Didn't see any great rush of current as you >might have once had! That sounds like a classic symptom of the battery being badly sulphated. Lead-acid batteries run on... well, lead and (sulphuric) acid. The electrochemical reaction which produces current, is one in which the lead reacts with the acid. converting the lead to lead sulphate. When you re-charge the battery, the reaction is reversed... the lead sulphate is broken up into lead (metallic) and sulphate ion, which goes back into the electrolyte to once again form sulphuric acid. The lead sulphate which is formed during discharge has a couple of different crystal forms. The initial deposition of sulphate isn't too difficult to dissolve... but it converts spontaneously to a different crystal form which is hard, difficult to dissolve, and forms an effective insulator. I think that's what happened to your battery. When you initially tried to recharge it, the plates were covered with a uniform layer of lead sulphate, and were thus well insulated from one another. Very little current could flow. After a few minutes, the relatively high voltage from the old-style charger managed to break down some of the sulphate layer, allowing an increase in the current flow. There are techniques and devices on the market which are intended to reverse the sulphation of batteries. They usually involve some form of high-voltage pulse charging, sometimes using an inductive "tank" circuit to create very short radio-frequency pulses. This is supposed to break down the insoluble sulphate crystals. Some people swear by these devices, other people swear that they're useless. Deep-discharging most car batteries (low-maintenance or otherwise) is usually said to be very bad for them. The extensive conversion of lead to lead sulphate (and then back again) damages the structure of the lead plates, and the plates begin to crumble and disintegrate, greatly shortening the battery's lifetime. SignatureDave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! >>I'm the OP. Oddly enough when I used my old charger on the almost >>flat low maintenance battery, the ammeter needle hardly moved at [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >the lead plates, and the plates begin to crumble and disintegrate, >greatly shortening the battery's lifetime. I can't remember for how long i have known that deep cycling was bas for lead-acid batteries, it is nice to have some insight into the damage process. > >Deep-discharging most car batteries (low-maintenance or otherwise) is > >usually said to be very bad for them. The extensive conversion of > >lead to lead sulphate (and then back again) damages the structure of > >the lead plates, and the plates begin to crumble and disintegrate, > >greatly shortening the battery's lifetime. > I can't remember for how long i have known that deep cycling was bas > for lead-acid batteries, it is nice to have some insight into the > damage process. I remember buying an AC Delco battery years ago - and it had a three year unconditional warranty if used on a car, but only one if used in a golf buggy, etc. SignatureDave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>I'm the OP. Oddly enough when I used my old charger on the almost >>flat low maintenance battery, the ammeter needle hardly moved at [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >the lead plates, and the plates begin to crumble and disintegrate, >greatly shortening the battery's lifetime. I have resurected some batteries that have sit around that initially soak very little input current. I have left it go for a week sometimes. I need to try that with some old gel cells I have. After overcharging them, they partially clear up the sulfation. I mostly use deep discharge batteries in the truck. They seem to hold up better after complete discharge, while the truck sits for long periods. The thicker plates seem to last longer. I keep thinking of hooking up that solar cell charger but never have yet. greg > I have resurected some batteries that have sit around that initially soak very > little input current. I have left it go for a week sometimes. I need to try [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > greg > They do hold up better, you can still kill them, but deep cycle batteries tend to have solid plates which are much more resistant to damage from sulfation, they do however have a much lower capacity to begin with due to the lower surface area vs the porous plates. >> I have resurected some batteries that have sit around that initially >> soak very [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > damage from sulfation, they do however have a much lower capacity to > begin with due to the lower surface area vs the porous plates. Actually the capicity is similar, it's the peak current that you compromise on. >> I have resurected some batteries that have sit around that initially soak very >> little input current. I have left it go for a week sometimes. I need to try [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >damage from sulfation, they do however have a much lower capacity to >begin with due to the lower surface area vs the porous plates. It is more a matter of degree rather than a sharp distinction from what i have been able to find of the details. >My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? Electrons are electrons to the battery. If they are at high enough potential to cause a charge condition on the battery, they will. >>My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >>but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Electrons are electrons to the battery. If they are at high enough > potential to cause a charge condition on the battery, they will. Well!!! My electrons are smaller than your electrons; take THAT!! >> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a >> bit old but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > enough potential to cause a charge condition on the battery, > they will. I was kind of worrying that unsmoothed AC might not be too good for the battery. >>> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a >>> bit old but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I was kind of worrying that unsmoothed AC might not be too good for > the battery. That's what the diodes are for, it never actually alternates. >>> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a >>> bit old but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I was kind of worrying that unsmoothed AC might not be too good for >the battery. You said you saw a diode, so how is it that you forgot that it is NOT AC? >>> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a >>> bit old but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I was kind of worrying that unsmoothed AC might not be too good for > the battery. It's not unsmoothed AC, it's unsmoothed DC. The battery doesn't care. > My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old > but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? Actually, that is *better*; the pulses tend to de-sulphate the battery. > My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old > but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? Not *too* many years ago (mid 70's), my dad had to retire his battery charger. The filament for the edison valve finally burned out and there are no replacements. 120 VAC to a transformer with two secondary windings. One powered valve filament, the other when to cathode and positive cable. Negative cable came from plate of the 'valve'. Worked fine for many years (originally purchased by my grandfather back in the 20's or 30's). daestrom P.S. Mind you, you did have to keep an eye on the battery and when it started bubbling/boiling, it was time to shut it off (big ole rotary snapswitch on the line side) >> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Worked fine for many years (originally purchased by my grandfather back > in the 20's or 30's). Of course by then the tube (valve) could have easily been replaced by a modern silicon rectifier. >>> My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >>> but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Of course by then the tube (valve) could have easily been replaced by a > modern silicon rectifier. Yes, it certainly could have been upgraded. But then you wouldn't get to see the light from across the garage bay :-) Besides the newer charger had some nice features that are pretty standard now, like reverse polarity protection and trickle finish. daestrom We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "daestrom" <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> saying something like: >Not *too* many years ago (mid 70's), my dad had to retire his battery >charger. The filament for the edison valve finally burned out and there are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Worked fine for many years (originally purchased by my grandfather back in >the 20's or 30's). Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state rectifier, just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. Otoh, valve rectifiers are still being made in China, afaik. >We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >drugs began to take hold. I remember "daestrom" <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. >Otoh, valve rectifiers are still being made in China, afaik. They are still being made in a lot of places. Likely just not the one he was wanting. On Jun 15, 7:24 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote: > On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:05:31 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - EAT EXCREMENT TROLL I AM PROTEUS > >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state rectifier, > >just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. > >Otoh, valve rectifiers are still being made in China, afaik. > They are still being made in a lot of places. Likely just not the one > he was wanting. They're certainly still made for supplying the HT to valve amps etc - but for high current low voltage? Wouldn't have thought there was much demand. Signature*Marathon runners with bad footwear suffer the agony of defeat* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state rectifier, >> >just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >They're certainly still made for supplying the HT to valve amps etc - but >for high current low voltage? Wouldn't have thought there was much demand. Solid state is more efficient. >>> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state rectifier, >>> >just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Solid state is more efficient. Tungar rectifiers are certainly less efficient but they cannot be directly replaced by semiconductors because the voltage drop is much different, several volts for a Tungar and the charger would then produce too hi an output voltage. John G. > >>> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state rectifier, > >>> >just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > several volts for a Tungar and the charger would then produce too hi an > output voltage. That is why he is called 'dimbulb' or 'Always Wrong', no matter which ignorant nym he trolls with: Abbey Somebody <abnormal@castlefrankenstein.org> AnimalMagic <AnimalMagic@petersbackyard.org> Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> Bart! <B@rt_The_Sheriff_Is_A_Nig**!.org> Bungalow Bill <BugalowBill@AbbeyRoad.UKCOM> Capt. Cave Man <ItIsSoEasyACaveManCanDoIt@upyers.org> ChairmanOfTheBored <RUBored@crackasmile.org> Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers <theslipperman@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> Corbomite Carrie <Corbomite@maneuver.org> DarkMatter <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> Do I really need to say? <rael@thescree.org> Dorothy with the Red Shoes on <Dorothy@notinkansas.org> Dr. Heywood R. Floyd <Heywood@thebarattheendofthemonolith.org> FatBytestard <FatBytestard@somewheronyourharddrive.org> FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor <FunkShunPoignter@yermomma.org> FunkyPunk FieldEffectTrollsistor <FunkShunPointer@yermomma.org> GoldIntermetallicEmbrittlement <GoldIntermetallicEmbrittlement@youdontknowjack.org> Hattori Hanzo <OutintheSnow@billsbackyard.org> Herbert John \Jackie\" Gleason" <BufordTJustice@Texarkanacops.gov> HiggsField <higgdfield@whutthableapduyoukno.org> IAmTheSlime <TheSlimeFromYourVideo@oozingacrossyourlivingroomfloor.org> ItsASecretDummy <secretasianman@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> LargeMarge <LargeMarge@thetentwoposition.org> MadManMoon <TheWholePlanetIsMine@hereandnow.org> MakeNoAttemptToAdjustYourSet <DoNotAttemptToAdjustYourSet@anytime.org> MassiveProng@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org <MassiveProng@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> Mr.Eko <ekointhedirt@lostisland.org> Mr. Haney <mrhaney@thebarattheendofthefarmroad.org> Mycelium <myceliumgrows@underyourshrooms.org> Neanderthal <dance@gottafindawomanrighton.org> Phat Bytestard <PhatBytestard@getinmahharddrive.org> RoyLFuchs <RoyLFuchs@urfargingicehole.org> SkyPilot <somewhere@theedgeofspace.org> SoothSayer <SaySooth@TheMonastery.org> Spurious Response <SpuriousResponse@cleansignal.org> StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> Sum Ting Wong <SumTingWong@thebarattheendoftheVenusianLightnigBoltmonolith.org> SuspendedInGaffa <suspendedingaffa@kateshouse.org> The Great Attractor <SuperM@ssiveBlackHoleAtTheCenterOfTheMilkyWayGalaxy.org> TheGlimmerMan <justaglimmer@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> TheKraken <ReachUpandSuckYouDowntotheDepths@yup.org> The Last Mimsy <mimsy@TheOtherSideoftheLookingGlass.org> TheQuickBrownFox <thequickbrownfox@overthelazydog.org> "TutAmongUs@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org" <TutAmongUs@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> UltimatePatriot <UltimatePatriot@thebestcountry.org> UpGrade <UpGrade@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> ValleyGirl <LuvYerNailz@LikeIWouldGiveIt.Comeon> SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >> >>> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state rectifier, >> >>> >just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > That is why he is called 'dimbulb' or 'Always Wrong', no matter which >ignorant nym he trolls with: We were having a conversation, not a pissing match, you retarded twit. <<<<<Snip>>>>> >> That is why he is called 'dimbulb' or 'Always Wrong', no matter which >>ignorant nym he trolls with: > > We were having a conversation, not a pissing match, you retarded twit. There is no conversation possible with you Archie; it's always a pissing match because of your foul mouth. And you are always the one being pissed on. Are you ready to explain your statement of celibacy yet? > <<<<<Snip>>>>> > >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Are you ready to explain your statement of celibacy yet? isn't it obvious? Nothing on earth is desperate enough to get laid, that they will stoop to dimbulb's level. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >>>> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state rectifier, >>>> >just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >John G. Diode stacks have bigger drops. >>>>> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state >>>>> >rectifier, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Diode stacks have bigger drops. With a forward drop of something like 0.7 volts how many do you need in a stack to get towards the 6 or 7 volts forward drop of a tungar and why would you need a stack to get a reverse voltge of a mere 20 volts.? John G. >>>>>> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state >>>>>> >rectifier, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >John G. You don't "need" a stack, but if you "need" to drop volts, and you are using a diode, you need a stack, no? Our HV diodes, though not capable of such currents, dropped as much as 20 volts. There are like 60 series elements in an HV diode that drops that much. >>>>>>> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state >>>>>>> >rectifier, [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > 20 volts. There are like 60 series elements in an HV diode that drops > that much. Just in case you did not read what we are talking about.. It was replacing Tungar rectifiers in battery chargers. Battery chargers rarely need 60 series elements to make a HV stack and whats more your 60 diodes would not be much good for 6 amps. Please try and stay on topic. John G. >>>>>>>> >Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state >>>>>>>> >rectifier, [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >John G. We do not need to drop 20 volts so 60 would not be needed. I was merely telling you about how HV diodes have a high voltage drop. For a few volts, it would obviously by a smaller stack, AND of course one would use diodes that CAN handle higher currents. Stop trying to officiate like the retards think they do, and YOU stay on the f.cking topic, jackass. >>>>> On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:53:45 +1000, "John G." >>>>> <greentest@ozemail.com.au> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > Stop trying to officiate like the retards think they do, and YOU stay > on the f.cking topic, jackass. I thought this was about Battery chargers and not f******. A SMALLER stack would of course be just ONE diode (or 2 or 4 in other arrangements), even for a supply voltage of much more than 20. John G. >>>>>> On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:53:45 +1000, "John G." >>>>>> <greentest@ozemail.com.au> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > >I thought this was about Battery chargers and not f******. Don't be f.cking brainless. >A SMALLER stack would of course be just ONE diode (or 2 or 4 in other >arrangements), even for a supply voltage of much more than 20. No. THAT would be an ARRAY of diodes, in a half or full wave bridge. A STACK IS a stack. There is only one configuration, SERIES. Stack until The desired Voltage potential handling capacity has been sufficiently exceeded (for the HV application), OR stack until the desired voltage drop has been reached in the case of needing a drop in your circuit. ONE diode is NOT ANY kind of stack at all, so there is no "of course" about it. The whole reason for a stack is to increase the maximum voltage that can be rectified. The secondary effect is that more voltage is dropped. Of course it would be higher cost, and nobody would design a device with such a set-up, but in this context. The context of repairing a device one can no longer find the original part for... for that, it would suffice. I believe it was the bulb rectifier chargers that had a bad-news side effect. They were half-wave, directly coupled to the line. If a shop had a large one, & not much other loads; the pole pig transformer core would start to saturate with DC. And when it did... it would fail rather spectacularly.... as in KaBoom... SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 >>>>> Would have been a simple job to put in a normal solid state rectifier, >>>>> just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > John G. You'd probably have to do like the old radio guys do replacing selenium rectifiers and add a suitable power resistor in series with the diode. > We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the > drugs began to take hold. I remember "daestrom" <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > just to keep a historically interesting bit of kit working. > Otoh, valve rectifiers are still being made in China, afaik. I suspect it was something like a Tungar argon rectifier or a mercury vapor rectifier and not a conventional thermionic diode as is still made today for tube (valve) audio and such. You need something low impedance for a battery charger. >> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >> drugs began to take hold. I remember "daestrom" <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >today for tube (valve) audio and such. You need something low impedance >for a battery charger. Probably Mercury Vapor. The thing is likely worth more now dead than it was new. >> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >> drugs began to take hold. I remember "daestrom" <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > today for tube (valve) audio and such. You need something low impedance > for a battery charger. All I can remember is that it looked remarkably like a large, old-fashioned, light-bulb. Had a screw-in 'Edison' bulb base as well. The only difference was a single heavy wire also ran to a terminal at the top of the bulb, opposite the base. The terminal entered the glass and ended in a simple, flat plate above the bulb filament. Remember thinking it was just like I had read in a book on Edison about how he first discovered the 'Edison effect'. That a heated filament would give off electrons to a positively charged plate. daestrom >>> We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >>> drugs began to take hold. I remember "daestrom" <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > daestrom See this link http://radioheaven.homestead.com/Tungar.html John G. > "daestrom" <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message <snip> >>> I suspect it was something like a Tungar argon rectifier or a mercury >>> vapor rectifier and not a conventional thermionic diode as is still made [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > http://radioheaven.homestead.com/Tungar.html While the 'bulb' shown looks familar, the charger in question didn't come in a box like that. As I recall it hat a rotary snap switch on the front and a circular tapped switch to adjust the charging current and one rather old-fasioned ammeter. Turned it on and checked the current, adjusting the tap to suit. But that definitly looks like the 'bulb' :-) Thanks for the memory jogger... daestrom >My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old >but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? It is actually better than you might expect. It turns out that for battery and plating type reactions pulsed DC actually works better in most cases. It has something to do solution kinetics. And as other posters have noted, you gotta monitor that old thing, and about 4 hours max per session, preferably not more than 1 to 2 hours per session. We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> saying something like: > And as other >posters have noted, you gotta monitor that old thing, and about 4 >hours max per session, preferably not more than 1 to 2 hours per >session. That's a perfectly ordinary home-use 4A charger, of which millions were made. As charging state rose, the current fell and it took ages for the battery to start bubbling, usually a day or so. Still best to have it on a timer, I would agree, but 4 hours per session is nonsense. >We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Still best to have it on a timer, I would agree, but 4 hours per session >is nonsense. |Septics, eh ? Signaturegeoff >We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Still best to have it on a timer, I would agree, but 4 hours per session >is nonsense. By the time the battery is visibly bubbling you have damaged irreparably. >>made. As charging state rose, the current fell and it took ages for the >>battery to start bubbling, usually a day or so. >>Still best to have it on a timer, I would agree, but 4 hours per session >>is nonsense. >By the time the battery is visibly bubbling you have damaged >irreparably. I believe that this depends on the specific battery type. As I understand it, classic lead-acid flooded storage cells are often deliberately given a periodic "equalizing charge", at a voltage high enough to cause electrolysis and bubbling. This mixes up the electrolyte, reversing the stratification of water and acid which can occur in these cells. One then adds some water to replace what was lost in gas form due to the electrolysis. Done properly this doesn't seem to damage batteries designed for it. This shouldn't be done to gel cells (or AGM cells, I imagine)... I believe it *will* damage those. I'm not sure how tolerant modern "no-maintenance" grid-plate car batteries are to this sort of overcharge. SignatureDave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! >>>made. As charging state rose, the current fell and it took ages for the >>>battery to start bubbling, usually a day or so. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >lost in gas form due to the electrolysis. Done properly this doesn't >seem to damage batteries designed for it. That is not the style, action, or purpose of an equalizing charge. No bubbling is involved in anything i have found on equalizing charging. >This shouldn't be done to gel cells (or AGM cells, I imagine)... I >believe it *will* damage those. > >I'm not sure how tolerant modern "no-maintenance" grid-plate car >batteries are to this sort of overcharge. >That is not the style, action, or purpose of an equalizing charge. No >bubbling is involved in anything i have found on equalizing charging. Interesting - thanks. I've seen articles posted which assert that the equalizing and de-stratification does involve some amount of gassing... and now that I look, I see other references which either don't mention gassing during equalization charge or which state that a proper equalizing charge should be prolonged, slow, and should definitely _not_ cause gassing. SignatureDave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! > Interesting - thanks. I've seen articles posted which assert that the > equalizing and de-stratification does involve some amount of > gassing... and now that I look, I see other references which either > don't mention gassing during equalization charge or which state that a > proper equalizing charge should be prolonged, slow, and should > definitely _not_ cause gassing. Every wet battery I've ever seen starts producing the odd gas bubble some time before its fully charged. Signature*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. [...] > Every wet battery I've ever seen starts producing the odd gas bubble > some time before its fully charged. Indeed. Used to get lots of bubbles from the fork lift truck batteries where I worked. So much that the insurers refused to let them be charged inside the building. Each battery weighed two tonnes, so I suppose it was to be expected. Chris SignatureRemove prejudice to reply. > Indeed. Used to get lots of bubbles from the fork lift truck batteries > where I worked. So much that the insurers refused to let them be charged > inside the building. Yes - explosions in battery charging rooms in garages etc were very common. Signature*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant. Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Indeed. Used to get lots of bubbles from the fork lift truck batteries >> where I worked. So much that the insurers refused to let them be charged >> inside the building. > >Yes - explosions in battery charging rooms in garages etc were very common. OTOH look at the practices, procedures, and policies in Telco battery rooms. >>> Indeed. Used to get lots of bubbles from the fork lift truck batteries >>> where I worked. So much that the insurers refused to let them be charged [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >OTOH look at the practices, procedures, and policies in Telco battery >rooms. Really? I was in a Tesco battery area the other day and noticed nothing special. SignatureRoger Hunt >>>> Indeed. Used to get lots of bubbles from the fork lift truck batteries >>>> where I worked. So much that the insurers refused to let them be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Really? I was in a Tesco battery area the other day and noticed nothing > special. You missed it, they had a special on AAA's couple weeks ago. >>>>> Indeed. Used to get lots of bubbles from the fork lift truck batteries >>>>> where I worked. So much that the insurers refused to let them be [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >You missed it, they had a special on AAA's couple weeks ago. I've never seen a lead/acid AAA battery. SignatureRoger Hunt >>You missed it, they had a special on AAA's couple weeks ago. >> >I've never seen a lead/acid AAA battery. I do not see where he qualified his remark with a battery type. Doh! But you keep right on hunting, Hunt. >>>You missed it, they had a special on AAA's couple weeks ago. >>> >>I've never seen a lead/acid AAA battery. > > I do not see where he qualified his remark with a battery type. Doh! >But you keep right on hunting, Hunt. OK, O Wise One, how long should I keep searching for the Holy Cell? SignatureRoger Hunt >>>> Indeed. Used to get lots of bubbles from the fork lift truck batteries >>>> where I worked. So much that the insurers refused to let them be charged [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Really? I was in a Tesco battery area the other day and noticed nothing >special. Isn't Tesco a gas station? > Isn't Tesco a gas station? They are a major supermarket chain but they do have filling stations at many of their sites. I believe some now do have gas (LPG) on the forecourt but most still only sell petrol and diesel. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Each battery weighed two tonnes, so I suppose it was to be expected. Try charging submarine batteries. About 128 individual 'cells', each one weighing over several ton. Finishing rate was 200 A, the 3-hour discharge rate was 1750A. And being on a submarine, you had to recirculate the H2 generated and send it to a 'burner'. When doing an equalizing charge at the finishing rate, the gas evolved was almost perfect 2H2 + 1O2 (electrolysis of H2O). Boat's O2 content would rise with the H2 content (until the 'burner' could catch up with the battery). daestrom > Try charging submarine batteries. About 128 individual 'cells', each one > weighing over several ton. Were the cells charged individually, or did they just do several at once at a fixed rate? I've wondered before if there's any sense in trying to charge car battery cells individually, but I suspect it's just not possible without dedicated terminals for each cell. (sometimes it's useful with an ailing battery to stick probes down through the cell covers and see what's going on with individual cells) >> Try charging submarine batteries. About 128 individual 'cells', each one >> weighing over several ton. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > an ailing battery to stick probes down through the cell covers and see > what's going on with individual cells) All cells connected in series and charged/used that way. Disconnecting an individual cell is possible, and sometimes done when a cell goes bad (the jumpers used to jump across the bad cell are quite large, IIRC six conductors for + and six for - all about the size of two fingers). Each cell does have a tiny lead that comes out to a test jack on the 'individual cell voltage panel' where you could measure the voltage of each cell to spot poor performers. daestrom On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:17:03 -0700, dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) wrote: >In article <8aul35ha6ap4v3aomiu9u7epdjlcuftvn4@4ax.com>, >JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >lost in gas form due to the electrolysis. Done properly this doesn't >seem to damage batteries designed for it. That is not the style, action, or purpose of an equalizing charge. No bubbling is involved in anything i have found on equalizing charging. ---------- Beg to differ. Equalizing charge is typically charge at the voltage limit that will *not* produce gassing until current drops to a low value (often 20 or 30 hour rating). Then hold current and let voltage rise above the gassing limit. Because voltage is above gassing limit, gassing occurs. Hold current until voltage stops rising for about 1/2 hour and terminate the charge. Cheap store-bought chargers will simply have two voltage settings, 'float' and 'equalizer'. But 'equalizer' done with this constant-voltage type unit doesn't do as good a job as the method I described above. The gassing does promote mixing, but the primary thing is to charge all cells until voltage stops rising. Then you can be sure that all sulphates have been converted back to acid in the electrolyte. Has to be done at a low current to avoid excessive heating and water loss. daestrom >>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >>drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >By the time the battery is visibly bubbling you have damaged >irreparably. ALL lead acid batteries (not gel cells) bubble while charging. That is the normal process. That is why you keep sparks away from charging batteries. It is a normal process. >>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >>drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >By the time the battery is visibly bubbling you have damaged >irreparably. Where did you get that nonsense? One of the benefits of equalizer charging is that it will form bubbles of gas that helps to stir the electrolyte and mix it to a more uniform concentration. We deliberately do this to a lot of different lead acid batteries. What *really* hurts a battery is overheating it or discharging it so low that you reverse one or more cells. But charging to the point of gassing is not a serious problem. daestrom (former submarine battery-charging electrician) >>>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >>>drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >daestrom >(former submarine battery-charging electrician) I used to rock my batteries several times before a charge session. Let's have the "placing a lead acid battery on a concrete floor will discharge it" discussion. Maybe we should submit that one to Myth Busters. In alt.engineering.electrical Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers <theslipperman@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: | I used to rock my batteries several times before a charge session. | | Let's have the "placing a lead acid battery on a concrete floor will | discharge it" discussion. | | Maybe we should submit that one to Myth Busters. I wanna see some batteries explode! Can they get 1000000 amps through it? Signature----------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ | | (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ | ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >In alt.engineering.electrical Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers <theslipperman@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I wanna see some batteries explode! Can they get 1000000 amps through it? Maybe we can get them to go after the world record for size of a Tesla coil. They'd probably have to have a sub-station put in. >In alt.engineering.electrical Chieftain of the Carpet Crawlers <theslipperman@th >ebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I wanna see some batteries explode! Can they get 1000000 amps through it? I was very close to that once I reckon, with a motorcycle battery, when I neglected to remove the vent plug before charging. The whole case was bulging ominously by the time I noticed. SignatureRoger Hunt > I was very close to that once I reckon, with a motorcycle battery, when > I neglected to remove the vent plug before charging. > The whole case was bulging ominously by the time I noticed. Every low maintenance wet battery I've seen has a vent to stop this happening. Often with a plastic tube attached to vent the fumes out of harm's way. Genuine SLA have a vent too - but no 'vent plug' Signature*TEAMWORK...means never having to take all the blame yourself * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> I was very close to that once I reckon, with a motorcycle battery, when >> I neglected to remove the vent plug before charging. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >happening. Often with a plastic tube attached to vent the fumes out of >harm's way. Genuine SLA have a vent too - but no 'vent plug' This was a small (easy to overcharge and froth) basic liquid lead/acid battery, a Yuasa YB3L, IIRC. All cells breathe to a vent at the side, then a plastic tube downwards. When it is supplied wet, this vent is plugged for obvious reasons, and it is easy to forget to remove it before the initial trickle charge I used to give them. SignatureRoger Hunt > Where did you get that nonsense? One of the benefits of equalizer > charging is that it will form bubbles of gas that helps to stir the > electrolyte and mix it to a more uniform concentration. I remember my parents always opening the fillers on the top of the battery to let the gas out. (why I don't know, they vent when you charge them on the car anyway) Then they got one of those fancy auto vent batteries with the lift up vent cover.. they decided that they needed to lift that when charging it. Came back to a floor covered in battery acid as lifting the strip closed the vents, really intelligent design that. So gassing can do a lot of harm if the user expects different behaviour to what happens. >> Where did you get that nonsense? One of the benefits of equalizer >> charging is that it will form bubbles of gas that helps to stir the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >So gassing can do a lot of harm if the user expects different behaviour to >what happens. Gassing doesn't do harm. Dumb users do harm. Just like with guns. >>>We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the >>>drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >daestrom >(former submarine battery-charging electrician) The bubbling is mainly released hydrogen. This results in an unwanted excess of sulfate ions. You should be able to figure it out from there. On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:51:55 -0400, "daestrom" <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> wrote: >>On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:14:29 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon >><grimly4REMOVE@REMOVEgmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >daestrom >(former submarine battery-charging electrician) The bubbling is mainly released hydrogen. This results in an unwanted excess of sulfate ions. You should be able to figure it out from there. Not on the finishing rate of an equalizer. Then the gas is almost perfect 2H2 + 1O2. That 'excess sulfate ions' is what you want in order to raise the concentration of acid in the electrolyte near the beginning of the charge (that's why s.g. goes up when charging). Been there, and qualified charging electrician to do that. daestrom We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> saying something like: >>That's a perfectly ordinary home-use 4A charger, of which millions were >>made. As charging state rose, the current fell and it took ages for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >By the time the battery is visibly bubbling you have damaged >irreparably. Umm.. lemme see. How many years have I been involved with automotive batteries? Many. How many batteries have I wrecked by overcharging them? None. How many batteries have I seen bubbling? Quite a few. Note that I don't particlarly recommend leaving the battery on a charger until it's bubbling vigorously, like a deep-fat frier, but if it happens it happens and so far it's not damaged any flooded lead-acid cells I've had. Anyway, that's why I have them on a timer. > We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the > drugs began to take hold. I remember "JosephKK"<quiettechblue@yahoo.com> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > How many batteries have I seen bubbling? > Quite a few. The only time I've ever seen a battery damaged by overcharging was when the voltage regulator failed on a friend's car in a way that the output was much higher than it should be, and it boiled almost all the water out. > My car battery is oversized for the car. The battery is a bit old > but usually works fine. The battery is flat (I left the lights [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is this ok for a car battery or is it way too crude? A related question.... What should the open circuit voltage on a battery charger be? And when one's charger has its rectifier fail, how should a person repair the charger? Thanks TMT In article <ae021e4e-811b-4db8-a415-cc2a4d6231d8@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, > A related question.... > What should the open circuit voltage on a battery charger be? How long is a piece of string? With a crude transformer/rectifier one, depends on the transformer design. And the type of rectifier. And the device measuring the voltage. ;-) What matters is the voltage under load. > And when one's charger has its rectifier fail, how should a person > repair the charger? These days silicon diodes. Suitably heatsinked. Signature*Money isn‘t everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > In article > <ae021e4e-811b-4db8-a415-cc2a4d6231d8@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > These days silicon diodes. Suitably heatsinked. TMT is a troll who usually hangs around rec.crafts.metalworking SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! On Jun 23, 3:30 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > In article > > <ae021e4e-811b-4db8-a415-cc2a4d623...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > -- > You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! LOL...TMT is a poster who doesn't take crap from idiots like Michael. Post any conservative drivel today Michael? TMT >> In article >> <ae021e4e-811b-4db8-a415-cc2a4d6231d8@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > TMT is a troll who usually hangs around rec.crafts.metalworking Terrell is an Alzheimers ridden, senile old dumbfuck that actually thinks he is informing folks about dangerous things in Usenet. Dumbfucks like him are the real danger. He was probably behind that bill that was for declaring all opinions about religion as a terrorist act or other such Terrell like retarded baby bullshit. <<<<<Snip>>>>> > Dumbfucks like him are the real danger. He was probably behind that >bill that was for declaring all opinions about religion as a terrorist >act or other such Terrell like retarded baby bullshit. And speaking about dumbfucks, hey Archie - are you ready to tell us about the time you claimed you were celibate? And don't post that pussy "cite" sillyness. Just answer the question of whether you said it, period. On Jun 23, 4:30 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > In article > > <ae021e4e-811b-4db8-a415-cc2a4d623...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - Show quoted text - AND THAT MAKES YOU THE RESIDENT EXPERT ON TROLLS ???? I AM PROTEUSD In article <dcde022e-8553-4326-8ffd-18c7ef35f5ff@q14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, > AND THAT MAKES YOU THE RESIDENT EXPERT ON TROLLS ???? > I AM PROTEUSD Who apparently can't even shout his name correctly. Signature*When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. > In article > <dcde022e-8553-4326-8ffd-18c7ef35f5ff@q14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Who apparently can't even shout his name correctly. His teletype obviously needs adjusting. On Jun 23, 12:46 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote: > In article > <ae021e4e-811b-4db8-a415-cc2a4d623...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Dave Plowman d...@davenoise.co.uk London SW > To e-mail, change noise into sound. Thanks...again...what would a recommended OC voltage be for a battery charger for lead acid batteries? TMT On Jun 23, 1:46 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote: > In article > <ae021e4e-811b-4db8-a415-cc2a4d623...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Dave Plowman d...@davenoise.co.uk London SW > To e-mail, change noise into sound. IT SEEMS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS CHARGER IS FILTERING IN OTHER WORDS OUTPUT WAVE FORM ATTENUATION RECTIFYING IS NOT AN ISSUE OR IT WOULD NOT ADJUST TO THE CHARGE AT ALL I AM PROTEUS > A related question.... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > TMT Depends on the charger, but usually a few percent higher than the voltage rating of the batteries it's meant to charge. It will drop under load, by how much depends on the design. When the rectifier fails, you replace the rectifier... > > A related question.... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > When the rectifier fails, you replace the rectifier... Thanks. The reason why I ask is when I was a kid I repaired a battery charger that had lost its selenium rectifiers with a couple of diodes. I seem to remember it being 14 volt something. While I would have thought it sufficient, the charger seemed to overcharge batteries from then on. TMT On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: > > A related question.... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > When the rectifier fails, you replace the rectifier... >Thanks. >The reason why I ask is when I was a kid I repaired a battery charger >that had lost its selenium rectifiers with a couple of diodes. I seem >to remember it being 14 volt something. While I would have thought it >sufficient, the charger seemed to overcharge batteries from then on. >TMT Of course it overcharges and this has already been discussed in this very thread. The voltage drop across a modern diode is much less than that across a selenium rectifier so you have to add some resistance to reduce the current. John G. > On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > John G. And adjust the OC voltage to what? TMT On Jun 23, 10:07 pm, "John G." <greent...@ozemail.com.au> wrote: > "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > John G. And adjust the OC voltage to what? TMT A resistor will not change the opencircuit voltage it will only change the current delivered and you will have to decide what is correct for your transformer and your battery. If this requires some basic training in electricity well so be it. John G. >> On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > TMT You don't adjust the OC voltage, you adjust the *amperage* into a load, IE, a battery that you wish to charge. >>> On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > You don't adjust the OC voltage, you adjust the *amperage* into a load, > IE, a battery that you wish to charge. That depends on the battery & how you're charging it, taper charging a lead acid with an upper voltage limit is the normal procedure. > > "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > TMT Why the hang-up over the OC voltage? Read what p[eople are saying. MBQ > > > "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > MBQ I am. And I really don't understand why no one is able to provide a simple number of the OC voltage of the charger when it is not hooked up to the battery. Simple question...if you measure the OC voltage of a battery charger meant for lead acid batteries...what is it? A number please. Or better yet how about reporting what your various chargers show as OC DC voltage. TMT In article <9acc09bc-a2b9-491e-94ee-4d747988b9bd@q37g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, > Simple question...if you measure the OC voltage of a battery charger > meant for lead acid batteries...what is it? > A number please. It depends on so many things that it's impossible to say. For example the off load voltage of just the transformer varies by the design and quality. > Or better yet how about reporting what your various chargers show as > OC DC voltage. Many have a relay on the output operated by the *battery* - with a diode in the feed to its coil - to prevent wrong connection. So show zero volts when not connected. Side effect is they can't be used to try and charge a totally flat battery. Signature*A journey of a thousand sites begins with a single click * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. On Jun 26, 4:27 am, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote: > In article > <9acc09bc-a2b9-491e-94ee-4d747988b...@q37g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Dave Plowman d...@davenoise.co.uk London SW > To e-mail, change noise into sound. I understand Dave...and I appreciate your response. I am attempting to have people measure their battery chargers so I have a target voltage to shoot for. I realize that I can look up what different sources will say an OC voltage is supposed to be but I would like to know what has been done in practice. TMT > I understand Dave...and I appreciate your response. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > TMT But this won't do anything for you. The output voltage will not be affected by adding resistance unless the charger is connected to a load. If there is am amperage rating printed on the face of the charger, you could hook it up to a load such as a couple of automotive headlamp bulbs and adjust the resistance such that the output voltage under a 5-10A load is in the vicinity of 12V, and into a few hundred mA it should be more like 13.8, this isn't rocket science, and the numbers can be very approximate, it really doesn't matter. If precision is important to you, buy a fancy smart charger that you can "set and forget" and rest easy knowing your batteries will be properly charged even if you leave the charger connected indefinitely. > > I understand Dave...and I appreciate your response. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "set and forget" and rest easy knowing your batteries will be properly > charged even if you leave the charger connected indefinitely. Thanks for the info...it is appreciated. TMT > > > > "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > number of the OC voltage of the charger when it is not hooked up to > the battery. The only simple thing here is you. There are too many variables to give a 'simple' answer. > Simple question...if you measure the OC voltage of a battery charger > meant for lead acid batteries...what is it? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Or better yet how about reporting what your various chargers show as > OC DC voltage. Even better, quit trolling. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! On Jun 26, 6:17 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > > "Too_Many_Tools" <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > -- > You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! You seem to be the troll here Michael. TMT > > Why the hang-up over the OC voltage? Read what p[eople are saying. > > > MBQ > > I am. Let me rephrase it. Read what people are saying, understand it, and then you'll see why no one is answering your question. > And I really don't understand why no one is able to provide a simple > number of the OC voltage of the charger when it is not hooked up to > the battery. There is no one right answer. > Simple question...if you measure the OC voltage of a battery charger > meant for lead acid batteries...what is it? Which charger? Which battery? > A number please. 42 > Or better yet how about reporting what your various chargers show as > OC DC voltage. What knowledge do you hope to gain from that, without knowing the characteristics of the various chargers? What if one was 25V, another 16V and yet another 0V, what would that tell you? Are any of them faulty in any way? MBQ >> Why the hang-up over the OC voltage? Read what p[eople are saying. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > number of the OC voltage of the charger when it is not hooked up to > the battery. That's because there isn't one. It's generally raw pulsating DC from a transformer. The battery itself acts as sort of a capacitive filter; when the xformer's instantaneous voltage exceeds the open-circuit voltage of the battery, charging current flows. When it drops below the OCV, the current simply stops flowing and the voltage is whatever the battery is sitting at at the moment. About 13.8 is a reasonable voltage for a float charge, and they'll go up to as much as 14.4 for an "equalize" charge. But usually they're charged by constant current, so you either need a timer, watch the clock, or buy an expensive charger that figures out all that stuff for you. I wouldn't try to use a battery charger as, say, a general-purpose high-current power supply without a MONGO LC filter. Hope This Helps! Rich >>>> On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: >>>>>> A related question.... [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > TMT Because you're asking a question to which there is no standard quantifiable answer. You are asking something akin to "how long is a piece of string?" Simply put, the OCV is whatever that particular charger "wants" to put out with no load, and under load will drop to wherever the battery "wants" it to be. The OCV is not regulated and will float to some arbitrary value anywhere from say 5% to 50% greater than the voltage of the battery it is designed to charge, and this will *not* be affected by any resistance you place in series. In fact, you cannot affect the OCV of any voltage source purely by adding resistance unless you add so much resistance that the voltage is dropped measurably by the impedance of the meter you use to measure it. This is just how electricity works, and I'm sorry if you don't understand. Precisely what the voltage is depends on the design of that particular individual charger and may even vary some between two chargers of the same model. It will be affected by line voltage as well. These are simply not precision devices. You add resistance in order to adjust the amperage to something appropriate for the battery, and the OCV does under load will drop to whatever the battery voltage is. > >>>> On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>> A related question.... [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > - Show quoted text - DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT I SHALL DEEP PROBE HIM FOR A SOLID AFFIRMITAVE ANSWER [:-] I AM PROTEUS > >>>> On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>> A related question.... [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > appropriate for the battery, and the OCV does under load will drop to > whatever the battery voltage is. I do understand...thanks. I was asking for an OCV since I considered it a simple request for the group. TMT iN uk.d-i-y,alt.engineering.electrical,sci.electronics.design,uk.rec.cars.maintenance, >> > And adjust the OC voltage to what? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Simple question...if you measure the OC voltage of a battery charger >meant for lead acid batteries...what is it? What do you mean? African or European battery charger? >A number please. > >Or better yet how about reporting what your various chargers show as >OC DC voltage. > >TMT >iN >uk.d-i-y,alt.engineering.electrical,sci.electronics.design,uk.rec.cars.maintenan [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > What do you mean? African or European battery charger? Africa? Careful - South of the Equator the polarity reverses. SignatureRoger Hunt > >iN > >uk.d-i-y,alt.engineering.electrical,sci.electronics.design,uk.rec.cars.maintenan [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > > Africa? Careful - South of the Equator the polarity reverses. Then its a good thing that the troll is bipolar. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! > On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: >>> A related question.... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The voltage drop across a modern diode is much less than that across a > selenium rectifier so you have to add some resistance to reduce the current. Wrong, you just have to add a diode or three to create a voltage drop. Dave >> On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: >>>> A related question.... [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Dave You just need the right resistor in parallel :-) > On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > John G. How much resistance? TMT > > On Jun 23, 9:27 pm, James Sweet <jamesswe...@trashmail.net> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > How much resistance? What color is my roof? SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >> The voltage drop across a modern diode is much less than that across a >> selenium rectifier so you have to add some resistance to reduce the current. > > How much resistance? Enough to match the forward drop of the selenium stack under normal operating conditions. Hope This Helps! Rich >>> A related question.... >>> What should the open circuit voltage on a battery charger be? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > TMT Selenium rectifiers have a much higher voltage drop than silicon diodes. When you replace them with modern diodes, you need a resistor in series for most applications, the value of which depends on the design load. > Selenium rectifiers have a much higher voltage drop than silicon diodes. > When you replace them with modern diodes, you need a resistor in series > for most applications, the value of which depends on the design load. Or add a buck transformer to the primary to adjust the charging current, without generating so much waste heat. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! THIS POST IS CRAP I AM PROTEUS |
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