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Electronics Forum / Electrical Engineering / July 200813 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since September 2003
The following story proves that the licensing of electricians, engineers, and contractors, and adopting the NEC as a minimum standard makes us safer in the USA. NEW YORK — Inferior electrical work by private contractors on U.S. military bases in Iraq is more widespread than the Pentagon has acknowledged, according to a published report. A Senate panel investigating the electrocutions of Americans on bases in Iraq was told last week by former KBR Inc. electricians that the contractor used employees with little electrical expertise to supervise subcontractors in Iraq and hired foreigners who couldn't speak English. The Pentagon has said 13 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since September 2003. It has ordered Houston- based KBR to inspect all the facilities it maintains in Iraq for electrical hazards. The New York Times reported on its Web site Thursday night that many more people have been injured, some seriously, by shocks, according to internal Army documents. A log compiled this year at one building complex in Baghdad disclosed that soldiers complained of receiving electrical shocks in their living quarters almost daily, the paper reported. During just one six-month period _ August 2006 through January 2007 _ at least 283 electrical fires destroyed or damaged American military facilities in Iraq, including the military's largest dining hall in the country, according to the documents obtained by the Times. An Army survey issued in February 2007 said electrical problems were the most urgent noncombat safety hazard for soldiers in Iraq. KBR, which is responsible for providing basic services, including housing, for American troops in Iraq, said last week that its investigation had not turned up evidence of a link between its work and the electrocutions. The Army report, however, said KBR did its own study and found a "systemic problem" with electrical work, according to the Times. from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/17/iraq-faulty-wiring-a-seve_n_113498.html > The following story proves that the licensing of electricians, > engineers, and contractors, and adopting the NEC as a minimum standard [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > from: > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/17/iraq-faulty-wiring-a-seve_n_113498.html I think they need w_tom... In the previous news report about this there was a picture of an open electrical panel that was bottom fed and missing the cover......It would be something if we could see More Pictures or get Detailed Explanations of the conditions that brought these reports about.... I can imagine bounding issues, exposed wiring & damaged equipment problems. Heaven Help Them......... > I think they need w_tom... Instead, they hired Bud. Some will say and do anything to maximize profits. Clearly those soldiers were not killed. Electricity was clamped to nothing. Therefore no dangerous currents to earth existed. > > I think they need w_tom... > > Instead, they hired Bud. Some will say and do anything to maximize > profits. Clearly those soldiers were not killed. Electricity was > clamped to nothing. Therefore no dangerous currents to earth existed. I think that if they had had a rigorous inspection program using quailified inspectors most of the safety problems would have been found. > > > I think they need w_tom... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > quailified inspectors most of the safety problems would have been > found. We should send _wacko_ to Iraq to personally test every piece of wire, till he discovers that he doesn't know the first thing about electrical safety.  Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. > I think that if they had had a rigorous inspection program using > quailified inspectors most of the safety problems would have been > found. Inspection is synonymous with failure. Quality control inspectors mean no quality. These concepts apply especially to electrical wiring. Inspection does not result in quality. Instead, management must provide attitude and knowledge. Insufficient attitude and knowledge is directly traceable to management failure. Concepts are well documented such as in a book entitled "Out of Crisis". Another famous example is the "Toyota way". > > I think that if they had had a rigorous inspection program using > > quailified inspectors most of the safety problems would have been [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Concepts are well documented such as in a book entitled "Out of > Crisis". Another famous example is the "Toyota way". SO, you've sold out to the Japsese hype? It was American qaulity control methods taught by Demming that brought them out of the stone ages, after WW-II. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. >> > I think that if they had had a rigorous inspection program using >> > quailified inspectors most of the safety problems would have been [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > control methods taught by Demming that brought them out of the stone > ages, after WW-II. True enough, but it was their dedicated practice of these principles that brought them to the quality standards that has made Toyota a flexible, quick on it's feet, very sucessful corporation. The same cannot be said of GM, Ford or Chrysler, why not? All three of these automakers were fully aware of Demming's work. I personally drive a Chrysler, and love it, but the quality of Toyota products is legendary. I refuse to buy one on principles, but you cannot fault their dedication to quality. Regards, Tom > True enough, but it was their dedicated practice of these principles that > brought them to the quality standards that has made Toyota a flexible, quick [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of Toyota products is legendary. I refuse to buy one on principles, but you > cannot fault their dedication to quality. You do realize that Toyota assembles some of their vehicles in the US, don't you? Unions. The big three can't get rid of deadwood like the Japanese can. Also, most American manufacturers ignored Demming's methods, at least, at first. They had the same attitude that they didn't need to inspect or test their products. That was why Motorola had over a 100% failure rate on consumer electronics, before they sold that division to Matsushita (Panasonic) in the '70s. Equipment would be defective when it reached the test & alignment stations, be sent back for rework, and they would find more problems. The first thing Matsushita did was replace all the tooling & test equipment, and implement the same QC standards and employee training they used in their Japanese plans. Newer designs were made to be easier to build, inspect & test. he failure rate dropped to industry averages and the in warranty field failures dropped like a rock. It's like Sears warranty on Craftsman tools. Ship whatever comes off the vendor's production line, and replace what fails. That is, if the customer bothers to bring it back. Most aren't worth the gasoline costs to exchange, these days. The last time I exchanged a tool was a #2 philips, over 20 years ago. The shank of the new screwdriver was full of pits before it was chromed, and the tip stripped out, simply by removing the 6/32 screws from an IBM XT computer. I was on the fourth screw when the metal started to crack and fall off. I have never bought another screwdriver from them, I did buy a couple cordless drills, because I had two gift certificates I needed to use or lose. I would have been better off just tossing them in the trash and saved the gasoline. they both died while stripping junk computers. Try building for NASA, NOAA or any other government agency with no quality control. Add ISO 900x certification on top of that. Sometimes the paper trail and inspection data are larger than the shipped product. Only COTS can get by, but samples are usually tested before a large purchase is made. Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. > True enough, but it was their dedicated practice of these principles that > brought them to the quality standards that has made Toyota a flexible, quick > on it's feet, very sucessful corporation. The same cannot be said of GM, > Ford or Chrysler, why not? All three of these automakers were fully aware of > Demming's work. Michael is not posting for factual benefit. Michael is following me everywhere posting attacks. I have caught Michael a few times posting technical nonsense. He does not like me. Michael Terrell is only here to argue based on hate which is easy to do when knowledge only comes from sound bytes and political rhetoric. One can either design the products or cost control the products. Those whose knowledge only comes from cost control mentality and sound bytes also assume that quality control inspectors increase quality. A first thing to increase quality is to eliminate quality control inspectors. Those American deaths in Iraq are directly traceable to contractors with a history of maximizing profits at the expense of service. Notice who did so much of the work even on no bid contracts. > > True enough, but it was their dedicated practice of these principles that > > brought them to the quality standards that has made Toyota a flexible, quick [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > everywhere posting attacks. I have caught Michael a few times posting > technical nonsense. Bullshit. . He does not like me. I have a severe aversion to idiots, liars and losers. . Michael Terrell is only > here to argue based on hate which is easy to do when knowledge only > comes from sound bytes and political rhetoric. I am here because I want to be. No matter what lies you tell. It is you who pops up any time the word 'surge' is used. > One can either design the products or cost control the products. Nonsense. All design is compromise. Knowing what can and can't be cut is a large part of engineering. > Those whose knowledge only comes from cost control mentality and > sound bytes also assume that quality control inspectors increase > quality. yawn. Go to China if you want to build low grade crap with no quality control. Mission critical electronics can not be built without inspection. In a properly run QC or QA program, very little problems are found. You better be damn happy that the command destruct receivers we built for NASA were inspected, multiple times. > A first thing to increase quality is to eliminate quality > control inspectors. I suppose that includes building inspectors, as well? After all, they are quality control inspectors. How about the engineers who inspect new bridge and highway construction? Do you want to get rid of them too? > Those American deaths in Iraq are directly > traceable to contractors with a history of maximizing profits at the > expense of service. So, no one inspected their work, yet you claim no quality control is needed. Your lies are tripping you up, as usual. > Notice who did so much of the work even on no bid > contracts. I don't follow your lame a.s around. You pop up in newsgroups I've used for years, and spouting your cut & paste nonsense. As far as your constant lies, people can see for themselves. Your manic obsession with grounding blinds you to the real facts. As far as electrocution, it is the result of enough potential difference, creating enough current flow though the heart to cause it to stop. That DOES NOT HAVE TO INCLUDE A PATH TO GROUND. All it requires is a pair of conductors with enough potential to provide the current. A delta three phase power source can easily kill you, even when it is not connected to ground. In fact, you can be electrocuted by a high voltage gradient in the soil. You keep bragging me that you have caught me posting 'technical nonsense'. Put up, or shut up. Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. > I suppose that includes building inspectors, as well? After all, > they are quality control inspectors. How about the engineers who > inspect new bridge and highway construction? Do you want to get rid of > them too? Michael Terrell demonstrates knowledge only from a political agenda and popular myth. If Michael had first learned how things work, then he read - learned a fundamental difference between quality assurance and quality control. But no. Michael automatically knows. He need not first learn technologies and facts. He did not get educated. He learned from political rhetoric. Therefore Michael does not even understand what was posted - but is critical anyway. Michael demonstrates where America has serious problems. People who always know - are told how to think by Rush Limbaugh, et al - and never bother to get an education. Let's see. A GM car needed two extra pistons to obtain same horsepower. Why did 1990s Japanese have engines that were developed in GM before 1975? Why did GM in 2000 and 2008 still not sell those engines in every car? Engines that were world standard, that were developed in GM 30 years earlier, and that massively reduce costs? According to Michael Terrell reasoning, all those extra pistons, fuel injectors, manifolds, larger engine block, heavier car, etc - all those higher costs *are directly traceable to unions*. But again, Michael always knows without first learning facts. Had Michael learned how things work, then Michael would have known that a quality control inspector mean no quality. He would have known why GM's costs are so much higher – why GM costs per car were higher than Mercedes. What creates higher costs? Stifled technology. No innovation. But that is not what popular myths and political pundits say. Michael does not even understand how Toyota obtained legendary quality starting in the 1960s. No quality control inspectors means increased quality. Quality control inspectors would solve those troop electrocutions? Hardly. Meanwhile, in most every case, troops had been shocked previously. Nothing was done until someone died. Another problem directly traceable to management. Only defective management and those taught by rhetoric would use quality control inspectors to solve problems. GM is at a disadvantage due to legacy costs? Another myth that Michael will automatically believe. When a GM employee retires, those pension funds are supposed to be fully funded. Why does GM have legacy costs? Michael who learns before knowing would know that GM shorted their pension funds in the 1990s to claim profits. Now GM has legacy costs directly traceable to GM management money games. However Michael knows GM's problems are due to legacy costs because unions are always to blame. Michael Terrell's politics blames unions. Extremism is alive and well where people such as Michael know without first learning facts. Soldiers would get shocked. Still the problem was not fixed? Quality control inspectors would have solved that? Of course not. Just another example of failure directly traceable to management. But that contradicts those who learn only from rhetoric and sound bytes. Clearly those deaths could have been averted by quality control inspectors. Michael - who demonstrates all the symptoms of a political extremist - just knows this must be true. > > I suppose that includes building inspectors, as well? After all, > > they are quality control inspectors. How about the engineers who [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > he read - learned a fundamental difference between quality assurance > and quality control. But no. Michael automatically knows. Actually I do know the difference. I worked as a Quality Assurance inspector on the PRC-77 man pack radio at Cincinnati Electronics, as well as with the QC inspectors and Manufacturing Engineering department at Microdyne to resolve manufacturing problems, to reduce assembly errors. > He need > not first learn technologies and facts. He did not get educated. Another ignorant lie by _wacko_. > He > learned from political rhetoric. Projecting, from your small dark world again? > Therefore Michael does not even > understand what was posted - but is critical anyway. You don't understand anything, _wacko_ > Michael demonstrates where America has serious problems. Yes, and the problem is that we haven't rounded up all the free range mental patients like you, and put them back in the zoo where they belong. "Oh, look, Mommy! The sign says this is one of the world's most ignorant trolls! He wasted his whole life telling lies and pretending he had an education about grounding! " > People who always > know - are told how to think by Rush Limbaugh, et al - and never > bother to get an education. You always have to bring up your favorite inbred talk radio host, don't you? Tell us, did your family tree EVER branch? I listen to http://www.wsmonline.com/ not your twin brother. > Let's see. A GM car needed two extra pistons to obtain same > horsepower. Why did 1990s Japanese have engines that were developed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > injectors, manifolds, larger engine block, heavier car, etc - all > those higher costs *are directly traceable to unions*. Stop trying to put your weasel words in my mouth, _wacko_. > But again, > Michael always knows without first learning facts. Typical _wacko_ misdirection, since he's lost the argument. This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. > Had Michael learned how things work, then Michael would have known > that a quality control inspector mean no quality. Bullshit. Read Demming's work, and how it helped your masters in Japan. > He would have known > why GM's costs are so much higher why GM costs per car were higher > than Mercedes. Have you ever talked to engineers at GM? Heard about the innovations the union overruled because it would cost one union job? You are so ignorant that you have to stop typing to breathe. Ideas like a radio that installed through the dash. It would have eliminated two union jobs per production line. A redesign of the heater and A/C that would be easier to service was rejected, because it would have cost four or five union jobs, per production line. The list is endless, and we, the consumers have had to pay for it. This time, GM is in so much financail trouble they may not survive, and all those UAW and other union workers will be out on their a.ses, for good. > What creates higher costs? Stifled technology. Exactly what the UAW has done to GM. Why do you think it takes GM two years or more to convert a factory from building trucks to building cars? Too many unions and union rules. One does a little work, then another union does their little job, and so on. There is very little difference in the actual assembly line, and the tooling, but the unions drag their heels as long as possible. If they were not in control, the conversion would take a few months. Why is there so little automation at the 'big three' auto makers, compared to the Japanese auto makers? Unions. > No innovation. Definitely. Say: "Thank you, UAW. Please screw me again." > But that is not what popular myths and political pundits > say. What do they say? I don't listen to myths, and I've never met a pundit. > Michael does not even understand how Toyota obtained legendary > quality starting in the 1960s. No, you don't Demming's quality control methods is what was used to teach people that the job had to be done right. It worked so well, that the Japanese people have turned into neurotic workaholics. Quality has been beaten into their souls, to the point that in some cases their job is more important than their families. > No quality control inspectors means > increased quality. Quality control inspectors would solve those troop > electrocutions? Hardly. Yawn. You have semi skilled workers hired from all over the world. A lot of them come from places with little or no concern over electrical safety. Cincinnati Electronics sent a team to Pakistan in the late '70s to set up a production line for a NATO radio. The Pakistan electricians drove pairs of nails into the bare wood walls, then ran parallel runs of bare copper wire from nail to nail. They cut the AC plugs off the test equipment, then stripped and wrapped the stranded copper around the solid, bare copper and that was that. Anyone could bump into the wiring and be electrocuted. In other countries, theft of electricity is quite common and uses methods just as dangerous. This bunch was hired to satisfy NATO, who doesn''t give a damn about the lives of US troops. > Meanwhile, in most every case, troops had been shocked previously. Personally, I would have made sure no one was able to be shocked again. But then, I was a inspector. > Nothing was done until someone died. Another problem directly > traceable to management. Because no one was responsible to make sure it was done right. > Only defective management and those taught > by rhetoric would use quality control inspectors to solve problems. So, every city, count, state and even the Federal government is wrong for doing building inspections? I guess that refrigerator box you live in doesn't need inspected, but real buildings do. > GM is at a disadvantage due to legacy costs? Another myth that > Michael will automatically believe. Yawn... More of _wacko's_ weasel words. I never said anything close to that. >When a GM employee retires, those > pension funds are supposed to be fully funded. Why does GM have > legacy costs? Michael who learns before knowing would know that GM > shorted their pension funds in the 1990s to claim profits. A lot of companies are trying to screw their employees out of their pensions. This isn't news. > Now GM has > legacy costs directly traceable to GM management money games. However > Michael knows GM's problems are due to legacy costs because unions are > always to blame. Yawn... More of _wacko's_ weasel words. I never said anything close to that. > Michael Terrell's politics blames unions. Extremism > is alive and well where people such as Michael know without first > learning facts. Yawn... More of _wacko's_ weasel words. I never said anything close to that. > Soldiers would get shocked. Still the problem was not fixed? As long as no one is directly responsible. Inspections leave paper trails, so the guilty can be tried. If they can be put in prison, or given a death sentence for shoddy work, it is not likely to happen. > Quality control inspectors would have solved that? Of course not. If it had been inspected like electrical work is in the US and other first world countries, it would have been safe before it was powered up. Have you ever heard of a 'certificate of occupancy'? You get it after a building passes all inspections. Of course this doesn't apply to the refrigerator box you share with the other bums. > Just another example of failure directly traceable to management. But > that contradicts those who learn only from rhetoric and sound bytes. Talking about yourself? All you ever use is sound bites. > Clearly those deaths could have been averted by quality control > inspectors. AKA building inspectors. Yes. If the work was substandard, the buildings would have been repaired before the troops were allowed to use them. > Michael - who demonstrates all the symptoms of a > political extremist - just knows this must be true. I freely admit that I am a political extremist, and will work to rid the world of idiots like you, while working within the laws of the United States. BTW, your mothership has been delayed, and they said they won't be picking you up. Ever. Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. >> > I suppose that includes building inspectors, as well? After all, >> > they are quality control inspectors. How about the engineers who [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >at Microdyne to resolve manufacturing problems, to reduce assembly >errors. Avco? I worked in the Woodlawn area for a long time as well. > >> > I suppose that includes building inspectors, as well? After all, > >> > they are quality control inspectors. How about the engineers who [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Avco? I worked in the Woodlawn area for a long time as well. It was at the old Crosly/Avco site at 2630 Glendale-Milford Road. It became Cincinnati Electronics when AVCO left the defense electronics business. They later moved to a new plant in Mason, Ohio, and after that they were bought by L3-Com. http://www.cinele.com/ Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. > > >> > I suppose that includes building inspectors, as well? After all, > > >> > they are quality control inspectors. How about the engineers who [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > http://www.cinele.com/ I was there a few weeks back. Nice facilities. SignatureKeith > mike.terrell@earthlink.net wrote: > > > > http://www.cinele.com/ > > I was there a few weeks back. Nice facilities. Anything would be better than the old plant. No AC in the production area, and an idiot one company union. It was in a complex built by the US Government for Crosley to use as a machine shop during W.W.II, and was in sad shape. BTW, L3-Com is the outfit that bought Microdyne & gutted it in 2001 &2002. Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. > > mike.terrell@earthlink.net wrote: > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > US Government for Crosley to use as a machine shop during W.W.II, and > was in sad shape. The told me all about it. Evidently the landlord was Marge Shot. They had all sorts of "nice" things to say about her. ;-) > BTW, L3-Com is the outfit that bought Microdyne & > gutted it in 2001 &2002. There was no sign of any "gutting" at CE and everyone was quite happy with the situation. SignatureKeith > There was no sign of any "gutting" at CE and everyone was quite > happy with the situation. Over 200 people at Microdyne were laid off, and the work moved to a new, smaller plant in Pennsylvania. They moved from 120,000 square foot three building complex into a 40,000 square foot building they had to share with two other companies L3-Com purchased. Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. > > There was no sign of any "gutting" at CE and everyone was quite > > happy with the situation. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > three building complex into a 40,000 square foot building they had to > share with two other companies L3-Com purchased. I don't doubt you, just that it certainly wasn't going on at CE. They were quite well funded and happy as clams. Unfortunately, I was #2. SignatureKeith The following story proves that the licensing of electricians, engineers, and contractors, and adopting the NEC as a minimum standard makes us safer in the USA. NEW YORK — Inferior electrical work by private contractors on U.S. military bases in Iraq is more widespread than the Pentagon has acknowledged, according to a published report. A Senate panel investigating the electrocutions of Americans on bases in Iraq was told last week by former KBR Inc. electricians that the contractor used employees with little electrical expertise to supervise subcontractors in Iraq and hired foreigners who couldn't speak English. The Pentagon has said 13 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since September 2003. It has ordered Houston- based KBR to inspect all the facilities it maintains in Iraq for electrical hazards. The New York Times reported on its Web site Thursday night that many more people have been injured, some seriously, by shocks, according to internal Army documents. A log compiled this year at one building complex in Baghdad disclosed that soldiers complained of receiving electrical shocks in their living quarters almost daily, the paper reported. During just one six-month period _ August 2006 through January 2007 _ at least 283 electrical fires destroyed or damaged American military facilities in Iraq, including the military's largest dining hall in the country, according to the documents obtained by the Times. An Army survey issued in February 2007 said electrical problems were the most urgent noncombat safety hazard for soldiers in Iraq. KBR, which is responsible for providing basic services, including housing, for American troops in Iraq, said last week that its investigation had not turned up evidence of a link between its work and the electrocutions. The Army report, however, said KBR did its own study and found a "systemic problem" with electrical work, according to the Times. from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/17/iraq-faulty-wiring-a-seve_n_113498. html Every thing about Iraq has been a f.ck up from the word go. Virtually nothing has gone right. But that's what happens when there is little oversight, no bid contracts, greedy contractors trying to make a fast buck at the governments expense, and a whole host of other issues. It's easy to blame the lack of licensed electricians but where are the inspectors, where are the plans and layouts, where is the over sight, where is the management who signed off on this crap? Where was the Army? How come they didn't stop everything when the first guy got shocked? Many questions, no answers. You can sum this whole Iraq thing up under the same heading as Katrina. When you elect people who don't believe in government, people who put cronies and political hacks in charge, people who think government is the problem, people who don't believe government has a roll, and people who blame the government for the ills of society, you get INCOMPETENT government. What do you expect? Would you hire a cabinet maker that didn't like to work with wood? Hell no! But you are quick to elect and put in charge bozos who don't like government. Very Weird. The Bush administration is going down as the absolute worst in American history and this electrical problem is the tiniest tip of a very vast ice berg. I hate to tell you this, but this issue goes way beyond electricians. > The following story proves that the licensing of electricians, > engineers, and contractors, and adopting the NEC as a minimum standard > makes us safer in the USA. SNIP It's very sad to see those figures. I wonder how they compare with the electrocution figures for British forces there? I presume the latter to have been unlicensed (as are all British electricians), but competent, members of (e.g.) the Corps of Royal Engineers , and to have worked to British Standard 7671 wiring regs.as far as war conditions allowed. I also understand that Iraqi wiring was (loosely?) based on those regs. I'm not familiar enough with the NEC to know whether its use could have been appropriate, and I wouldn't be surprised if the US contractors were equally unfamiliar with BS7671. >> The following story proves that the licensing of electricians, >> engineers, and contractors, and adopting the NEC as a minimum standard [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > The army USED to do all their own electrical word out of the engineering units. They were actually pretty good.. I guess with the low troop levels they need to use contractors. All at low bid.. No good.. Eric > The army USED to do all their own electrical word out of the engineering > units. They were actually pretty good.. I guess with the low troop > levels they need to use contractors. All at low bid.. > No good.. Contractors don't get VA benefits, or go through 'Basic Training' and 'Advanced Individual Training'. They don't get proficiency pay, or promotions. It's all part of the downsizing of the military. They were phasing out my MOS of Broadcast Engineer to civilians when I got out in the early '70s. Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. > The army USED to do all their own electrical word out of the engineering > units. They were actually pretty good.. I guess with the low troop > levels they need to use contractors. All at low bid.. > No good.. A lot of the contracting companies are not low bid, they are no bid (likely the opposite). Contractors are used for a lot of things other than electrical that the military used to do. There are probably about as many contractors as US troops in Iraq. A lot of workers are foreign (not American/European/Iraq1). One of the reasons is the philosophy of privatizing government functions currently in vogue. Signaturebud-- |> The army USED to do all their own electrical word out of the engineering |> units. They were actually pretty good.. I guess with the low troop [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | A lot of the contracting companies are not low bid, they are no bid | (likely the opposite). Which means you get the quality of low bid with the cost of high bid, with some of the profits kicked back somewhere. | Contractors are used for a lot of things other than electrical that the | military used to do. There are probably about as many contractors as US | troops in Iraq. A lot of workers are foreign (not American/European/Iraq1). | | One of the reasons is the philosophy of privatizing government functions | currently in vogue. I almost took one of those (data) network engineering jobs in Afghanistan for $225K+benefits. Obviously there are some high costs involved paying people to get them to come to high danger spots. But this is not in any way a justification for incorrectly wired facilities where people's lives are at stake. If they had to pay a real American electrician $225K to do the work right, rather than maybe $30K to some on-the-job trainee from who knows what country, then it would be worth it to keep people alive. Just because there are plenty of hazards in the region does not mean safety can be skipped (especially for those people who do put their lives right on the line in the field). They need to track how that happened, up from whoever miswired it until they reach an American with responsibility, then roll some heads (and take back the cash on the no-bid contract). |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance | | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to | | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. | | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | From: phil-news-nospam@ipal.net | Eric wrote: | > The army USED to do all their own electrical word out of the engineering units. They were actually pretty good.. I guess with the low troop levels they need to use contractors. All at low bid.. No good.. | A lot of the contracting companies are not low bid, they are no bid | (likely the opposite). Which means you get the quality of low bid with the cost of high bid, with some of the profits kicked back somewhere. | Contractors are used for a lot of things other than electrical that the | military used to do. There are probably about as many contractors as US | troops in Iraq. A lot of workers are foreign (not American/European/Iraq1). | One of the reasons is the philosophy of privatizing government functions | currently in vogue. I almost took one of those (data) network engineering jobs in Afghanistan for $225K+benefits. Obviously there are some high costs involved paying people to get them to come to high danger spots. But this is not in any way a justification for incorrectly wired facilities where people's lives are at stake. If they had to pay a real American electrician $225K to do the work right, rather than maybe $30K to some on-the-job trainee from who knows what country, then it would be worth it to keep people alive. Just because there are plenty of hazards in the region does not mean safety can be skipped (especially for those people who do put their lives right on the line in the field). They need to track how that happened, up from whoever miswired it until they reach an American with responsibility, then roll some heads (and take back the cash on the no-bid contract). --------------------------- Phil I've been thinking about this...not that contractors are perfect or without their faults but > What if our GI's wired in there own stuff after the contractor left., you know splice this extension cord in and run it over to that pit over thier to juice up this or that at night..... We always assume the worst from the easiest to accuse or most obvious source but what if these deaths are not related to work perfomed by our contractors - I recall reading that one contractor interviewed said it was not related to their work - They really need to look into this and give a full report. War is Hell., when will it end? Roy Q.T. [have tools, will travel] | Phil I've been thinking about this...not that contractors are perfect or | without their faults but > What if our GI's wired in there own stuff | after the contractor left., you know splice this extension cord in and | run it over to that pit over thier to juice up this or that at | night..... I would not suggest the GIs invididually wire their own. But someone who is an experience competent electrician and is mobilized to a war zone should be able to be given the work of doing this wiring (unless his personal goals are to get out in the field and shoot some bad guys). But given the reputation of some contractors killing his buddies, I think at least a few of them would be willing to do this kind of work (and would do it right because it is their fellow GIs lives on the line). Who's got your back? Some contractor? | We always assume the worst from the easiest to accuse or most obvious | source but what if these deaths are not related to work perfomed by our | contractors - I recall reading that one contractor interviewed said it | was not related to their work - Of course they would say that. It's a standard common knee jerk reaction in any corporate legal department. It means zilch. What is needed is a full independent investigation. If something _is_ wired wrong and was approved for usage, someone has the blame. | They really need to look into this and give a full report. Yes. And if they find contractors at fault, heads must roll. But someone somewhere has to be. I wonder how much of this stuff is running on 230/240 volts. Maybe a lot. That's what's readily available in Iraq and Afghanistan when the power is on. A lot of military gensets (at least what I've seen in surplus markets) are 416Y/240 so it seems the military is likely well prepared for using voltage levels found in these countries. Maybe they should hire some electrical inspectors from Europe? |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance | | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to | | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. | | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | Date: Thu, Jul 24, 2008, 5:45pm (EDT+4) From: phil-news-nospam@ipal.net | Phil I've been thinking about this...not that contractors are perfect or | without their faults but > What if our GI's wired in there own stuff | after the contractor left., you know splice this extension cord in and | run it over to that pit over thier to juice up this or that at | night..... I would not suggest the GIs invididually wire their own. But someone who is an experience competent electrician and is mobilized to a war zone should be able to be given the work of doing this wiring (unless his personal goals are to get out in the field and shoot some bad guys). But given the reputation of some contractors killing his buddies, I think at least a few of them would be willing to do this kind of work (and would do it right because it is their fellow GIs lives on the line). Who's got your back? Some contractor? | We always assume the worst from the easiest to accuse or most obvious | source but what if these deaths are not related to work perfomed by our | contractors - I recall reading that one contractor interviewed said it | was not related to their work - Of course they would say that. It's a standard common knee jerk reaction in any corporate legal department. It means zilch. What is needed is a full independent investigation. If something _is_ wired wrong and was approved for usage, someone has the blame. | They really need to look into this and give a full report. Yes. And if they find contractors at fault, heads must roll. But someone somewhere has to be. I wonder how much of this stuff is running on 230/240 volts. Maybe a lot. That's what's readily available in Iraq and Afghanistan when the power is on. A lot of military gensets (at least what I've seen in surplus markets) are 416Y/240 so it seems the military is likely well prepared for using voltage levels found in these countries. Maybe they should hire some electrical inspectors from Europe? ----------------------------- You know I agree with you on Most of this., Something has to be done., Someone must fess up to What Happened & Suffer The Consecuences if he or she hasn't already......By the same token Contractors are the most likely to be blamed because they are out there involved in Military Business in a State of War - In fact I was ask to go to Qatar for these undertakings and my reply was "Yeah Right" I saw myself Packing Heat for the first time to protect my life and digressed - as I wouldn't trust it to anyone else at War. I'd have joined them Full Metal and I am sad to say, a Registered Pro-Armed US Forces & Beligerant. As you & most of us here - I have the utmost respect for Our Guys and what they are doing out there "God Help Them" but, I know that in the midst of Chaos many things can & will go wrong and actions are taken in The Heat of The Moment that may not be apar with ones best judgement - Hence: I doubt that any Soldier would carelessly tamper with Electricity., nor that any competent US contractor would set up a death trap for Our Boys or leave a hazard that would threaten or accidently take one of there lives...Now., Knowing This, What is Obvious About Any One At Fault ???? As I said: Without Placing Blame or Pointing a Finger to The Obvious => We Need a to get a hold of Full Detailed Reportz of The Tragic Events That Lead To Those Deaths and Who n What Hands Were Behind the Deadly Fault in Each Case. R.Q.T. US/NCU | As you & most of us here - I have the utmost respect for Our Guys and | what they are doing out there "God Help Them" but, I know that in the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | take one of there lives...Now., Knowing This, What is Obvious About Any | One At Fault ???? As I understand it, these were showers at bases. Contractors don't go into fire zones; soldiers do. The contractors work in less stressful situations. If it is the case that the situation is still sufficiently stressful that a correct wiring job cannot always be done, or if the situation is such that the wiring is damaged by the combat situation (example: stray bullet hits a panel and causes a hot wire to energize frame ground and kills the GFI in the process), then this needs to be discovered and at least explained. If it is an ongoing hazard then it needs to be known and addressed as such. Maybe things like a bullet hole in an electrical panel needs to be taken more seriously. But I am not beyond ruling out that a contractor is acting IN-competently by some means, such as demanding work be done too quickly, or hiring locals to do work that they are not qualified for, or skipping essential inspections, or whatever. Businesses do very often try to cut costs, and that's one reason we have inspectors back at home. What I want to know is if the problems in the electrical wiring really are caused by this. I know from personal experience that it is very plausible for any business to skip requirements just to save money, because they do that frequently outside of war zones. So it is easy for me to believe they do so in a war zone as well. I would have been ready to dismiss ONE incident. But there is a pattern here. I have no qualifications as an inspector or electrician. I study a lot of this for the fun of knowledge, and the interest in knowing how stuff like this is done. But I would bet there is a good chance that *I* could have found bad work if I inspected the wiring these electrical contractors did. | As I said: Without Placing Blame or Pointing a Finger to The Obvious => | | We Need a to get a hold of Full Detailed Reportz of The Tragic Events | That Lead To Those Deaths and Who n What Hands Were Behind the Deadly | Fault in Each Case. I don't know if we'll ever get a fair and unbiased report. |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance | | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to | | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. | | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | I read through the Update and apparently an Incompatible Chinese made Water Heater was a problem KBR reps said the product was nthere before their contract kicked in ....... but I'm sure there is more to be known about these deaths. Roy Q.T. [have tools, will travel] >I read through the Update and apparently an Incompatible Chinese made >Water Heater was a problem KBR reps said the product was nthere before >their contract kicked in ....... but I'm sure there is more to be known >about these deaths. See a psychologist about your "Excessive Use of Capital Letters" in your Petty Ramblings. It really is an indicator of stupidity if you cannot control it. It's called a shift key. If you keep your fat fingers off of it, you'll appear more intelligent... aside from the message given by the content, that is. From: Mutineering@billsbackstabbers .org (Halitosis Hanzo) I read through the Update and apparently an Incompatible Chinese made Water Heater was a problem KBR reps said the product was there before their contract kicked in ....... but I'm sure there is more to be known about these deaths. See a psychologist about your "Excessive Use of Capital Letters" in your Petty Ramblings. It really is an indicator of stupidity if you cannot control it. It's called a shift key. If you keep your fat fingers off of it, you'll appear more intelligent... aside from the message given by the content, that is. ------------------------------------ See, if this motherf..ker were a soldier in Iraq he'd be suspect number one...Crawl back up the fuckhole you came from shithead ! or Do You Want Me To Spell It Out In Capitals For You .... If he is a soldier in Iraq [no offense to the Honorable men & women we have out there] He Should Be Shot ! or become the next Electrocution Victim., at least his death would make sense to the entire world. On second thought he must be a rep from that Chinese Pump Factory - all the same Curse You, Your Computer & the hour & day you chose to come up with this lame try at misgiven decency - Next time just Blow it Out Your a.s! and stay away from posting your tepid unnecessary replies. If I see a therapist it's to curb the homicidal thoughts I get from trolls like you. Roy Q.T. [have tools, will travel] >From: Mutineering@billsbackstabbers .org (Halitosis Hanzo) >I read through the Update and apparently an Incompatible Chinese made [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Roy Q.T. >[have tools, will travel] Bwuahahahahah! That was f.cking too funny! Christ, dude... if you get any more retarded, I'm going to have to start referencing your criminal bitch retarded mother again. On Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 2:11pm (EDT-3) Some fool in an Intelligent position wrote: See a psychologist about your "Excessive Use of Capital Letters" in your Petty Ramblings. It really is an indicator of stupidity if you cannot control it. It's called a shift key. If you keep your fat fingers off of it, you'll appear more intelligent... aside from the message given by the content, that is. ----------------------------- It takes great dexterity & control to capitalize words that you want others to take better notice of in certain parts of a response - not that you even care to do anything but draw flames with Personal Attacks & rants - Who are you a self proclaimed Mr. Intelligentsia? Stupid is a Stupid Does..... Take your shot unsolicited advice and shove it up your subconscience and leave it there for your own personal edification - You Really Need It More Than Me, or Anyone Else Here. >On Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 2:11pm (EDT-3) >Some fool in an Intelligent position wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >leave it there for your own personal edification - You Really Need It >More Than Me, or Anyone Else Here. Bwuahahahah! OK RoyToy... by your own definition... You Really Need a New Mechanism. This one is pretty old, and you still have yet to be correct. Dexterity and control... Bwuahahahahahahahhaa! From: OutintheSnow@billsbackyard.org (Hattori Hanzo) On Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 2:11pm (EDT-3) Some fool in an Intelligent position wrote: See a psychologist about your "Excessive Use of Capital Letters" in your Petty Ramblings. It really is an indicator of stupidity if you cannot control it. It's called a shift key. If you keep your fat fingers off of it, you'll appear more intelligent... aside from the message given by the content, that is. ----------------------------- It takes great dexterity & control to capitalize words that you want others to take better notice of in certain parts of a response - not that you even care to do anything but draw flames with Personal Attacks & rants - Who are you a self proclaimed Mr. Intelligentsia? Stupid is a Stupid Does..... Take your shot unsolicited advice and shove it up your subconscience and leave it there for your own personal edification - You Really Need It More Than Me, or Anyone Else Here. Bwuahahahah! OK RoyToy... by your own definition... You Really Need a New Mechanism. This one is pretty old, and you still have yet to be correct. Dexterity and control... Bwuahahahahahahahhaa! ------------------------------------- Ahhhhh you hate mongering Dork! I'm just gonna kill-file your snide disrespectful a.s., BUT for now., IN RESPONSE - If your whore of a mother wouldn't have tried to cheat my mother out of what is rightfully hers she wouldn't be a criminal today and I'd be a happy boy., [take a hint make the amends or and begone] Keeping records are we? Go ahead and spill your guts out if you want to., Get Your a.s Burnt - Again....as far as I'm concerned you can take the past and shove it up your pooshute too., and take every post you like to answer and chug it down your throat like a good little sucker, that loves coming back for more dick... I asked you not to address me, your sarcastic disrespectful rantings just confirms the Back Stabbing Maggot infestation that is in that full of sh.t head of yours - Truth You Inspire Hatred with your Contempt - and I won't give a damn for your sorry sh.t spewing a.s much either.You should humble yourself and stop this Lashing Out at others under any pretext......I have lots of sh.t to dish out, it's all in this invisible bag of sh.t I carry from sh.t I got & saved up from disrespectful annoying freaks like you claiming to be something better in the walk of life..... This humiliating war you've started months ago will be to no advantage to you or me., and any winners will only be disappointed for life - other than that, you may suffer needlessly by yourself cause I'm not budding up flowers for you., your evil little persistence & enjoyment of this proves how quick and perverted you are.....A Totally Undesireable Feature of Characters. I'm not the kind of person you've made me out to be & much to my detriment., I resent you. So Sir; Kindly Go f.ck Yourself ! - Leave me Alone, I'm a family man., if you push me to far I won't be responsible for what actions may ensue.......... >BUT for now., IN RESPONSE - If your whore of a mother wouldn't have >tried to cheat my mother out of what is rightfully hers she wouldn't be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >post you like to answer and chug it down your throat like a good little >sucker, that loves coming back for more dick... You see, Roy... This stupid horseshit is how we know how little maturity you have. "Get my a.s burnt again"? You retarded f.ck, you never did any "a.s burning" to begin with, dipshit. Gay slurs? Roy, you really need to use jabs that do not show your mentality for the 12 year old level that it is. >I asked you not to address me, You NEVER "asked" me to do ANYTHING, you lying, retarded, immature little bastard. And NO, you cannot project your retarded mother's criminality onto my mother, you stupid f.ck. Nice try though, boy. >.I have lots of sh.t to dish out, it's all in this invisible >bag of sh.t I carry from sh.t I got & saved up from disrespectful >annoying freaks like you claiming to be something better in the walk of >life..... I am six orders of magnitude "better" in "the walk of life" than you ever will be, RoyTard. The fact that you "carry around an invisible bag of sh.t" to sling at folks proves that. Re: 13 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since September 2003 Group: alt.engineering.electrical Date: Sun, Jul 27, 2008, 2:50pm (EDT-3) From: OutintheSnow@billsbackyard.org (Hattori Hanzo) I have lots of sh.t to dish out, it's all in this invisible bag of sh.t I carry from sh.t I got & saved up from disrespectful annoying freaks like you claiming to be something better in the walk of life..... I am six orders of magnitude "better" in "the walk of life" than you ever will be, RoyTard. The fact that you "carry around an invisible bag of sh.t" to sling at folks proves that. ------------------------- I only sling it at a.shole with invisible scum bags like you that think he's better than thou - so, f.ck You, your projections [you learn that word from me creep] and your f.cked up mother. Instead of getting online and visiting this url you shuld stick your hands up your retarded a.shole pull a turd out & eat it, it's probably a lot better than what your mommy cooked you....BasTard. >Re: 13 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since September 2003 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >he's better than thou - so, f.ck You, your projections [you learn that >word from me creep] and your f.cked up mother. I did not "learn" anything from you, you retarded f.ck. >Instead of getting online and visiting this url This is Usenet, you retarded, WebTARDTV dipshit! There is no URL, idiot! > you shuld stick your >hands up your retarded a.shole pull a turd out & eat it, The help you need, Roy, cannot be provided by anyone here. Stop showing everyone just how infantile your mentality is with childish remarks like this. And you wonder why I deride you? You are an IDIOT! > it's probably a >lot better than what your mommy cooked you....BasTard. Your bent "sense" of humor is even worse than your maturity level you portray here... nice sig though. Hahahaha! You mispelled your name, Roy. It is "Bat's Turd". Bwuahahahahahahahah! From: Mutineering@backstabbers.org (Halitosis Hanzo) Re: 13 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since September 2003 Group: alt.engineering.electrical Date: Sun, July 27, 2008, 2:50pm (EDT-3) From: Mutineering@backstabbers.org (Halitosis Hanzo) On Sun, 27 July 2008 10:56:08 -0400, ROYKEY@webtv.net (Roy) wrote: I have lots of sh.t to dish out, it's all in this invisible bag of sh.t I carry from sh.t I got & saved up from disrespectful annoying freaks like you claiming to be something better in the walk of life..... I am six orders of magnitude "better" in "the walk of life" than you ever will be, Bombard. The fact that you "carry around an invisible bag of sh.t" to sling at folks proves that. ------------------------- I only sling it at a.shole with invisible scum bags like you that think he's better than thou - so, f.ck You, your projections [you learn that word from me creep] and your f.cked up mother. I did not "learn" anything from you, you retarded f.ck. [[[[apparently not fool]]]] Your bent "sense" of humor is even worse than your maturity level you portray here... nice sig though. Maranatha! You mispelled your name, Roy. It is "Bat's Turd". Contradistinguished! --------------------------------------- ~ I wasn't being humorous ~ Roy Q.T. [have tools, will travel] To the OutintheSnow@billsbackyard.org (Hattori Hanzo) Get a LIfe - you f.cked up Cokehead., your brain is rocked up solid already - shatter & blow away in the wind - you argue more than a woman with a hormonal problem.....Nobody cares who, or what you are ~ May the curse you got last time be doubled on your miserable so called better life . >To the OutintheSnow@billsbackyard.org (Hattori Hanzo) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >curse you got last time be doubled on your miserable so called better >life . Bwuahahahaha! Roy is popping a cork! Bwuahahhahahahahah! |>I read through the Update and apparently an Incompatible Chinese made |>Water Heater was a problem KBR reps said the product was nthere before [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | appear more intelligent... aside from the message given by the content, | that is. Do you have anything ON TOPIC to contribute here? |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance | | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to | | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. | | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | | I read through the Update and apparently an Incompatible Chinese made | Water Heater was a problem KBR reps said the product was nthere before | their contract kicked in ....... but I'm sure there is more to be known | about these deaths. Lemme guess ... they were 240V water heaters with the neutral grounded in contact with the water, and the base was wired with the same Edison style 120/240V system as used in North America, and no one noticed this? OK, that's only a guess of the scenario. Maybe GFCI is needed on water heater circuits. |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance | | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to | | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. | | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | >| I read through the Update and apparently an Incompatible Chinese made >| Water Heater was a problem KBR reps said the product was nthere before [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >OK, that's only a guess of the scenario. Maybe GFCI is needed on water >heater circuits. How do you know it was not an inline heater? |>| I read through the Update and apparently an Incompatible Chinese made |>| Water Heater was a problem KBR reps said the product was nthere before [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | | How do you know it was not an inline heater? Could be. Same issues, though. |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance | | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to | | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. | | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | Iraq Contractors Electrocutions Associated Press - July 18, 2008 12:23 AM ET NEW YORK (AP) - Inferior electrical work by private contractors on U.S. military bases in Iraq is reportedly more widespread than the Pentagon has acknowledged. Former KBR electrictions told congressional investigators last week that the contractor used workers with little electrical expertise and hired foreighners who couldn't speak English. The Pentagon has said that 13 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since September 2003. It has ordered KBR to inspect all the facilities it maintains in Iraq for electrical hazards. The New York Times is reporting on its Web site that many more people have been injured, some seriously, by shocks. It cites internal Army documents. A log compiled this year at one building complex in Baghdad reportedly disclosed that soldiers complained of receiving electrical shocks in their living quarters almost daily. Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All content © Copyright 2001 - 2008 WorldNow and KRON. All Rights Reserved. For more information on this site, please read our Privacy Policy and Terms of Service. --------------------- Sure sounds like improperly bonded work to me.......though who knows how those chinese heaters are grounded internally.® http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/07/army_electrocution_071108w/ Our Hearts & Prayers go out to The Famiies of those fine Americans., Endangering their lives Protecting and Serving our Country., They are Our Brothers, Sisters, Sons, & Daighters, Mothers, Fathers, Best of Friends. The above URL has the best report I've found., These hearings are probably transmitted on CSPAN. Well, that's it for me & this post., unless someone has anything to add.Try and "Have a Great Weekend". ® http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/07/army_electrocution_071108w/ Our Hearts & Prayers go out to The Families of those fine Americans., Endangering their lives Protecting and Serving our Country., They are Our Brothers, Sisters, Sons, & Daughters, Mothers, Fathers, Best of Friends, Etc. The above URL has the best report I've found., These hearings are probably [should be] transmitted on CSPAN. "Have a Great Weekend". ® Sorry., I mispelt daughters and families earlier ~ nobody is perfect };-) Roy Q.T. [have tools, will travel] > |> The army USED to do all their own electrical word out of the > engineering > |> units. They were actually pretty good.. I guess with the low troop > |> levels they need to use contractors. All at low bid.. > |> No good.. OK. I was a COR (Contracting Officer Representative) for a few months when I was an Engineer officer in VN back in 1970/71. In all but the smallest bases, most of the hard work was done by locals either directly hired by the military (or small groups of GIs) or through contractors. The contractors usually had Americans in the higher level jobs. The next layer down were the TCNs (Third Country Nationals -- Korean & Phillipine in VN), and then locals. The contract I partly "supervised" was for AC power distribution to several medium sized bases. I read the actual contract and it was a "Cost Plus" contract with an incentive which was dependent upon the rating given by the several CORs. In my office and a nearby office we had contracting officers and CORs for all kinds of activities from road construction to water production to garbage disposal to fire fighting. In general the contracts (I believe/hope) were awarded on the basis of: 1) which "management team" would likely do the best job; and 2) which one worked the cheapest. Since it was definitely "cost plus" #2 was close to "down in the noise." We in the military were there for our year of duty. Many officers were given two completely different assignments within that year. The contractor folks (and a handful of US Government employees) provided much of the continuity. Even within the major bases the Engineers had small units (usually call ____ detachment) which comprised kids who had all kids of civilian skills. In one case, a small building burned down and our "detachment" rebuilt it within a week. The contractors may have traveled on the roads betwen the bases but they NEVER worked in fire bases or in bases that were in the middle of a continuing battle. If "engineering services" were required in these places, engineer troops and engineer officers did the job. Our Hq (the "District Engineer") provided fire trucks to protect aircraft landing at KheSahn and a nearby refuel and rearm point in 1971. When a joint RVN/USA command post was set up, I took a kid with me to "wire the lights" as the general's Hq staff didn't include any "working" engineers. The civilians made a lot of money for that time. But many/most of them had already served in the military including combat tours. The US Army used a lot of civilain contractors during the "Indian Wars." The tales of their corrumption are manifest. BUT the US won the Indian Wars using an all volunteer army and without a draft. Like it or not the military use of contractors is a good idea. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >> |> The army USED to do all their own electrical word out of the >> engineering [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** I guess it's unavoidable.. In Germany the the 60's we were in an old nazi compound. All the native electrical work was done by locals.. but in the depot where the real work was done it was our engineering platoon. I guess security concerns.. there were a lot of commie locals causing us trouble.. Eric It doesn't take much of an "electrical education" to determine whether wiring isn't safe. Just how were these "13 Americans" electrocuted? Were exposed panels not grounded? Did someone cross a "hot" with some conducting fixtures in a shower? As always, the Devil is in the details. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** Updated 12:19 p.m. ET March 20, 2008 Military ~ Iraq electrocutions probed Wrongful death lawsuit also brought against Houston-based KBR Inc. The Associated Press PITTSBURGH - A U.S. House committee chairman has begun an investigation into the electrocutions of at least 12 service members in Iraq, including that of a Pittsburgh soldier killed in January by a jolt of electricity while showering. Rep. Henry Waxman, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, said Wednesday he has asked Defense Secretary Robert Gates to hand over documents relating to the management of electrical systems at facilities in Iraq. Staff Sgt. Ryan Maseth, 24, died Jan. 2 of cardiac arrest after being electrocuted while showering at his barracks in Baghdad. Suing KBR Also Wednesday, Maseth's parents filed a wrongful death lawsuit in Allegheny County Court against KBR Inc., the Houston-based contractor responsible for maintaining Maseth's barracks. The lawsuit, which seeks unspecified damages and costs, alleges that KBR allowed U.S. troops to continue using electrical systems "which KBR knew to be dangerous and knew had caused prior instances of electrocution." "I expected that if I lost one of my sons (in the war), it would be due to an IED or firefight," Maseth's mother, Cheryl Harris, told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "I never expected to hear he would be electrocuted, that something so senseless happened to him." An Army investigation found that his death was due to improper grounding of the electric pump that supplied water to the building, Waxman said. Maseth died after an electrical short in the pump sent a current through the pipes, the California Democrat wrote in his letter. Chris Isleib, a Defense Department spokesman, said that the Pentagon has turned the matter over to the department's inspector general for a full investigation. At least 12 dead Since 2003, at least 12 service members have died in Iraq as a result of electrocution, according to the Army and Marine Corps. In October 2004, Waxman said in his letter, the Army issued a safety alert that noted five soldiers had been electrocuted that year and improper grounding was a factor in nearly all of the cases. The letter did not give the names of victims other than Maseth. Waxman asked that his committee be provided investigative reports on the dead soldiers and reports and communications regarding electrical grounding in military facilities in Iraq. In a Jan. 21 memo responding to questions from Maseth's family, the Army's criminal investigations division said the Chinese-made pump was acquired before KBR took over maintenance of the building and did not meet U.S. safety standards. KBR declined to comment on the lawsuit Wednesday, but said it would cooperate with agencies investigating Maseth's death. The company was formerly owned by Halliburton Co., the oil services conglomerate once led by Vice President Cheney. Harris said the military initially did not tell her that her son was electrocuted, and then told her he died "with a small electrical appliance in the shower." Only later did she learn the truth, she said. The investigation was sought by Rep. Jason Altmire, a Democrat who represents a district north of Pittsburgh. Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. MSN Privacy . Legal © 2008 MSNBC.com ----------------------------------- Business as Usual:-( In an unrelated GovCon report, KBR through an affiliate company has just won a 16Mil+$ Contract to upgrade a Naval Facility. ® From a Canadian Publisher http://www.canadianbusiness.com/markets/market_news/article.jsp?content=D9255RD00 Some details aired not discussed before.., You got to give it to them Canadians for caring & probing into things}:-) Thanx., Bye now. Roy Q.T. [have tools, will travel] Date: Fri, Jul 18, 2008, 11:37am From: GeraldCNewton@hotmail.com (Gerald Newton) The following story proves that the licensing of electricians, engineers, and contractors, and adopting the NEC as a minimum standard makes us safer in the USA. NEW YORK Inferior electrical work by private contractors on U.S. military bases in Iraq is more widespread than the Pentagon has acknowledged, according to a published report. A Senate panel investigating the electrocutions of Americans on bases in Iraq was told last week by former KBR Inc. electricians that the contractor used employees with little electrical expertise to supervise subcontractors in Iraq and hired foreigners who couldn't speak English. The Pentagon has said 13 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since September 2003. It has ordered Houston- based KBR to inspect all the facilities it maintains in Iraq for electrical hazards. The New York Times reported on its Web site Thursday night that many more people have been injured, some seriously, by shocks, according to internal Army documents. A log compiled this year at one building complex in Baghdad disclosed that soldiers complained of receiving electrical shocks in their living quarters almost daily, the paper reported. During just one six-month period _ August 2006 through January 2007 _ at least 283 electrical fires destroyed or damaged American military facilities in Iraq, including the military's largest dining hall in the country, according to the documents obtained by the Times. An Army survey issued in February 2007 said electrical problems were the most urgent noncombat safety hazard for soldiers in Iraq. KBR, which is responsible for providing basic services, including housing, for American troops in Iraq, said last week that its investigation had not turned up evidence of a link between its work and the electrocutions. The Army report, however, said KBR did its own study and found a "systemic problem" with electrical work, according to the Times. from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/17/iraq-faulty-wiring-a-seve_n_113498.html ~~~~~~~~ -----------------------You know., the more I ponder on this the more that comes to mind............After reading the emotional political maligning & contractor bashing in this discussion at Huffington it dawned on me that it could have been Out Right Murder. Case: When I was a boy growing up an older female friend of me & my brothers joined the Army, her name was Eppy };( She was murdered in the barracks by some other soldier in training - I don't remember if the crime was ever solved - just the sad moans and weeping at her funeral when they sent her body back home to her family which was very close to ours...I was 7yo and couldn't understand why I wouldn't see beautiful Eppy ever again... Prime Facts: What would happen if *someone temporarily shunted the neutral at some active point with a jumper to the water supply to a bathroom? Wouldn't it become Hot with respect to earth? [enough to shock or kill someone], and when a bather was to shut off the water or adjust the spout touching the metal hardware while standing in water wouldn't that person be electrocuted??? then if that *someone later on removed the jumperette - no one would find the reasons for this tragedy. Throw-Off: Anyone that was not wet or barefoot would not have felt a thing from the adjacent water works since they were never grounded to earth.... My Point: If someone can become so brazen with a companion as to commit Murder in a Training Camp., how much more brazen and likely would it be for someone to commit murder out in a Strange Country far far away from home? Perhaps this so called investigation is too narrow minded and this is really a job for for a Columbo type sleuth. I Tell You God Damn It - War is Hell on Earth - luckily for us all the rest is just a sinful shame with Hope at work. ® >I Tell You God Damn It - War is Hell on Earth - luckily for us all the >rest is just a sinful shame with Hope at work. > >® You are a Goddamned Idiot... on Earth. There we go there's suspect numero uno Re: 13 Americans have been electrocuted in Iraq since / (Evidence? ) Group: alt.engineering.electrical Date: Sat, Jul 26, 2008, 2:13pm (EDT-3) From: Mutineering@billsbackstabers.org (Hattori Hanzo) I Tell You God Damn It - War is Hell on Earth - luckily for us all the rest is just a sinful shame with Hope at work. ® You are a Goddamned Idiot... on Earth. ---------- Call me Idiot again you metuchen.., I'm giving you fair warning ~ stay out of my bizniz...Do Not Reply to my posts... Do Not Comment on my posts... Do Not Try Me... Do Go See a Priest about your hatred..... On Earth. Roy Q.T. [have tools, will travel] >There we go there's suspect numero uno > [quoted text clipped - |
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