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Electronics Forum / Design / July 2009Energy - Power Meters
Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher harmonics in the current waveform? Hardy >Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >harmonics in the current waveform? Most electronic meters are fairly wideband gadgets. But usually there's little or no real power in the harmonics. If the line voltage is an undistorted sine wave, there will be no power created by any current component but the fundamental, and that includes the DC term. John On Jun 29, 9:31 am, John Larkin <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:22:20 -0700 (PDT), HardySpicer > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > John Ok but let us suppose that we have a machine that deliberatly generates higher current harmonics. (I believe I am testing such a machine). Will the meter read low? Hardy >On Jun 29, 9:31 am, John Larkin ><jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >generates higher current harmonics. >(I believe I am testing such a machine). Will the meter read low? Like downstream from something that makes non-sine waveforms? Then the current harmonics matter. You'll have to read the specs on any specific electronic meters and see what their bandwidth is. Most electronic meters will be fairly wideband, just because that's the easiest way to do it. I think classic rotating-disk meters will read low. Not sure. John >> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >> harmonics in the current waveform? > > Most electronic meters are fairly wideband gadgets. But usually > there's little or no real power in the harmonics. Then you haven't seen a powerline plot from an "installation" like this yet: http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1464873706054091547EpKQBV  SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. >>> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >>> harmonics in the current waveform? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1464873706054091547EpKQBV Looks like it is tuned somewhere between MW and shortwave radio. >>> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >>> harmonics in the current waveform? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1464873706054091547EpKQBV Do all those wires generate harmonics? John John Larkin a écrit : >>>> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >>>> harmonics in the current waveform? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > John Yup, they're definitely not OFHC. Monstrous cabling should use Monster cable. SignatureThanks, Fred. > John Larkin a écrit : > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thanks, > Fred. So how the hell can this work? http://plugandsave.com/ There is a youtube video of it working as well. The power company charge you for VI don't they so it is best to have unity power factor. I would have thought most PFs in homes are near unity anyway. > So how the hell can this work? > > http://plugandsave.com/ It can't. > There is a youtube video of it working as well. The power company > charge you for VI don't they so it is best to have unity power factor. > I would have thought most PFs in homes are near unity anyway. Domestic consumers are only charged for real power, so power factor doesn't matter (rather, it only matters to the extent that it affects copper losses within the premises, which is negligible). The above device wouldn't save the average consumer 0.1% of their bill, let alone 15%. >> So how the hell can this work? >> >> http://plugandsave.com/ >It can't. So when I was at NASA-LeRC, some labs had several fridges, microwaves, blenders, etc. I knew enough re: procurement that there HAD to be a backstory... and asked. [The lab techs in my area had a cornpopper, but I think they chipped in themselves...] Seems they'd been handed a mandate to test the last appearance of the above alleged energy saver in residence use. [Per the ad claims...] And tested they did, with enthusiusm. They needed household appliances, of course. Here is where they found it is possible to save: If you improve the power factor, you reduce the current through an induction motor, but not the power, except.... [After all, power out must equal power in, or some basic laws of phizzies get upset...] And you pay for true power. What you DO save with that reduced current is the *slightly* reduced I^R losses in the motor windings. But those losses are such a small fraction of the whole picture; it matters only if you are a pitchman of the Billy Mayes ilk. You'll do better to close the fridge 5 seconds earlier so the light goes off faster... SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 > Here is where they found it is possible to save: If you improve the power > factor, you reduce the current through an induction motor, but not the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What you DO save with that reduced current is the *slightly* reduced I^R > losses in the motor windings. Wow, I wish I could do that -- I wouldn't have to water-cool my induction coil anymore! Tim SignatureDeep Friar: a very philosophical monk. Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms >> So how the hell can this work? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >The above device wouldn't save the average consumer 0.1% of their bill, >let alone 15%. So you do not have central HVAC, refrigerators/freezers, clothes washers, dish washers, or any other motor loads in your house? >>> So how the hell can this work? >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > So you do not have central HVAC, refrigerators/freezers, clothes > washers, dish washers, or any other motor loads in your house? The device will not reduce the losses in the motors only the losses in the conductors between it and the meter. (and maybe not even that) how these devices work is they are advertised at the beginning of a seasonal decrease in power usage so the customer sees a decreasikng usage. >>Domestic consumers are only charged for real power, so power factor >>doesn't matter (rather, it only matters to the extent that it affects [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So you do not have central HVAC, refrigerators/freezers, clothes > washers, dish washers, or any other motor loads in your house? I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). I have the others, but they don't account for a major part of the electricty bill, and the copper losses caused by any reactive component of the current draw (which is all that PFC would save) certaintly isn't significant. Or do Americans wire their homes with NiChrome? > I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). 'Central Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning' SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >>>Domestic consumers are only charged for real power, so power factor >>>doesn't matter (rather, it only matters to the extent that it affects [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). You don't have air conditioning ?:-) >I >have the others, but they don't account for a major part of the electricty >bill, and the copper losses caused by any reactive component of the >current draw (which is all that PFC would save) certaintly isn't >significant. WHAT IS your significant consumer. >Or do Americans wire their homes with NiChrome? ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food >>> So you do not have central HVAC, refrigerators/freezers, clothes >>> washers, dish washers, or any other motor loads in your house? >> >>I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). > > You don't have air conditioning ?:-) Nope. If I did, it would only get switched on for about 5 days a year. [BTW, over here, "HVAC" just means "High Voltage AC"; as opposed to 240V residential/office supplies.] >>I >>have the others, but they don't account for a major part of the electricty [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > WHAT IS your significant consumer. The computers, followed by the kettle. Heating and the cooker are gas, the washing machine does one load per week, I don't need to use a dishwasher for one plate, the microwave only runs for five minutes a day. >>>> So you do not have central HVAC, refrigerators/freezers, clothes >>>> washers, dish washers, or any other motor loads in your house? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >washing machine does one load per week, I don't need to use a dishwasher >for one plate, the microwave only runs for five minutes a day. Do you have a refrigerator? They are a notorious 0.8 PF (or worse) motor load as they run from 33 % of the time to 50% of the time. >>> WHAT IS your significant consumer. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Do you have a refrigerator? They are a notorious 0.8 PF (or worse) > motor load as they run from 33 % of the time to 50% of the time. I don't think the duty cycle is that high. I haven't measured it, but a typical rating for a fridge/freezer is 200-300 kWh/year, which is 25-35W. And even with a 0.8PF, it's not like you're actually paying for the other 0.2, only for the extra copper losses which would arise. What's the resistance of a typical 30A ring? >>I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). >You don't have air conditioning ?:-) Jim; not everyone lives in the middle of the desert... >WHAT IS your significant consumer. I'd suspect his fridge. BTW, another poster commented: > The device will not reduce the losses in the motors only the losses in > the conductors between it and the meter. (and maybe not even that) Not quite true; it will cut the I^2R losses in the motor by reducing the current. I realize I forgot part of the spiel re: the NASA story... So power needed is a function of load. Ask the water pump to raise 6 gallons per minute 8 feet, and it needs mumble_out watts. Make that 12 gallons & 10 feet; it's bigger mumble watts...true? Each of the output power needs will be reflected in an input power need of (mumble_out+the losses). And that is I*E*pf, integrated over time. And: An induction motor's power factor varies with load. The closer it is to full load, the better its power factor. Mumble_out is fixed *by the load* in everyday apps. Changing a variable must change others so you still get the output. Say: Ia * Ea * .8 pf = Ib * Eb * .9 pf If you improve the PF, and the E is fixed, Ib > Ia. Ergo, Ia^2R > Ib^2R... lower losses in b. But the alleged way to lower the pf is to lower the pf and you do that by loading the motor to full{er} load. But that's fixed, so you lower the E to improve the PF...but wait, won't that raise I? [Let's not always see the same hands, class...] And here's the hype.... when demo'ed at county fairs and flea markets; the carnie's display ALWAYS showed an unloaded, free-spinning shaft motor. THAT case could be helped by the Magic box. But in any consumer fridge, or dishwasher, you know Frigidaire or Kenmore or whoever had carefully designed the motor to be fully loaded; they are hardly going to give you more copper and iron than needed, are they? In real uses, as LeRC tested them, it's no better than a wash. >>>I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). > >>You don't have air conditioning ?:-) > >Jim; not everyone lives in the middle of the desert... Thankfully ;-) Remember folks, it's hell-on-wheels out here in Arizona and, with global warming, it'll get worse... so stay away !-) >>WHAT IS your significant consumer. > >I'd suspect his fridge. Probably rents, has steam heat provided. Has no clue that part of his rent pays for that. >BTW, another poster commented: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >give you more copper and iron than needed, are they? In real uses, as LeRC >tested them, it's no better than a wash. I vaguely remember some hype about an AC motor controller that varied its consumption according to load? Here's one for you... my electric consumption (in kWh) is about 15% lower so far this year than last... looks like global _cooling_ to me ;-) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food > >>>I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). > > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > lower so far this year than last... looks like global _cooling_ to me > ;-) Mine have been dropping for several years. Last month was still under $100. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >> >>>I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). >> > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > Mine have been dropping for several years. Last month was still >under $100. Just got my water bill. $205, for June. <ouch> >>> >>>I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). >>> > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > >Just got my water bill. $205, for June. <ouch> How much is actually water? Probably lots of "fees" for garbage, etc... taxation without vote :-( Here in Arizona, my bill is just over 1/2 that. But my electric bill was $600.73 :-( ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine Sometimes I even put it in the food [snip] > >Just got my water bill. $205, for June. <ouch> > > How much is actually water? Probably lots of "fees" for garbage, > etc... taxation without vote :-( Well, we're catching up with you. In the Pacific Northwet, no less. It seems that our water utilities 'bought' a new supply which is turning out to be a real white elephant. Many years (decades) ago, the power local company built a generating plant and, to feed it, a diversion dam to take water out of a local river, store it in a lake and then run it through the plant. Well now they've got a brand new lake where there was none before. So the real estate folks went nuts selling waterfront property. Which, then the power company throttled up the plant, turned back into a large mud flat. So the (rich) people screamed and extracted an agreement from the power company not to run the plant at any more than stream flow. Which made it uneconomical and a few years ago, they said, "Screw it. We're outa here". Which left the diversion system unmaintained, which will result in the lake drying up in a couple of years. So the rich folks talked the water utilities into buying the lake (and picking up a couple of million dollar a year tab to maintain and operate the diversion dam) as a potential water supply. But part of that agreement is that we can't actually _use_ the water, or some rich folks will have docks over a mud flat. So part of my bill consists of a charge to subsidize water skiers. SignaturePaul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain >[snip] >> > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >actually _use_ the water, or some rich folks will have docks over a mud >flat. So part of my bill consists of a charge to subsidize water skiers. And with all the well verified stories like this, there are still people that try to tell me that a moderate bit of money does not get you better response from local government. >>>> >>>I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). >>>> > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >How much is actually water? Probably lots of "fees" for garbage, >etc... taxation without vote :-( $141.63. The rest is sewer. Garbage collection fees are on the power bill, yet to come. >Here in Arizona, my bill is just over 1/2 that. > >But my electric bill was $600.73 :-( I'll be interested to see what that is. It'll be the first one with a full month of AC. I'm hoping AC isn't any more expensive than heat. Can't see why it should be; smaller temperature differential. > >> >>>I don't know what "central HVAC" is (so I'd guess that I don't have it). > >> > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Just got my water bill. $205, for June. <ouch> I have my own well, so the electric bill covers both. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! > Jim; not everyone lives in the middle of the desert... You don't have to leve in a desert to need AC. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! [snip] > And here's the hype.... when demo'ed at county fairs and flea markets; > the carnie's display ALWAYS showed an unloaded, free-spinning shaft [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > give you more copper and iron than needed, are they? In real uses, as LeRC > tested them, it's no better than a wash. Right. Because here, the motor's consumption is basically windage (friction). If you can save just a little of the circuit I^2R losses, that's a big gain in efficiency. If you save that same number of watts, but the power output is higher, the percent improvement is much smaller. SignaturePaul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Q: Why do mountain climbers rope themselves together? A: To prevent the sensible ones from going home. > I don't know what "central HVAC" is ... Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning. Hope This Helps! Rich >>>> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >>>> harmonics in the current waveform? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Do all those wires generate harmonics? No, but the stuff that is connected to them. In countries like this there are no regs related to power factor. Or pretty much anything else for that matter. The worst I have seen was a 13.56MHz high power RF source for materials processing. Kilowatt range. Size of the capacitors after the rectifier: Zero uF. There were none ... SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. >>>>> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >>>>> harmonics in the current waveform? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >there are no regs related to power factor. Or pretty much anything else >for that matter. I designed a household meter that was intended for manufacture and sales in India, by a division of Niagra Mohawk that turned out to be run by lunatics. It used an 85-cent HC05 uP with an on-board 8 bit ADC, and inductive-coupled ASK meter reading. The readout wand had to transfer enough energy into the meter to read it when power was off, which happens a lot there. It had a lot of anti-tamper hooks. Stealing power is more popular in India than cricket. Anybody who has ever been a military officer expects to get power free for some reason, too. And the meter readers are easily bribed. Our BOM cost was something silly like $11. >The worst I have seen was a 13.56MHz high power RF source for materials >processing. Kilowatt range. Size of the capacitors after the rectifier: >Zero uF. There were none ... Caps would probably have made the harmonics worse. SCR phase controls are pretty bad. Are computer power supplies PFC yet these days? Our power line waveform is still flat on top. John >>>>>> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >>>>>> harmonics in the current waveform? [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Caps would probably have made the harmonics worse. SCR phase controls > are pretty bad. Well, there were to big fat tubes in there and the current waveform was really ugly. > Are computer power supplies PFC yet these days? Our power line > waveform is still flat on top. Most of them would probably have to be because AFAIK Europe has instituted a PFC mandate for anything above a certain level and that level ain't high. Somewhere around 70W I believe. Of course it is possible that they scrape off all the PFC stuff for markets currently not yet regulated in that respect, to save a few pennies. Naturally, CFLs and such are allowed to fly under the radar screen. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. >I designed a household meter that was intended for manufacture and >sales in India, by a division of Niagra Mohawk that turned out to be >run by lunatics. It used an 85-cent HC05 uP with an on-board 8 bit >ADC, and inductive-coupled ASK meter reading. The readout wand had to >transfer enough energy into the meter to read it when power was off, >which happens a lot there. I'm not sure what an ASK is here... I assume the voltage sampling needed direct connection to the line. Also lots of transient/overvoltage protection. Sounds ..interesting... to achieve at low parts cost.. >It had a lot of anti-tamper hooks. Stealing power is more popular in >India than cricket. Anybody who has ever been a military officer >expects to get power free for some reason, too. And the meter readers >are easily bribed. Oh yes... Were you asked to build in a back door for the important folks? SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 >>I designed a household meter that was intended for manufacture and >>sales in India, by a division of Niagra Mohawk that turned out to be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I'm not sure what an ASK is here... Amplitude shift keying. >I assume the voltage sampling needed direct connection to >the line. Also lots of transient/overvoltage protection. >Sounds ..interesting... to achieve at low parts cost.. We plunked the electronics on the neutral line, and used a current shunt there. Voltage pickoff was a resistive divider from the hot side. There was a common-mode current transformer, a cheap ferrite like in a GFD; that was one way to catch cheaters who might try to sneak around the neutral path through the meter. John >>I assume the voltage sampling needed direct connection to >>the line. Also lots of transient/overvoltage protection. >>Sounds ..interesting... to achieve at low parts cost.. >We plunked the electronics on the neutral line, and used a current >shunt there. Voltage pickoff was a resistive divider from the hot >side. There was a common-mode current transformer, a cheap ferrite >like in a GFD; that was one way to catch cheaters who might try to >sneak around the neutral path through the meter. So it was 2-wire, err single hot? (In the US, all the big stuph would be unmetered if you only looked at neutral...) The voltage pickoff also powered it? Did it write to flash periodically, or...? SignatureA host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 >>>I assume the voltage sampling needed direct connection to >>>the line. Also lots of transient/overvoltage protection. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >So it was 2-wire, err single hot? (In the US, all the big stuph >would be unmetered if you only looked at neutral...) Yup, the one we did was 240 single-phase. >The voltage pickoff also powered it? Small power transformer for that. Nowadays I'd use a switcher. >Did it write to flash periodically, or...? On powerfail, from capacitive stored power. John >Amplitude shift keying. I came to know it as Audio Shift Keying, related to AFSK (Audio frequent..) Simple amplitude keying is commonly referred to as "OOK" (On Off Keying) - check Car keyfob IC vendors. Signature- Blarp the Enigmatic > >> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher > >> harmonics in the current waveform? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1464873706054091547EpKQBV I'd imagine that the local power company could cut their distribution losses simply by having a few crews dedicated to 'cleaning up' poles like this. Just snip anything that isn't properly spliced or otherwise attached and move to the next pole. Make sure to take enough wire out so the thiefs will have to scrounge for more to make it reach the lines. In fact, the best way to reduce this nonsense is to distribute power at 4 or 12kV and then meter one point feeding a distribution transformer. Then, along the lines of third world telephone rentals, you sell this power to a local businessperson that resells it to other people on the block. They can drag their extension cords or whatever up to the local vendor and he can work out the billing. So much per extension cord, install sub-metering, or whatever. People are much less likely to steal from a local resident than the big, faceless corporation, there's a guy on site with an interest in keeping an eye on splices, and it opens up a business opportunity for poor people in the slums. SignaturePaul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. -- Andrew Jackson >>> Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >>> harmonics in the current waveform? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1464873706054091547EpKQBV If you get a chance, watch the PBS documentary 'Power Trip' about AES in Georgia. Very interesting. Nobody pays their bills. Cheers >Can an energy meter measure true kwhr or will it ignore higher >harmonics in the current waveform? > >Hardy There was a recent discussion about this. I think if you take samples of current and voltage every x microseconds, on a 50 - or 60 Hz mains, and multiply those, and then add those, then you get true power per unit of time. The samples need to be smaller then the higest frequency - say shortest pulse - present. Wanted to do the PIC thing, but too much work, as Larkin already did all that I think, but probably with a 68000 ;-) > On a sunny day (Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:22:20 -0700 (PDT)) it happened HardySpicer > <gyansor...@gmail.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Wanted to do the PIC thing, but too much work, as Larkin already did all that > I think, but probably with a 68000 ;-) Yes that's right but with a normal Watt meter you would get a false reading. Suppose the current was a train of pulses for example. Hardy > > On a sunny day (Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:22:20 -0700 (PDT)) it happened HardySpicer > > <gyansor...@gmail.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > reading. > Suppose the current was a train of pulses for example. Nyquist limit. Sample fast enough to capture the highest harmonic for which you anticipate significant power. SignaturePaul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Software Engineering is like looking for a black cat in a dark room. Systems Engineering is like looking for a black cat in a dark room in which there is no cat. Knowledge Engineering is like looking for a black cat in a dark room in which there is no cat and somebody yells, "I got it!" |
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