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Lock-in amplifiers

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Spehro Pefhany - 24 Jul 2008 17:26 GMT
Has anyone designed a lab-quality lock-in amplifier?

I've got an application where a very compact (eg. size of a cig pack)
unit would be useful (the 19" rack type is not going to fly in this
application, due to size, power consumption and weight). Carrier
frequency will be low (tens of Hz).

Any suggestions? I'm trying to measure a voltage in the 10mV range
with 1ppm or so stability.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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John Larkin - 24 Jul 2008 19:15 GMT
>Has anyone designed a lab-quality lock-in amplifier?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Best regards,
>Spehro Pefhany

Sounds pretty simple: a good opamp and an analog switch to flip the
gain from +1 to -1, then a lowpass filter. At 10s of Hz, charge
injection shouldn't be a big deal. The resistors will need to be very
good to hold 1 ppm gain. VERY good.

1 ppm of 10 mV is of course 10 nV, so I hope you can amplify ahead of
the synchronous detector stage.

John
Spehro Pefhany - 24 Jul 2008 19:24 GMT
>>Has anyone designed a lab-quality lock-in amplifier?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>injection shouldn't be a big deal. The resistors will need to be very
>good to hold 1 ppm gain. VERY good.

It's gotta be sinusoidal excitation, which complicates things.

>1 ppm of 10 mV is of course 10 nV, so I hope you can amplify ahead of
>the synchronous detector stage.
>
>John

Yes, but I don't think tranformers will be stable enough.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

hrh1818 - 24 Jul 2008 21:23 GMT
On Jul 24, 1:24 pm, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>
wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:15:15 -0700, John Larkin
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> It's gotta be sinusoidal excitation, which complicates things.

Sinusoidal excitation is not a problem as you could a phase sensitive
demodulator to recover your signal.  As I see it your biggest problem
is building a very low noise narrow bandwidth stable preamplifier to
get your signal up to a respectful level for use with your phase
sensitive demodulator.

Howard

> >1 ppm of 10 mV is of course 10 nV, so I hope you can amplify ahead of
> >the synchronous detector stage.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> sp...@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers:http://www.trexon.com
> Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Spehro Pefhany - 24 Jul 2008 21:53 GMT
>On Jul 24, 1:24 pm, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
>Howard

I'm thinking the demodulation is going to have to be done in the
digital domain, and it's a lot of bits wide.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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Joerg - 24 Jul 2008 21:34 GMT
>>> Has anyone designed a lab-quality lock-in amplifier?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Yes, but I don't think tranformers will be stable enough.

If it's not a total secret, what exactly do you want to achieve with
this? Maybe there are other options.

I had that once at a client. Insurmountable noise issue, just couldn't
get low enough. Then I asked whether we can modulate that and work it
off in an RF band that's rarely used. Long silence. Then "Dang! That's it!".

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John Larkin - 24 Jul 2008 22:08 GMT
>>>Has anyone designed a lab-quality lock-in amplifier?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>It's gotta be sinusoidal excitation, which complicates things.

Yikes! you'll have to use a linear multiplier at ppm precision, or
square up the sime to ppm precision.

Charge a lot for this one.


>>1 ppm of 10 mV is of course 10 nV, so I hope you can amplify ahead of
>>the synchronous detector stage.
>>
>>John
>
>Yes, but I don't think tranformers will be stable enough.

Not many things will.

Maybe you could digitize with an 18-bit SAR converter and process
digitally. I assume you've gotta diditize eventually.

John
Joerg - 24 Jul 2008 22:46 GMT
>>>> Has anyone designed a lab-quality lock-in amplifier?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Maybe you could digitize with an 18-bit SAR converter and process
> digitally. I assume you've gotta diditize eventually.

Spehro will have to, or modulate the signal onto something right there.
Handling 10nV over anything lengthy won't work, except maybe in the
arctic sea with no thunderstorms within a 1000 mile radius. I just had
such a pleasure and we had to shield the dickens out of it.

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Mark - 25 Jul 2008 00:55 GMT
> Any suggestions? I'm trying to measure a voltage in the 10mV range
> with 1ppm or so stability.

Do you really mean stability?
Stability over what?

or resolution?

or accuracy?

Mark
Spehro Pefhany - 25 Jul 2008 14:43 GMT
>> Any suggestions? I'm trying to measure a voltage in the 10mV range
>> with 1ppm or so stability.
>
>Do you really mean stability?
>Stability over what?

Time- some hours to a day or two, TBD. Most everything else can be
backed out.

>or resolution?
>
>or accuracy?

Gack!

>Mark
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

will - 25 Jul 2008 01:27 GMT
On Jul 24, 9:26 am, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>
wrote:
> Has anyone designed a lab-quality lock-in amplifier?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> sp...@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers:http://www.trexon.com
> Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

TO GET THIS STABILITY    YOU NEED  A TEMP CONTROLED  FLUKE
METER AND A LAB AT 68 DEGREES F.       GOOD LUCK.
whit3rd - 25 Jul 2008 18:01 GMT
On Jul 24, 12:26 pm, Spehro Pefhany
<speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
> Has anyone designed a lab-quality lock-in amplifier?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Any suggestions? I'm trying to measure a voltage in the 10mV range
> with 1ppm or so stability.

Firstly, your input (preamp, wideband amp...) has to be nondistorting
at the low frequency (which will cause thermal fluctuations that
generally
CANNOT be ignored).  A transconductance amp (output is a current
source into pseudo-ground) is preferable here, as the output bias
currents of a voltage-output op amp can be troublesome.

For a uA741 op amp, chip temperature is a bigger noise source than
input offset voltage at about 4 kOhm input resistance... the
change in temperature modulates the input currents that much,
for low frequency signals.

Secondly, you have to use a mixer for your filter, and for the kind
of accuracy you want, the dynamic range of an ADC is not enough.
Mix down before converting to digital data, then use digital
signal processing to deal with rejecting out-of-band signal.
Transconductance type mixers should work out well, even
an MC1496 can do this.

Your reference sinewave has to  be as accurate as possible, of
course.  I'm not sure how one makes a high-purity 10 Hz sinewave,
but triangle and square wave generators are easy enough.  The
feedback scheme on a Wien bridge oscillator gets tricky at
low frequency (maybe you can use sample/hold for determining
the amplitude, but it takes a good phase determination to
pick the gate closing time).
Spehro Pefhany - 25 Jul 2008 19:39 GMT
>On Jul 24, 12:26 pm, Spehro Pefhany
><speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>Your reference sinewave has to  be as accurate as possible, of
>course.  I'm not sure how one makes a high-purity 10 Hz sinewave,

I'm thinking look-up table and DAC sampling at some tens (or low
hundreds) of kHz.

>but triangle and square wave generators are easy enough.  The
>feedback scheme on a Wien bridge oscillator gets tricky at
>low frequency (maybe you can use sample/hold for determining
>the amplitude, but it takes a good phase determination to
>pick the gate closing time).

I could probably use an analog oscillator but I'd have to measure the
excitation signal with another ADC.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Signature

"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

whit3rd - 25 Jul 2008 21:06 GMT
On Jul 25, 2:39 pm, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>
wrote:

> I'm thinking look-up table and DAC sampling at some tens (or low
> hundreds) of kHz.

Like, with an iPod?   Should work, if the subsonic range isn't
filtered.
I really like having test-CD tracks transferred to a little MP3
player; it
doesn't have as many  knobs as a wave generator, but it's
accurate and convenient.
 
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