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DTV antennas?

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Joerg - 11 Jul 2008 21:45 GMT
Ok, guys, as predicted it's the pits. Digital TV cutting in and out at
random because of multipath and other disturbances. Analog never does
that, it simply performs better. But it's almost gone :-(

Besides the fact that newer antennas should have their UHF section tuned
to Ch51 instead of Ch69, what other caveats are there? I have seen some
weird scenarios, like UHF-only yagis mounted vertically. AFAIK the
transmitter antennas are supposed to be horizontal. Of course those
simple FCC station lists say nothing about that, or much else for that
matter.

I wish the situation improves when DTV partially migrates to VHF. At
least then we could see the news.

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Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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mpm - 12 Jul 2008 01:18 GMT
On Jul 11, 3:45�pm, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
wrote:
> Ok, guys, as predicted it's the pits. Digital TV cutting in and out at
> random because of multipath and other disturbances. Analog never does
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
> Use another domain or send PM.

Bummer to hear about that.
Not all DTV allocations replicate their analog coverages, but most do.

As for the broadcast end of things, the FCC's website does provide
antenna detail.
Manuf, model, height and pattern.   If you're good, you can pretty
easily decode the horiz & vertical, # of bays, and gain of the
antennas just by deciphering the antenna model number...

For example, KFOX in El Paso, TX.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=33716

Send me your coordinates (or nearby street intersection) and the
channel number you are having trouble with.  I'll be happy to take a
look at it for you.    -mpm
Joerg - 12 Jul 2008 14:42 GMT
> On Jul 11, 3:45�pm, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> For example, KFOX in El Paso, TX.
> http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=33716

Ok, yes, if you go into every filed record. That'll take forever. But
not on a list.

> Send me your coordinates (or nearby street intersection) and the
> channel number you are having trouble with.  I'll be happy to take a
> look at it for you.    -mpm

Thanks, but it's actually most of the digital channels. In bad weather
nearly all collapse. Yesterday I saw something weird. Outside TV didn't
have 29-1 programmed, so I did an "add channel search" upon which it
promptly lost all memory of any DTV station. Great. But it found a cable
leak signal that happened to be the channel we wanted to watch, in
analog. Then the cabnle company must have lost the feed just like we do,
audio cut out, blocks show up, blocks get bigger, the whole thing
freezes into a huge Picasso. Oh boy, I foresee a great unhappiness
boiling up with the masses.

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mpm - 12 Jul 2008 16:20 GMT
On Jul 12, 8:42 am, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
wrote:
> > On Jul 11, 3:45�pm, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Are you out in the boonies or something??
In most cases DTV replicates the former analog coverages.
Are you sure you don't have a bad cable, connectors, or set??

Sounds fishy to me.  My two cents.

BTW:  You only have to look up the stations of interest in your area.
Just pick one that's not coming in, and review the 41dBu countour.

For instance, the KFOX-DT example provided previously.
Here's its 41dBu contour:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1092992.html
If you lived in El Paso, would your residence be contained within the
blue line or not?

Actually, this is a really good example.  KFOX (from memory) is on
Ranger Peak.  From there, at about 250 feet AGL or so, you could have
skimming line-of-sight propagation into Las Cruces, NM - but I'll bet
DTV coverage there isn't as great as advertised on the graph!! (?)

I believe these countours are calculated using Longley-Rice
propagation models, which would consider terrain.  But maybe KFOX is
higher than I thought - though none of those towers on Ranger Peak are
all that tall..  Hummm....

Anyway, I do think that poking around on a few channel contours would
help you confirm whether you "should" be receiving signal or not.   Or
call the local station engineer.   Most I know are very willing to
help.  It's actually part of their job description.  Good luck.

-mpm
RST Engineering (jw) - 12 Jul 2008 17:10 GMT
Joerg and I are in very similar circumstances regarding propagation.  At our
front door between us and the bay area there are these little hills called
the Coast Range with the tallest being Mt. Diablo about two thousand feet
higher than our elevation in the foothills of the Sierra and pretty much
line of sight straight between us and the bay area transmitter sites.  At
our back door there is this little ridge of hills called the Sierra, most of
which top out a little over 9 grand.  And to our north and south we have
little ridges and valleys of the Sierra foothills.

Boonies?  Hey, we're so far out in the boonies they have to pipe sunshine in
to us {;-)

Jim

Are you out in the boonies or something??
In most cases DTV replicates the former analog coverages.
Are you sure you don't have a bad cable, connectors, or set??

-mpm
mpm - 12 Jul 2008 18:09 GMT
On Jul 12, 11:10 am, "RST Engineering \(jw\)"
<j...@rstengineering.com> wrote:
> Joerg and I are in very similar circumstances regarding propagation.  At our
> front door between us and the bay area there are these little hills called
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> -mpm

That same topography (all things being equal) should have been a
problem for analog as well then.
Though, with analog, you can still get a picture even with some
multipath and/or knife-edge diffraction going on.
Much less so with DTV, though the receivers are getting better....
Joerg - 12 Jul 2008 20:38 GMT
> On Jul 12, 11:10 am, "RST Engineering \(jw\)"
> <j...@rstengineering.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> multipath and/or knife-edge diffraction going on.
> Much less so with DTV, though the receivers are getting better....

Analog degrades very gracefully. But we had situations where analog was
nearly perfect yet almost all digital channels croaked.

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Joerg - 12 Jul 2008 17:18 GMT
> On Jul 12, 8:42 am, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
> higher than I thought - though none of those towers on Ranger Peak are
> all that tall..  Hummm....

That's the problem. They think that oversimplified SNR calcs are good
enough. With ATSC it ain't, it falls apart the minute you hit multipath.

> Anyway, I do think that poking around on a few channel contours would
> help you confirm whether you "should" be receiving signal or not.   Or
> call the local station engineer.   Most I know are very willing to
> help.  It's actually part of their job description.  Good luck.

Or just hang up on TV ;-)

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Jonathan Kirwan - 12 Jul 2008 18:59 GMT
>Or just hang up on TV ;-)

That's my recommendation.  No TV for me for almost 20 years and I'm
not at all inclined to change it.  And I live in a house where my wife
_does_ watch.  I'm never even tempted to sit by her at those times and
watch.  Other things perhaps, while she is occupied, yes.  But not
watch the TV.

Jon
Jeff Liebermann - 12 Jul 2008 16:48 GMT
>As for the broadcast end of things, the FCC's website does provide
>antenna detail.
>Manuf, model, height and pattern.   If you're good, you can pretty
>easily decode the horiz & vertical, # of bays, and gain of the
>antennas just by deciphering the antenna model number...

Yep, but you can't decode it from the FCC data.  The typical Narda
field strength meter:
<http://www.narda-sts.us/products_highfreq_srm.php>
yields the equivalent of a isotropic receive antenna by conglomerating
the various polarizations into a single reading.  That's what's
plotted (and interpolated) on the FCC site.

>For example, KFOX in El Paso, TX.
>http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=33716
>
>Send me your coordinates (or nearby street intersection) and the
>channel number you are having trouble with.  I'll be happy to take a
>look at it for you.    -mpm

One of the fun things to do is to use the antenna pattern from the FCC
web pile to generate a field strength plot of the area using free
software such as Radio-Mobile:
<http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html>
and the SRTM topo maps.  The FCC does it crudely for "coverage area"
such as this:
<http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1092992.html>
It would be rather bad if you were located in a protected null in the
pattern.  I can grind out a sample if you supply the station.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
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mpm - 12 Jul 2008 18:08 GMT
> >As for the broadcast end of things, the FCC's website does provide
> >antenna detail.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

A Narda meter will read field strength in terms of E or H field, not
power density.
Though I supose if you know enough about the probe, you can do the
conversions...

Also, be advised that for FM at least, the FCC uses a modified
Bullington propagation model which will not consider obstructions (or
water) closer than 3km, and no further away than 16km.    So for FM
stations along the front range in Colorado for example, the FCC
patterns will deviate significantly from real world performance.  (FCC
plots have more to do with short-spacing and licensing issues, not
coverage.)

The null you're seeing in the FCC pattern (KFOX) is terrain
obstruction.  Not an antenna pattern null.
This pattern is typical of all stations on Ranger Peak.

Still, for the purpose of this thread (i.e. poor or no DTV reception),
field is not the issue.  Power density is.
The numbers & plots provided on the FCC public website are completely
adequate for determining whether or not you "should" be receiving a
DTV signal at your location.
Jeff Liebermann - 12 Jul 2008 18:46 GMT
>A Narda meter will read field strength in terms of E or H field, not
>power density.
>Though I supose if you know enough about the probe, you can do the
>conversions...

See the data sheet at:
<http://www.narda-sts.us/pdf_files/SRM3000-SelRadMeter.pdf>
Units with antenna:
   % of the standard, V/m, A/m, W/m2, mW/cm2, dBVm,
   dBmV/m, dBA/m, dBµV/m
Units without antenna:
  dBV/m, dBmV/m, dBµV/m, dBm
Isotropic Measurements (etc...).   Kinda looks like field strength and
power density.

>The null you're seeing in the FCC pattern (KFOX) is terrain
>obstruction.  Not an antenna pattern null.
>This pattern is typical of all stations on Ranger Peak.

Ok.  There was no way to determine that from the pattern.  

>Still, for the purpose of this thread (i.e. poor or no DTV reception),
>field is not the issue.  Power density is.
>The numbers & plots provided on the FCC public website are completely
>adequate for determining whether or not you "should" be receiving a
>DTV signal at your location.

I see.  So if I'm inside the 41dBu contour, I get great reception but
if I'm just outside the 41dBu contour, I get lousy reception.  A
single line isn't very useful.

Personally, I prefer a series of contours, complete with shadows and
local detail.  Here's a really awful example of the wide area coverage
for a propose ham radio VHF repeater:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/coverage/>
(I'll post some better stuff there when I find where I buried my work
disk).  Also, for cell sites (near bottom of page):
<http://802.11junk.com/cellular/jeffl/SVLY-PGE/index.html>

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
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mpm - 13 Jul 2008 00:25 GMT
Jeff,
I've spent a career creating, reviewing, and analyzing RF propagation
maps.
I agree the one you posted (of the amateur station) is pretty hard to
read.

As for the single contour, you can't say with certainty that past the
line there will no reception.
In fact, there will be.  And, inside the lines there will also be
places with no coverage.
But 41dBu of signal is sufficient for adequate coverage - absent any
weird stuff.

Also, the dBu requirement changes slightly by frequency.  Keep that in
mind.

What you might need is a full study, using the tighest topo data and
calculation grids you can live with - but even that won't give you
indoor reception.   For that, you'd need extensive ray-tracing models,
etc..., and frankly by that point, you're more likely to invest in an
outdoor antenna on a pole, or cable / satellite, etc...

For cell sites, remember they are more concerned about adjacent
channel re-use (and interference with CDMA systems, etc..) , not
maximum RF coverage.   So generally, cell site plots much more
resolution than broadcast to be of any practical use.
Jeff Liebermann - 13 Jul 2008 03:13 GMT
>I've spent a career creating, reviewing, and analyzing RF propagation
>maps.

Remind me to bug you when I have a propogation problem.  No good deed
is every left unpunished.

>I agree the one you posted (of the amateur station) is pretty hard to
>read.

Yep.  My study sucks, but it's is the only one that I could find on my
PC that covers a wide area.  The others are worse.  The
non-perspective version is somewhat easier to read.  I did some fast
cleanup, shrank the files a bit, and reposted them at:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/coverage/kg6nri/>
Incidentally, KG6NRI had just entered high skool at the time when he
moved to Prundale and wanted to know the coverage from his new house.
I cranked out those propagation studies for him.  However, he also
thought they stunk and did his own.  See:
<http://cypresslabs.net/~kg6nri/repeater/coverage.png>
I'll post some more examples as I find them.

However, this isn't about me.  It's about Jeorg and his DTV problem. A
bit of digging shows that he lives in Cameron Park, CA.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Park,_California>
which shows a lat-long of 38.676389N -120.989444W.  Plugging into:
<http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp>
at a range of 75 miles, there are DTV stations on 18, 21, 26, 35, 43,
46, 53, 56, 61, 62, and 63 resulting in:
<http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=38%2E6764&longitude=%2D120%2E
9894&magnetic_north=%2D13%2E25&range=75&sort=channel&show_expired=False&show_con
struction=False&show_analog=False&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations
>
A few are losers because their antenna patterns are in the wrong
direction.  The eliminates 26 and 43.  Look at the "Transmitter
Antenna" column for how it works.

Jeorg... which channels do you want to watch?

>As for the single contour, you can't say with certainty that past the
>line there will no reception.
>In fact, there will be.  And, inside the lines there will also be
>places with no coverage.

My point exactly.

>But 41dBu of signal is sufficient for adequate coverage - absent any
>weird stuff.

Sitting behind a small hill or obstruction is not "weird stuff".  I
run into it every day.  That's why I use the SRTM digital topo maps
and such to get as much detail and accuracy as possible.  I dunno if
the 41dBu contour are sufficient to determine if one can use rabbit
ears or if one requires an outside directional antenna and rotator.  I
kinda prefer to know the approximate signal strength in the vicintiy.
However, I will agree that the 41dBu contours are sufficient
demonstrate to advertisers that they can reliably cover the included
area.  Also for defining the protected area for cochannel, adjacent
channel, and alternate channel protection.

>Also, the dBu requirement changes slightly by frequency.  Keep that in
>mind.

Yep.  They're F(50/90) noise limited contours.
 41dBu UHF
 36dBu VHF-H
 28dBu VHF-L

>What you might need is a full study, using the tighest topo data and
>calculation grids you can live with - but even that won't give you
>indoor reception.

Yep.  However, Jeorg is not doing indoor reception.  He's doing
outdoor, presumeably with a directional yagi or log periodic, possibly
with an amplifier.

>For that, you'd need extensive ray-tracing models,
>etc..., and frankly by that point, you're more likely to invest in an
>outdoor antenna on a pole, or cable / satellite, etc...

I think he's already made the investment.  I've never tried the ray
tracing models, mostly because I've never needed that level of
accuracy.  For a rooftop DTV antenna, methinks the SRTM 1 arc second
topo maps are good enough.

>For cell sites, remember they are more concerned about adjacent
>channel re-use (and interference with CDMA systems, etc..) , not
>maximum RF coverage.   So generally, cell site plots much more
>resolution than broadcast to be of any practical use.

From my limited experience, the cellular companies seem to be more
interested in minimizing the number of cell sites and fudging the
results to make it look like they coverage in areas where it's
marginal.   The propagation prediction programs are able to generate
detailed levels of signal strength.  The junk I posted has 12 levels
of signal strength.  Yet the posted cellular coverage maps frequently
have much less granularity with perhaps 3 levels being most common.

Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Joerg - 13 Jul 2008 21:27 GMT
>> I've spent a career creating, reviewing, and analyzing RF propagation
>> maps.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Jeorg... which channels do you want to watch?

Summaries like this aren't too accurate. I believe they do not take into
account topograhical issues such as mountain ridges. Some like Ch 3, 10,
13, 31, 40 etc. are on there. Other like Ch 8 or Ch 65 aren't. We've got
to take what we get. Some locals will be gone with DTV, some analog ones
from the Bay Area still arrive analog but that'll be history Feb-2009.

>> As for the single contour, you can't say with certainty that past the
>> line there will no reception.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> area.  Also for defining the protected area for cochannel, adjacent
> channel, and alternate channel protection.

Again, multipath is the big issue with ATSC.

>> Also, the dBu requirement changes slightly by frequency.  Keep that in
>> mind.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> outdoor, presumeably with a directional yagi or log periodic, possibly
> with an amplifier.

Yes, a BIG yagi plus mast amp, head distribution amp, the works.

>> For that, you'd need extensive ray-tracing models,
>> etc..., and frankly by that point, you're more likely to invest in an
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> results to make it look like they coverage in areas where it's
> marginal.  ...

They usually do not publish detailed coverage maps but they should. The
only way to find out is aksk around who uses which carrier and how it
works. That's what I did.

>  ... The propagation prediction programs are able to generate
> detailed levels of signal strength.  The junk I posted has 12 levels
> of signal strength.  Yet the posted cellular coverage maps frequently
> have much less granularity with perhaps 3 levels being most common.

Here is another blunder of the TV set designers: They ignored the fact
that you do not have any means of optimizing an antenna with DTV. The
signal is either fairly good or gone. IOW digital. No field strength
indicators, no signal quality bars, nada. IMHO a design blunder. Oh man,
if we did that in medical they'd have us all over the barrel.

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http://www.analogconsultants.com/

"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.

Jeff Liebermann - 14 Jul 2008 00:22 GMT
>> Jeorg... which channels do you want to watch?

Sorry.  I mis-spelled your name.

>Here is another blunder of the TV set designers: They ignored the fact
>that you do not have any means of optimizing an antenna with DTV. The
>signal is either fairly good or gone. IOW digital. No field strength
>indicators, no signal quality bars, nada. IMHO a design blunder. Oh man,
>if we did that in medical they'd have us all over the barrel.

Yep, major goof.  However, it's not universal.  Some hidden TV
diagnostics show signal strength, error rate, SNR, etc.  Also, some PC
based receivers have signal strength:
<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb961182.aspx>

There are also independent signal strength meters which might be
useful:
<http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfect/DigiAir-signal-meter.htm>
<http://www.emitor.se/dynamaster/file_archive/071023/1a427bf197c356347269beb9e108
159e/DigiAir%20%2d%20Manual%20English%202.0.pdf
>

I use an ancient Texscan 7272 meter and some CATV equipment for
measuring signal strength.

BITE (built in test equipment) is a mixed bag.  I've included it in
several products, only to have marketing demand that it be removed
because they didn't want to supply calibration data or argue over the
numbers.  However, production loved it because it makes final test and
QA very easy.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
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Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
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Jeff Liebermann - 14 Jul 2008 16:44 GMT
>>> Jeorg... which channels do you want to watch?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>indicators, no signal quality bars, nada. IMHO a design blunder. Oh man,
>>if we did that in medical they'd have us all over the barrel.

The lack of a signal indicator in TV sets seems to be epidemic.
However, I didn't think about the add-on boxes.  All satellite
receivers have signal indicators allegedly for dish alignment (which
is useless because of the long response time).  CATV converters have
on screen signal level indications.  A few boxes have more detailed
diagnostics.

ATSC converter boxes require some manner of signal quality indicator:
<http://www.atsc.org/standards/practices.html>
<http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_74-w-Corr-1-Amend-1.pdf>
See: Section 4.7 Consumer Interface Received Signal Quality Indicator

I read it to indicate that while a detailed signal quality indicator
would be nice, a really crude like a "good/bad" indicator will
suffice.

Section 4.2 and 4.5 cover multipath tests and issues.

It kinda makes sense to have the signal level and quality indicator in
the receiver (downconverter) section.  However, why the same feature
is absent in OTA DTV's seems rather odd.  
Signature

Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Jan Panteltje - 14 Jul 2008 17:15 GMT
>All satellite
>receivers have signal indicators allegedly for dish alignment (which
>is useless because of the long response time).

Sorry, what do you mean by that?
I have a motorized dish, the signal indicator in my soft is
intantanious (ms) and I often use it to fine poition
to a sat (to find the best signal position).
In fact without signal strength indicator you are lost in digital,
unless you take to middle of 'east nothing-west nothing'.

>I read it to indicate that while a detailed signal quality indicator
>would be nice, a really crude like a "good/bad" indicator will
>suffice.
Yes:

ftp://panteltje.com/pub/xdipo2.jpg
Jeff Liebermann - 14 Jul 2008 18:08 GMT
>>All satellite
>>receivers have signal indicators allegedly for dish alignment (which
>>is useless because of the long response time).
>
>Sorry, what do you mean by that?

One of my side lines is setting up satellite DBS and internet
antennas.  It's the price one pays for owning the required test
equipment, tools, and clues.  The only way to initially aim the dish
is with a satellite meter at the dish.  I've tried it by dragging the
receiver and a small TV on the roof.  That's when I discovered the
time lag.  My current DirecTV DVR has a built in signal indicator.  My
guess(tm) is about a 1 second delay between moving the dish, and when
the bar graph indicator shows a change.  Several previous receivers
had the same problem.  However, I've played with a DreamBox and
several FTA receivers, that are almost instantaneous.  I guess it
varies by manufacturer.

>I have a motorized dish, the signal indicator in my soft is
>intantanious (ms) and I often use it to fine poition
>to a sat (to find the best signal position).
>In fact without signal strength indicator you are lost in digital,
>unless you take to middle of 'east nothing-west nothing'.

I live in a dense forest with 60 meter tall trees.  I can see one
satellite (101) through a hole in the branches.  Every spring, I have
to move my dish as the hole moves up.  I get LOTS of practice using
various dish aiming tools.

>>I read it to indicate that while a detailed signal quality indicator
>>would be nice, a really crude like a "good/bad" indicator will
>>suffice.
>Yes:
>
> ftp://panteltje.com/pub/xdipo2.jpg

Very nice.  However, that's for a satellite receiver.  Joerg has an
ATSC TV, which lacks the necessary interface.  Most of the cheap ATSC
to NTSC video converter boxes have no way to extract diagnostic info.
Maybe if I can find a converter with an accessible JTAG port.

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Joerg - 14 Jul 2008 18:20 GMT
>>> All satellite
>>> receivers have signal indicators allegedly for dish alignment (which
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> several FTA receivers, that are almost instantaneous.  I guess it
> varies by manufacturer.

So it's dragging the spectrum analyzer up there just because the TV
designers could not figure it out. Sad. Maybe they should teach them
what the letters RSSI mean.

>> I have a motorized dish, the signal indicator in my soft is
>> intantanious (ms) and I often use it to fine poition
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> to NTSC video converter boxes have no way to extract diagnostic info.
> Maybe if I can find a converter with an accessible JTAG port.

Converter boxes? You do not get to pick. It's calling the stores every
day until one has stock. Then get there as fast as legally possible.
Step on it. It's almost like when tomatoes or bananas show up in Moscow.

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Jeff Liebermann - 14 Jul 2008 19:33 GMT
>So it's dragging the spectrum analyzer up there just because the TV
>designers could not figure it out. Sad. Maybe they should teach them
>what the letters RSSI mean.

I am guilty of running a long cable down to my spectrum analyzer from
the DBS dish.  Now way am I going to drag my HP140T monster up a
ladder and onto the roof.  Certainly not for a customer.

I've tried various "satellite finder" type of indicators.  As usual,
the simplest and cheapest seems to work the best.
<http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Accessories/Meters/SF95L-DSS-FTA-Satellite-Si
gnal-meter.htm
>
I think I paid $8 on eBay.  However, there's a problem.  I bought 5 of
these last year and found that they all tend to oscillate.  The result
is some hysteresis in the meter indication, which makes positioning
rather entertaining.  I butchered one unit into acting fairly normally
by adding some bypasses and ferrite beads, but haven't confirmed that
my butchery will work consistently on the others.

I also have part interest in a more elaborate satellite finder (forgot
maker and model number).  It's nice because it shows the transponder
name, so I don't have to guess if I've found the right bird.  Multiple
inputs are also nice for simultaneously aiming dishes with dual (or
more) LNB's.

>Converter boxes? You do not get to pick. It's calling the stores every
>day until one has stock. Then get there as fast as legally possible.
>Step on it. It's almost like when tomatoes or bananas show up in Moscow.

Dunno.  The local Radio Shock store had a pile of the Zenith ATSC
converter boxes in stock.  About $75.  I may have timed my visit
perfectly, but they were certainly available about a week ago.  I'm on
satellite TV so I don't qualify for the government subsidized coupon.

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Joerg - 14 Jul 2008 19:40 GMT
>> So it's dragging the spectrum analyzer up there just because the TV
>> designers could not figure it out. Sad. Maybe they should teach them
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the DBS dish.  Now way am I going to drag my HP140T monster up a
> ladder and onto the roof.  Certainly not for a customer.

Done stuff like that as well. But then you need to set up an elaborate
array of mirrors. Or a web cam if you have a newfangled Internet-capable
cell phone.

> I've tried various "satellite finder" type of indicators.  As usual,
> the simplest and cheapest seems to work the best.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> inputs are also nice for simultaneously aiming dishes with dual (or
> more) LNB's.

Those are all just wideband detectors. Wouldn't be that useful for TV bands.

>> Converter boxes? You do not get to pick. It's calling the stores every
>> day until one has stock. Then get there as fast as legally possible.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> perfectly, but they were certainly available about a week ago.  I'm on
> satellite TV so I don't qualify for the government subsidized coupon.

I guess it depends on the area. This is what the Walmart clerk literally
told me on the phone: "When the truck unloads you'd have to be here
within minutes. They fly off the rack like hot cakes". I can't get there
this fast without a major speeding ticket.

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Martin Brown - 15 Jul 2008 09:37 GMT
>> Converter boxes? You do not get to pick. It's calling the stores every
>> day until one has stock. Then get there as fast as legally possible.
>> Step on it. It's almost like when tomatoes or bananas show up in Moscow.

Can't you buy one online from one of the electronics dealers?

> Dunno.  The local Radio Shock store had a pile of the Zenith ATSC
> converter boxes in stock.  About $75.  I may have timed my visit
> perfectly, but they were certainly available about a week ago.  I'm on
> satellite TV so I don't qualify for the government subsidized coupon.

The what??? In "socialist" Britian you would have to prove you were
absolutely destitute to get a subsidy on a digital set top box!

ISTR there is a scheme to make them available free to pensioners. And
more importantly some help in setting the thing up to work. The older TV
aerials lacked the right characteristics and often needed replacing for DTV.

Incidentally over here a few early adopters have come unstuck when the
latest signal encoding improvements have broken the earliest firmware.
It is estimated that about 1% of all set top boxes sold to date will
fail as a result (although most early adopters probably have replaced it
by now). At present only a few parts of Scotland are affected.

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Jeff Liebermann - 15 Jul 2008 17:02 GMT
>> Dunno.  The local Radio Shock store had a pile of the Zenith ATSC
>> converter boxes in stock.  About $75.  I may have timed my visit
>> perfectly, but they were certainly available about a week ago.  I'm on
>> satellite TV so I don't qualify for the government subsidized coupon.

>The what??? In "socialist" Britian you would have to prove you were
>absolutely destitute to get a subsidy on a digital set top box!

See:
<http://www.dtv2009.gov>
Basically, the victims of the latest government plot to obsolete
everyone's TV are being compensated for the inconvenience.  Please
note that we're having a national election in Nov 2008, with a new
government in place in Jan 2009.  The transition is in Feb 2009 thus
insuring that the incumbents will be safely out of the country when
the GUM (great unwashed masses) riot at the doors of the houses of
government chanting "You guys broke my TV".

One does not need to demonstrate impoverishment or even financial
ineptitude in order to obtain a coupon.  That's done indirectly as
those that can afford cable TV or satellite TV are not eligible for a
coupon.  We may not be socialist quite yet, but we do know how such
things are done.

However, there is one good thing about the converter coupon program.
In order to qualify for the plan, the converter box has to meet the
NTIA A/74 specifications which are surprisingly sane when compared to
some other specifications I've been forced to read and follow:
<http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_2e.htm>

>ISTR there is a scheme to make them available free to pensioners.

The only pensioners we have are pensions from government services.
Most of the 409K retirement plans have imploded and are not paying
dividends.  Good plan as the government always takes care of its own.

>And
>more importantly some help in setting the thing up to work.

Since the boxes are purchased from a retailer, the assumption is that
the retailer is responsible for assisting the customer.  Actually,
that does tend to be a problem as it adds yet another IR remote
control.  (I have 5 on the table).

>The older TV
>aerials lacked the right characteristics and often needed replacing for DTV.

Pardon my ignorance, but what "characteristic" of an antenna is
lacking for DTV?  Unless you have a resonant hole in the middle of a
channel, there's not much I can do to an antenna to make it difficult
to receive DTV.  Besides, such an antenna would also not work for
analog.  For marginal situations, I can see a bigger antenna, adding a
low noise amplifier, or repositioning, but not replacing the antenna.
<http://www.antennaweb.org>

>Incidentally over here a few early adopters have come unstuck when the
>latest signal encoding improvements have broken the earliest firmware.

It would have been so nice to be able to do OTA (over the air)
firmware updates, but that might have added a few pennies to the cost.

>It is estimated that about 1% of all set top boxes sold to date will
>fail as a result (although most early adopters probably have replaced it
>by now). At present only a few parts of Scotland are affected.

Once upon a time, I personally tested and ran QA on approximately 100
radios prior to shipping.  About 5% of the radios were deemed
"defective" by the recipients.  I've used that number ever since for
the percentage of working products, that are deemed defective. Another
interpretation is that 5% of the customers will claim something is
defective, even when it's working.

>Regards,
>Martin Brown
>** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

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Joel Koltner - 15 Jul 2008 17:37 GMT
> Actually,
> that does tend to be a problem as it adds yet another IR remote
> control.  (I have 5 on the table).

I don't have a specific model for you, but I do recall reading the manual for
at least one converter box that claimed it used "common" remote control
signals that "any universal remote" would likely already have preprogrammed.

You seem like you might be the kind of guy who'd have one of those really
fancy unviersal remotes with an LCD, USB connectivity, etc. anyway? :-)

> It would have been so nice to be able to do OTA (over the air)
> firmware updates, but that might have added a few pennies to the cost.

Plus a security concern that, if the private keys got out, any kid in the
neighborhood with the a laptop and a "black box" could drive around the
neighborhood and disable a bunch of the converters.

> Once upon a time, I personally tested and ran QA on approximately 100
> radios prior to shipping.  About 5% of the radios were deemed
> "defective" by the recipients.

This just reflects that fact that, on customer returns, there's usually no
differentiation given between "hard defects" (it isn't working as designed at
the factory) and "brain-dead designer defect" (it's so cumbersome/annoying to
use that it's little better than nothing at all).  These days with so much
software running the show, the later show up far more often than the former...
I think I've mentioned on here before how much lobbying it took to get some
software guys to not use something like a 1/4 second "debounce" for
pushbuttons on a standard LCD/directional keypad widget, having to convince
them that "expert users" who had memorized the path to their desired function
could press buttons a lot faster than four times per second. :-(

---Joel
Jeff Liebermann - 15 Jul 2008 18:15 GMT
>> Actually,
>> that does tend to be a problem as it adds yet another IR remote
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>at least one converter box that claimed it used "common" remote control
>signals that "any universal remote" would likely already have preprogrammed.

Yep.  That saves the cost of supplying a remote control.

>You seem like you might be the kind of guy who'd have one of those really
>fancy unviersal remotes with an LCD, USB connectivity, etc. anyway? :-)

That was last year.  This year, I'm into downsizing, simplification,
and de-trashing the house.  
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/LivingRoom01.html>
The number of boxes in the 19" racks and on the "home entertainment"
pile has grown since I took that picture.  

I do have a Radio Shock universal remote control buried somewhere in a
box.  I bought it because it would run some obscure C band satellite
receiver I found at a thrift shop.  However, for running the TV, I
have several Windoze Mobile PDA's setup with IR remote software.  I
also have a home made IR repeater in an other room.  The big advantage
is that I can setup the screen with only the buttons I want, and not
have to deal with buttons that I'll never use.  Macros are also handy
so that I have a "shutdown" button that turns everything off.

>> It would have been so nice to be able to do OTA (over the air)
>> firmware updates, but that might have added a few pennies to the cost.
>
>Plus a security concern that, if the private keys got out, any kid in the
>neighborhood with the a laptop and a "black box" could drive around the
>neighborhood and disable a bunch of the converters.

Yep.  Security is a real problem.  I'm sure some manner of security
arrangement can be contrived, like having the customer go online and
authorize a firmware update.  

Soon, every kid will have an ATSC 8VSB modulator and transmitter in a
black box.  Actually, I did a search for a do-it-thyself 8VSB
modulator or transmitter, and couldn't find one.  Lots of professional
broadcast equipment, but nothing suitable for the neighborhood TV
hacker.  One the kid has the transmitter, he needs to guess the
channel the receiver is watching.  Since the encryption will probably
be keyed to the unit serial number, he also needs to break in and
obtain the serial number.

>> Once upon a time, I personally tested and ran QA on approximately 100
>> radios prior to shipping.  About 5% of the radios were deemed
>> "defective" by the recipients.

>This just reflects that fact that, on customer returns, there's usually no
>differentiation given between "hard defects" (it isn't working as designed at
>the factory) and "brain-dead designer defect" (it's so cumbersome/annoying to
>use that it's little better than nothing at all).

True.  Most stores do not have personnel that are even capable of
determining if it's defective.  That's one reason for why the
existence of the Geek Squad and Fire Dog people attached to the US
electronic retailers.  The stores have realized that the abilities of
the salesmen are limited and need some expertise.

>These days with so much
>software running the show, the later show up far more often than the former...

My test and example was for a device that had absolutely no software.
Todays versions would be exactly as you described, and probably have
additional software issues.  This was strictly the customers
perception of proper operation.  Incidentally, when I traced the
source and complaints on the 5 units that were returned, I found 3
operator errors, and 2 that simply changed their minds and wanted
their money back.  The only way to do that was to claim the units were
"defective" and to not accept a replacement.

>I think I've mentioned on here before how much lobbying it took to get some
>software guys to not use something like a 1/4 second "debounce" for
>pushbuttons on a standard LCD/directional keypad widget, having to convince
>them that "expert users" who had memorized the path to their desired function
>could press buttons a lot faster than four times per second. :-(

I didn't catch that posting, but I can certainly see the problem. User
hostile interfaces are all too common.  Unfortunately, many such user
interface requirements have undesired consequences.  For example, one
product received complaints that the button labels were too small and
difficult to read.  The revised model had larger buttons and labels
that could be read from about 3m away.  The result was that sales
dropped like a rock.  My job was to figure out why.  It didn't take
long to discover that the customers perceived anything with huge
buttons and labels as something suitable for a child.  In other words,
it looked like a toy.  The buttons were replaced with the older
smaller versions, and sales resumed at their normal pace.

>---Joel
>
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Joerg - 15 Jul 2008 18:59 GMT
[...]

> That was last year.  This year, I'm into downsizing, simplification,
> and de-trashing the house.  
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/LivingRoom01.html>
> The number of boxes in the 19" racks and on the "home entertainment"
> pile has grown since I took that picture.  

Oh man, my wife would have a hissy fit if she came home and saw a pile
like on the floor of the room in the back.

[...]

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Joel Koltner - 15 Jul 2008 19:23 GMT
> Oh man, my wife would have a hissy fit if she came home and saw a pile like
> on the floor of the room in the back.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jeff is single. :-)
Jeff Liebermann - 15 Jul 2008 21:54 GMT
>> That was last year.  This year, I'm into downsizing, simplification,
>> and de-trashing the house.  
>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/LivingRoom01.html>
>> The number of boxes in the 19" racks and on the "home entertainment"
>> pile has grown since I took that picture.  

>Oh man, my wife would have a hissy fit if she came home and saw a pile
>like on the floor of the room in the back.

I solved that problem many years ago.  I'm not married.  Incidentally,
the mess is considerably larger at this time as I'm going through all
my boxes of magazines and junk, desperately trying to reduce the
volume.  Unfortunately, some of my friends and neighbors are doing the
same thing and giving me their junk.  I think I have more broken toys,
in need of repair, than working toys.

When I bring various ladyfriends to the house, the usual comment is
something like "You live like this?"  It's usually downhill from
there.

For completeness, my palatial office:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/office/>
Hmmm... last photo is 2 years old.  Time for a new one (after I clean
it up).

For entertainment, what I do all day:
<http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/panorama/jeffl.htm>
Wait until it's done loading.  Then, move the mouse around the
picture.  The hard part was not smiling or laughing while the pictures
were being taken.

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Joerg - 15 Jul 2008 22:39 GMT
>>> That was last year.  This year, I'm into downsizing, simplification,
>>> and de-trashing the house.  
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> something like "You live like this?"  It's usually downhill from
> there.

Same with me. Until I met the one. Then I had to get rid of 15 TV
carcasses and all kinds of other stuff.

> For completeness, my palatial office:
> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/office/>
> Hmmm... last photo is 2 years old.  Time for a new one (after I clean
> it up).

I know a VP in an electronics company who had to ask the CEO whether he
could borrow his office for a meeting with a business visitor. I also
know the engineer who won the "Messiest Office Desk" contest of the San
Jose Mercury.

> For entertainment, what I do all day:
> <http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/panorama/jeffl.htm>
> Wait until it's done loading.  Then, move the mouse around the
> picture.  The hard part was not smiling or laughing while the pictures
> were being taken.

There also must have been a mild earthquake at the 90 degree position ;-)

I remember all the mice from a thread long ago. What do you do with all
those?

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Jeff Liebermann - 16 Jul 2008 01:18 GMT
>Same with me. Until I met the one. Then I had to get rid of 15 TV
>carcasses and all kinds of other stuff.

When I was much younger, it was me that was chasing the women.  Now
that I'm single, unattached, financially above water, older, and
fairly reliable, the women are chasing me.  That gives me some
negotiating room over such things as the location of my latest
project.  I once thought I had found a suitable match.  Then, she
decided to take issue with my kitchen chemical and nuclear
experiments.  I've been told that I can't be domesticated.

>I know a VP in an electronics company who had to ask the CEO whether he
>could borrow his office for a meeting with a business visitor. I also
>know the engineer who won the "Messiest Office Desk" contest of the San
>Jose Mercury.

It's been worse.  About a year ago, I had some surgery done.  I didn't
have much strength for a few months, so I just stopped cleaning.
Things just sat where I dumped them.  I'm still recovering from that
exercise in neglect.

One of my techs had a slogan and excuse: "The bigger the mess, the
better it works".  I've often suspected he was right.

>> <http://www.LearnByDestroying.com/panorama/jeffl.htm>
>There also must have been a mild earthquake at the 90 degree position ;-)

The camera was on a tripod, about 1 meter away.  A friend was pushing
the shutter release very time I rotated.  He pushed too hard and
caused the tripod legs to bend slightly.  I should fix it or do it
again, but it's good enough.  Incidentally, the method is quite usable
for showing 360 product views.  Just put the product on a turntable.
There are more efficient (less network traffic) methods, but for small
images, the Javascript method is good enough.

>I remember all the mice from a thread long ago. What do you do with all
>those?

Mice and power cords are considered consumables.  Customers often need
or want a mouse for various reasons.  Usually, it's because there's so
much crud inside their mouse, that it stops working.  However, the
mess on the door is strictly storage.  I could probably find a better
way to store mice, where the cords do not tangle, but the door works
just fine.  The brand new mice are stored elsewhere.

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mpm - 16 Jul 2008 06:02 GMT
> When I was much younger, it was me that was chasing the women. �Now
> that I'm single, unattached, financially above water, older, and
> fairly reliable, the women are chasing me. �

Yeah, but you're fatter now so they can catch up!  :))

Just kidding. -
It was the first thing that popped into my mind.

Plastic zip lock bags work pretty well for storage, by the way.
At least it stop cord tangles.

-mpm
Jeff Liebermann - 16 Jul 2008 17:47 GMT
>Plastic zip lock bags work pretty well for storage, by the way.
>At least it stop cord tangles.

Yeah, I use ZipLoc bags for small parts and storage.  The commercial
variety can be had anti-static and in a fairly wide assortment of
sizes.  The supermarket variety arrive in pint, quart and gallon
sizes, with thickness measured in "storage", "sandwich", and
"freezer".  I determined experimentally that the freezer variety were
sufficiently anti-static to use with most devices, but the odd manner
of specifying the sizes left me wondering.  I can't think of any
useful application where I would want to store a gallon of something
inside a Ziploc bag.  Why would they measure it that way?  And, why no
thickness on the package?

It was about 1999, when I suggested to a friend that she have her 6th
grade(?) class measure the capacity of the common supermarket bags and
see if they really do hold a pint, quart, or gallon.  Like all simple
things, the project exploded well beyond my original intentions.

The first problem was getting 11 year olds to successfully fill a
Ziploc bag with water, close the seal to make sure it holds the water,
and measure the contents in a simulated graduate cylinder.  I had
originally thought, but not specified, that a small team would be
assigned to do the filling, but the teacher wanted the entire class to
have the experience of making measurements.  Everyone brought in an
assortment of bags, tried to fill them in the school bathroom, and
dumped much of the contents on the floor, in the hallways, and in the
classroom.  It's not as easy as it would seem.  I just tried filling
and sealing a pint size Ziploc bag with water and not spill any.  I
failed.

Measuring was another problem.  The skool doesn't have gallon size
graduate cylinders, or gallon kitchen measuring cups.  The typical
kitchen pint size measuring glasses were used, resulting in more water
on the floor.

Of course, the full bags closely resembled a water balloon, which
promptly precipitated a impromptu water filled Ziploc bag fight.
Fortunately, nobody was hurt or soaked.  Also fortunately, they
decided to do it outside.

I avoided the school janitor, who was rumored to be actively seeking
my execution.  Of course, I incurred the wrath of the administration,
who lectured me sternly, but did nothing.

I'm also good at creating problems where none had previously existed.
The teacher asked the class to tabulate the measurements they had made
during this exercise.  That's when I noticed a slight anomaly.  The
older Ziploc bags had only one seal line.  The newer ones had two.
When Ziploc added the 2nd seal line, they did not expand the bag size
to accommodate the loss in volume.  The old bags would hold the
specified volume.  The new bags were slightly short.

I decided that the student should have a suitably printed copy of what
was their first formal reports.  So, I took it upon myself to write up
the whole experiment, produce graphs, run some stats on the results,
insert some pictures, print about 100 copies, and pass them around.
There was some grumbling about the photos of the mess, but no real
problems.

Then, I cleverly decided to send a copy to SC Johnson, the new owners
of Ziploc.  Major mistake.  They noticed the part about the undersized
capacity and went into panic mode.  Most employees were good natured
about the issue and agreed that some production changes will need to
be made to slightly increase the size of the double seal bags.
Unfortunately, one phone call from their attorney was not so good
natured.

So, for storing my mice, would you like a pint, quart, or gallon size
mouse?

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Michael A. Terrell - 16 Jul 2008 18:07 GMT
> So, for storing my mice, would you like a pint, quart, or gallon size
> mouse?

  I use the sandwich sized commercial (Food service) packaged Ziplock
bags from Sam's club.  So far I have bagged a couple hundred mice, and
keep finding more of them. I think that they breed, at night.

  I use the same in the gallon size for some cables and manuals. There
is an industrial packaging supplier that has the heavy gauge bags in
about 100 different sizes and gauges, packed 1000 to the box. I think
they have some antistatic, as well.

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Rich Grise - 17 Jul 2008 18:04 GMT
> One of my techs had a slogan and excuse: "The bigger the mess, the
> better it works".  I've often suspected he was right.

"An empty desk is a sign of a disturbed mind." ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
Jeff Liebermann - 17 Jul 2008 19:14 GMT
>> One of my techs had a slogan and excuse: "The bigger the mess, the
>> better it works".  I've often suspected he was right.
>
>"An empty desk is a sign of a disturbed mind." ;-)
>Cheers!
>Rich

The original was "A clean desk is a sign of a sick mind."

I solved the problem by not having a real desk.  It's officially a
workbench which entitles me to make a mess without guilt:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/office/slides/radio-mess.html>
Any semblance to a desk is purely coincidental.  Notice that there's
no paper anywhere in sight.  It's all in cardboard boxes filed
chronologically.

I've also made a study of different styles of messiness.  The problem
is how to efficiently convert work area into storage area.  There are
two fundamental types of mess.  One is the vertical pile method.  The
object is to create the tallest pile, without having it fall over.
Falling over is the signal that it's time to clean up.  The other is
the territorial method.  It's intended to cover every square mm of
desk space with clutter.  No part of the desk may be visible.
Overlapping is the preferred method.  Once a persons desk is suitably
buried in clutter, it's perfectly acceptable to continue onto other
peoples benches, desks, and even the floor.  

I've successfully converted the territorial style into the vertical
style.  I became tired of having my bench turned into someone elses
temporary storage area and decided to retaliate.  I invested about an
hour cleaning up the lab.  I carefully piled all the papers, books,
magazines, dead boards, and debris on the culprits chair.  The result
was a very carefully balanced pile, about 2 meters high.  As a side
benefit, I found all my missing scope probes and clip leads.  Sorry,
no photos.

I also had a method to my madness.  The last hour of every Friday
would be devoted to cleaning up the lab.  I didn't want to deal with a
big mess when I came in on Monday.  Everyone dropped what they were
doing and cleaned up their mess.  Borrowed and stolen equipment were
also returned.  Leaving early was punishable by having all the
unclassified junk dumped on their workbench or desk.  Visiting
managers were handed a broom or told to file books and reports.  It
worked well.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Joel Koltner - 15 Jul 2008 19:21 GMT
Hi Jeff,

> Yep.  Security is a real problem.  I'm sure some manner of security
> arrangement can be contrived, like having the customer go online and
> authorize a firmware update.

Agreed, but realistically most people would probably never actually authorize
the upgrades... look at how many access points out there have "linksys" or
"dlink" or "airlink101" as their SSIDs!

Probably the best thing you could do would be to have the box alert the user
that new firmware was available, and would they like to install it? -- With
the big warning about, "blah, blah, only do this if you trust the TV station
channel 6 that it came from, etc."  And then give them the option to
"rollback" to the last installed version if there's a problem... which then
does require some extra memory to keep an old image around.

> Soon, every kid will have an ATSC 8VSB modulator and transmitter in a
> black box.  Actually, I did a search for a do-it-thyself 8VSB
> modulator or transmitter, and couldn't find one.

The GNUradio guys have a *demodulator* for it; someone over there is probably
working on a modulator as well.  It's certainly not a trivial undertaking!

> True.  Most stores do not have personnel that are even capable of
> determining if it's defective.  That's one reason for why the
> existence of the Geek Squad and Fire Dog people attached to the US
> electronic retailers.  The stores have realized that the abilities of
> the salesmen are limited and need some expertise.

...and that people are willing to pay for that expertise.  That's the part
that amazed me -- realizing that someone actually would pay, e.g., $50 just to
have someone else install a virus scanner or some more memory or something
else very "mundane."  They clearly didn't grow up in the Joerg school of "do
it yourself." :-)

---Joel
Jeff Liebermann - 15 Jul 2008 22:32 GMT
>> Yep.  Security is a real problem.  I'm sure some manner of security
>> arrangement can be contrived, like having the customer go online and
>> authorize a firmware update.

>Agreed, but realistically most people would probably never actually authorize
>the upgrades... look at how many access points out there have "linksys" or
>"dlink" or "airlink101" as their SSIDs!

That's one of my pet peeves about commodity routers.  Search
alt.internet.wireless for one of my numerous rants about "secure by
default".  At least 2-wire does it right and ships their products with
security enabled by default instead of wide open.  They've also
demonstrated that even if you attach a bright yellow label to the
router, with the password and security keys inscribed in plain text,
the typical customer will not notice.

>Probably the best thing you could do would be to have the box alert the user
>that new firmware was available, and would they like to install it? -- With
>the big warning about, "blah, blah, only do this if you trust the TV station
>channel 6 that it came from, etc."  And then give them the option to
>"rollback" to the last installed version if there's a problem... which then
>does require some extra memory to keep an old image around.

Memory is cheap.  Bricked routers and comatose ATSC converters are
not.  Your method is as good as any I could contrive.  The point is
that it OTA firmware updates can be done.  I don't see adding an
ethernet or USB port to the ATSC converter, so OTA is probably the
only way to do it effectively.  Something simpler like:
 An update is available for your converter box.  Please tune to
 channel 99 to download and install the update.  The update takes
 between 10 and 30 minutes to complete.  Please do not play with
 the controls during the update.  You will be informed when you
 may safely resume watching whatever mind numbing drivel that we
 are interrupting.  

>The GNUradio guys have a *demodulator* for it; someone over there is probably
>working on a modulator as well.  It's certainly not a trivial undertaking!

Yep.  I was thinking in terms of setting up a bootleg (illegal) DTV
station.  Pirate FM and TV stations are so commonplace, that methinks
to attract the necessary audience, pirate HDTV transmissions will be
necessary.  Finding IBOQ (HD-Radio) or European DRM decoders are easy.
Finding encoders are not.  I wanted to do a streaming MP3 FM bootleg
radio station but couldn't find an economical encoder.  Same problem
with 8VSB/ATSC encoder/modulators.  

My guess(tm) is that some test equipment manufactory (e.g. Sencore),
will arrive with an 8VSB/ATSC test generator.  Add power amplifier and
antenna, and I'm on the air.

>...and that people are willing to pay for that expertise.  That's the part
>that amazed me -- realizing that someone actually would pay, e.g., $50 just to
>have someone else install a virus scanner or some more memory or something
>else very "mundane."  They clearly didn't grow up in the Joerg school of "do
>it yourself." :-)

I prefer the "Learn By Destroying" skool of computing.  I consider
myself somewhat of a computer witch doctor or priest.  The GUM (great
unwashed masses) observe various phenomenon on their computers.
However, they are unable to adequately interpret the meaning or
predict the future (i.e. is my HD going to blow up?).  My purpose is
to act as a middle man between the GUM and the computer gods and
attempt to supply meaning and logic in an industry that lacks both.

Incidentally, I charge good money to clean up the mess left over when
Norton or MacAfee blow up.  Also, plugging marginal memory into a
working machine is a great way to scramble the drive contents.
Expertise and experience have their place.  I don't install programs I
don't trust and I always test the hell out of RAM before I install it
in a live system.

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# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558            jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS

Joel Koltner - 15 Jul 2008 23:41 GMT
> They've also
> demonstrated that even if you attach a bright yellow label to the
> router, with the password and security keys inscribed in plain text,
> the typical customer will not notice.

Yep, and call up their tech support number and complain that it's "not
working."  Grrrr...

> Pirate FM and TV stations are so commonplace, that methinks
> to attract the necessary audience, pirate HDTV transmissions will be
> necessary.

Better watch out... these days the likes of Google and Microsoft with their
"whitespace" initiative are probably even harder on you than the FCC would be
if you get caught. :-)

> Incidentally, I charge good money to clean up the mess left over when
> Norton or MacAfee blow up.

I've done a bit of computer clean-up in the past and just charged people by
the hour.  I started out writing up reports of what I'd done, but it turned
out that most people didn't even care -- I had several people ask me not to
spend the 10 minutes writing the reports!

> I always test the hell out of RAM before I install it
> in a live system.

Do you have a memory tester?  Or something more heuristic like running Doom in
a loop or whatever overnight on a "tester PC?"

---Joel
Dave Platt - 16 Jul 2008 00:45 GMT
>Do you have a memory tester?  Or something more heuristic like running Doom in
>a loop or whatever overnight on a "tester PC?"

I recently used a bootable program called MEMTEST86+ which runs quite
a selection of pattern and offset tests on the memory.  It can show
the specific conditions under which a bad-data error occurs.

It saved me a good deal of grief, I think.  It became clear within an
hour or so that my motherboard was unable to run with four DDR memory
sticks, in a dual-channel mode, with good reliability.  The DDR would
run OK in single-channel mode, but would start occasionally dropping a
bit or two in dual-channel mode.

Some searching on Google led me to conclude that it's actually a
motherboard problem (the memory-controller line drivers don't seem to
have enough current capacity to drive the capacitance of four DIMMs at
the same time).  I returned the four DIMMS, bought two larger-capacity
ones, and have successfully run these in dual-channel mode at the
highest speeds that the motherboard configuration supports... so I'm
now a happy camper and probably avoided a whole bunch of occasional
nasty intermittent errors and crashes by doing the tests.

It turns out that MEMTEST86+ is available as a standard accessory to
the Debian distribution of Linux, so I've started installing it on
each new Debian system I set up (using GRUB as the boot manager).
Definitely adds peace of mind!

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JosephKK - 17 Jul 2008 04:50 GMT
>>Do you have a memory tester?  Or something more heuristic like running Doom in
>>a loop or whatever overnight on a "tester PC?"
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>each new Debian system I set up (using GRUB as the boot manager).
>Definitely adds peace of mind!

I have had a similar experience.  Did not need memtest though.  Just
did the rearrangement.
Jeff Liebermann - 16 Jul 2008 01:45 GMT
>Yep, and call up their tech support number and complain that it's "not
>working."  Grrrr...

Most of my customers just want someone to talk to when things go
wrong.  I often feel guilty reading them the manual, but that's what
they pay me to do.  For the GUM (great unwashed masses), there's the
Geek Squad and clones that perform the same function.

>Better watch out... these days the likes of Google and Microsoft with their
>"whitespace" initiative are probably even harder on you than the FCC would be
>if you get caught. :-)

Ummm... the local pirate radio station has been busted perhaps 3 or 4
times in 13 years of almost continuous operation, without any visible
effects.  Radio Free Santa Cruz:
<http://www.freakradio.org>
I'll spare you my opinions of the FCC.

>I've done a bit of computer clean-up in the past and just charged people by
>the hour.  I started out writing up reports of what I'd done, but it turned
>out that most people didn't even care -- I had several people ask me not to
>spend the 10 minutes writing the reports!

I've had it both ways.  Most of my customers are happy with one line
descriptions.  When I do housekeeping, I keep a running log of what
was added, deleted, updated, or replaced.  However, that's just so
that I have something to tell them when they ask.  When I send them an
invoice, I usually leave out the detail.  However, when they ask for
detailed invoicing, it usually means that there considering an
insurance claim.  Those have invariably blown up on me.  To cover
myself, I take photographs, screen captures of the problems, and
occasionally make an image backup (Norton Ghost 2003) of the entire
hard disk BEFORE I start working on it.

>Do you have a memory tester?  Or something more heuristic like running Doom in
>a loop or whatever overnight on a "tester PC?"

I used to have a dedicated memory tester, but it only worked with
ancient SIMM's.  I sold it long ago.

These daze, I use:
<http://www.memtest86.com>
<http://www.memtest.org>
These boot from floppy or CD.  Really gross memory problems show up
almost immediately.  Insidious and subtle problems require an
overnight burn-in.  I run the test in the machine that will be
upgraded.  To prevent accidents, I usually unplug the HD power and
ribbon cables.  

For ECC chips, I'm very careful to watch the degree of error
correction.  Even though they work, a high rate of error correction is
a sign of impending doom.  I just happen to be running Memtest86+ on a
Dell PowerEdge 600c for the last 3 days.  The two sticks of 256MB ECC
RAM are not showing no errors, but 3 ECC error corrections.  I just
dumped a towel over the case to raise the inside temperature.  Let's
see if I can make it fail.  For mission critical machines (i.e.
servers) where I pre-test the memory and CPU, I never have any
problems.  The one's I throw together, without adequate testing,
sometimes fail.  The absolute worst thing to do is buy some RAM on
eBay and plug it into a machine that hasn't been backed up.  After
trashing a few hard disks, thanks to defective RAM, I don't do that
any more.

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# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558            jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS

Joel Koltner - 16 Jul 2008 02:02 GMT
> Ummm... the local pirate radio station has been busted perhaps 3 or 4
> times in 13 years of almost continuous operation, without any visible
> effects.  Radio Free Santa Cruz:
> <http://www.freakradio.org>

Hey, it sounds a little like NPR. :-)

> I'll spare you my opinions of the FCC.

I'd probably concur.

> These daze, I use:

Thanks for the links; I'll try'em out.

Do you know if regular old OSes like Windows XP keep track of ECC memory
corrections anywhere?  I have a Dell Optiplex 380 at work here wtih ECC
memory, and I've always wondered if that extra bit has ever been neded.

---Joel
Jeff Liebermann - 16 Jul 2008 02:31 GMT
>Do you know if regular old OSes like Windows XP keep track of ECC memory
>corrections anywhere?

No.  That's a function of the BIOS and motherboard.  The OS never sees
the error or the corrections, just the data.  There are monitor
programs (Intel DMI monitor) that will track the errors reported by
the BIOS.  

Intel BIOS ECC reporting specs:
<http://www.anime.net/~goemon/linux-ecc/ecc_and_parity_bios_specs.pdf>

>I have a Dell Optiplex 380 at work here wtih ECC
>memory, and I've always wondered if that extra bit has ever been neded.

I think you mean Dell Precision Workstation 380.  
For memory info, I like to look up what's compatible at:
<http://www.18004memory.com>
Your Precision 380 is at:
<http://www.18004memory.com/result.asp?modelID=54714&mfgID=31>
It supports both ECC and Non-ECC RAM.
PC2-4200/5300 ECC/non-ECC DDR2 SDRAM DIMMs. Supports Dual Channel DDR.
Up to 8GB max.

General explanations of ECC memory (and how it's handled).
<http://www.pcguide.com/ref/ram/errECC-c.html>
<http://www.tech-faq.com/ecc-memory.shtml>

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# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558            jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS

Joel Koltner - 16 Jul 2008 02:42 GMT
> There are monitor
> programs (Intel DMI monitor) that will track the errors reported by
> the BIOS.

Thanks for the links.

> I think you mean Dell Precision Workstation 380.

Yep, I do.  I must have had an Optiplex machine somewhere else...

> It supports both ECC and Non-ECC RAM.

Our IT guy spends money like water, it seems, so the machines around here came
with ECC RAM.  I've actually never owned a PC myself that had ECC RAM.  What
are your thoughts on whether or not it's worth the money for regular old
general-purpose PCs?

It seemed that ECC RAM used to be much more expensive than non-ECC RAM,
although these days it looks like the price multiplier is <2?

---Joel
Jeff Liebermann - 16 Jul 2008 04:05 GMT
>Our IT guy spends money like water, it seems, so the machines around here came
>with ECC RAM.  I've actually never owned a PC myself that had ECC RAM.  What
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>It seemed that ECC RAM used to be much more expensive than non-ECC RAM,
>although these days it looks like the price multiplier is <2?

ECC RAM is good for about 5% performance hit.  The ECC algorithm takes
some time to perform.  If you want absolute maximum speed (i.e.
graphics, ray tracing, games, porno videos), you want NON-ECC.

For machines that get rebooted regularly, I don't think the ECC is
worth the effort.  You'll see about one single bit soft memory error
per month per gigabloat of RAM.  They're caused by cosmic rays, alpha
particles from the packaging, dynamic RAM refresh errors,  pattern
sensitivity in the RAM, and position of the moon.  Such single bit
errors are usually (cross your fingers) not a problem.  However, if
you're planning to have high uptimes, such as is common in servers,
these one bit errors tend to accumulate.  Eventually, they land in an
embarrassing memory location and your application does a crash
landing.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_error>

At this time, RAM is relatively cheap for the performance boost it
offers.  I like to stuff as much RAM into machines as affordable.  The
problem with this approach is that the errors tend to increase
linearly with the amount of memory.  I don't have a defensible formula
and tend to simply buy what the customer or I can afford.  The best I
can suggest is that for desktops, laptops, and workstations that are
rebooted often, the benefit of ECC RAM is debatable.  For high uptime
servers, ECC RAM is mandatory.  If your desktop tends to crash
randomly, with almost any random application running, look for bad
RAM.

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# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558            jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# http://802.11junk.com               jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com               AE6KS

Joel Koltner - 16 Jul 2008 17:36 GMT
Thanks for the advice, Jeff.
JosephKK - 17 Jul 2008 05:24 GMT
>>Our IT guy spends money like water, it seems, so the machines around here came
>>with ECC RAM.  I've actually never owned a PC myself that had ECC RAM.  What
>>are your thoughts on whether or not it's worth the money for regular old
>>general-purpose PCs?

Your money is much better spent on buying proven grades of DRAM.

>>It seemed that ECC RAM used to be much more expensive than non-ECC RAM,
>>although these days it looks like the price multiplier is <2?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>landing.
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_error>

Perhaps, perhaps not.  Satellite ram has interesting requirements.  It
is often required not only to correct single bit errors but often be
able to correct double bit errors.  It is not cost efficient to go
beyond that.  It much more often required to detect all but syndrome
level errors (syndrome lever errors are high multibit errors that
"fool" ECC).  Some 20 to 25 years ago i had to dig through all that
rather thoroughly so that some PhD could write a paper.  There are
some funny differences between academic level proof and engineering
level proof.

>At this time, RAM is relatively cheap for the performance boost it
>offers.  I like to stuff as much RAM into machines as affordable.  The
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>randomly, with almost any random application running, look for bad
>RAM.

Agreed.  Though the disks may be corrupt instead.  Assuming no
malware, always a chancy supposition.
JosephKK - 17 Jul 2008 04:56 GMT
>>Yep, and call up their tech support number and complain that it's "not
>>working."  Grrrr...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>they pay me to do.  For the GUM (great unwashed masses), there's the
>Geek Squad and clones that perform the same function.

My worst experience was that i had to read my comments to another
engineer before they could understand them.  The experience was
disgusting, the other engineer had a PE license.  Functional
illiteracy is rampant, as is innumeriacy.

>>Better watch out... these days the likes of Google and Microsoft with their
>>"whitespace" initiative are probably even harder on you than the FCC would be
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>trashing a few hard disks, thanks to defective RAM, I don't do that
>any more.
Jeff Liebermann - 17 Jul 2008 06:04 GMT
>My worst experience was that i had to read my comments to another
>engineer before they could understand them.  The experience was
>disgusting, the other engineer had a PE license.  Functional
>illiteracy is rampant, as is innumeriacy.

Not illiteracy.  The problem is that different people have different
ways of learning things.  Some do best if they read it from a book.
Some of today's computer addicted kids only learn when delivered via a
CRT or LCD.  Some people have to have hands on experience or it
doesn't sink in.  Others have to have it lectured to them.  Still
others get it best via videos (infotainment).  I've seen some that
will not believe anything, unless it came from someone with
substantial credentials and proven credibility.  It varies
considerably and can also change over a personal professional
lifetime.

I have customers that are quite intelligent and probably have a
correspondingly high IQ.  However they often just can't read
instructions on a computer screen.  I find myself reading the manual
or the screen to them on the phone.  Sometimes, I walk them through
what most would consider a simple ritual (such as copying digital
photos from the camera to the drive to the DVD).  I've previously
attempted to "educate" them in different ways of learning new things,
and have always failed.  My guess(tm) is that once you've developed a
preferred method of information transfer, all other atrophy into
uselessness.  

Incidentally, I've been told that about 90% of tech support questions
are answered in the documentation or web pages.  That implies the 90%
of the customer base has some form of written or on-screen learning or
communications problems.

Kinda reminds of a project manager that could only communicate via
written (or emailed) memos.  In person, he was a disaster.

Incidentally, one of the better tech writers I dealt with, had a
serious speech impediment (stuttering) and required that everything he
heard be repeated exactly once.  He never got it the first time as he
had to be deliberately paying attention.  Yet, his writings and
apparently his readings, were superior.

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