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Electronics Forum / CAD / August 2008data interchange format for board layout?
Is there a data interchange format in the circuit board layout industry comparable to DXF in the mechanical CAD world? I use Gnu PCB for my company's designs, but I'm getting into a collaborative project with another guy who uses Mentor Graphics. I want to lay out my part of the design and pass that to my client, who will add the analog parts and get the whole board fabbed. If we were collaborating on the enclosure, we could use DXF as the interchange format. Is there any comparable, common format in the world of PCB layout? > Is there a data interchange format in the circuit board layout > industry comparable to DXF in the mechanical CAD world? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is there any comparable, common format in the world of PCB layout? Nope :-( All you have is the common Gerber format for the final product.  SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. On Jul 31, 8:17 pm, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net> wrote: > Nope :-( > > All you have is the common Gerber format for the final product. Ok then. Thanks, Larry la...@gluelogix.com wrote: > Is there a data interchange format in the circuit board layout > industry comparable to DXF in the mechanical CAD world? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is there any comparable, common format in the world of PCB layout? Brad Velander gave the best explanation of this I've seen: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/f85d28a336c 67dae/7a528d64a1391bbb?q=*-*-have-equivalents-in-*-other-packages+supports+magic al.tool+doesn't+flawed+limitations-*-what-will-import-successfully+retrieve-data +*-*-*-limited-*-list-of-compatible-versions+zz-zz+qq-qq+exist news:napig.6067$IK3.4863@pd7tw1no Another good thread on this: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/b20fcdf7040 44b8b/b6849e452e463026?q=*-*-created-by-*-*-COMMITTEE+*-*-almost-the-same-effort -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*+they-all-think-*-they're-Microsoft+*-Software-companies-don't -want-you-*-*-*-to-translate-between-tools+zzz+*-nasty-cost+3rd-party-*+turf-bat tle Here's what could have (and SHOULD have) been: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/afc5007f f80f869a/591354e47bc759d4?q=*-*-*-good-one+ODF+a-standard-format+proprietary+*-b ugs-me+a.protocol+National-Bureau-*-*+magic-*+zzz+*-*-*-*-send-documents-to-*-go vernment-*-*-*-* news:dfa04c24-c375-4b71-a792-4570f91011c1@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com . . Since you're accessing Usenet thru Google Groups, haven't you noticed how usernames get borked when they're email addresses? SUBSCRIBING to the groups where you post and using a username with NO DOMAIN in it makes it look like you know what you're doing. http://groups.google.com/groups/mysubs > la...@gluelogix.com wrote: >> Is there a data interchange format in the circuit board layout [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/afc5007f f80f869a/591354e47bc759d4?q=*-*-*-good-one+ODF+a-standard-format+proprietary+*-b ugs-me+a.protocol+National-Bureau-*-*+magic-*+zzz+*-*-*-*-send-documents-to-*-go vernment-*-*-*-* > news:dfa04c24-c375-4b71-a792-4570f91011c1@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com This whole EDIF effort has miserably failed. My guess is that the EDA companies did not want it, everyone wants to cook their own soup and not tell the competition anything. Sad, actually. Without wanting to brag, in the medical device industry we did a lot better. I sent our SW manager to regular DICOM meetings. So did our competitors. That takes guts because here you have SW managers and engineers of nearly all competitors sit around a table, go to the pub together at night, chat, talk, becoming friends. This increased the risk of a valuable employee being snatched away by a competitor. But: That did not happen. Instead we now have one common standard that allows hospitals to exchange data regardless of make, type or model of a machine. _That_ is how it ought to be. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. [snip] >This whole EDIF effort has miserably failed. My guess is that the EDA >companies did not want it, everyone wants to cook their own soup and not >tell the competition anything. Sad, actually. Absolutely true. I've _never_ seen EDIF function between any two competing formats. >Without wanting to brag, in the medical device industry we did a lot >better. I sent our SW manager to regular DICOM meetings. So did our [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >hospitals to exchange data regardless of make, type or model of a >machine. _That_ is how it ought to be. Very rare :-( ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | It's what you learn, after you know it all, that counts. > [snip] >> This whole EDIF effort has miserably failed. My guess is that the EDA [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Absolutely true. I've _never_ seen EDIF function between any two > competing formats. Probably just a bunch of armchair guys meeting and blowing through travel funds. Maybe it stopped because the import of caviar into the US was banned ;-) >> Without wanting to brag, in the medical device industry we did a lot >> better. I sent our SW manager to regular DICOM meetings. So did our [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Very rare :-( Out here it's commonplace. When I busted an ankle the doc checked it out, then we went to the 'puter room and he fired up one of the PCs reserved for DICOM. Was Philips system with which I wasn't familiar but it took only seconds to realize "Hey, this operates full DICOM just like ours". Doc got stuck in the menues, so I jumped in one-handed (other hand held the crutch) and, whoopdidou, here was the x-ray of my ankle. Panned and zoomed it up to where I thought the doc wants to look and he was impressed. "Now how did you do that so fast?" This was at Kaiser Permanente, they are a lot more modern than others WRT electronic data exchange. The US in general is IMHO far behind when it comes to integration. When we visit sick folks we often see half a dozen nurses incessantly shuffling paperwork and (very few) others doing the real work. That was different in Europe. Last time I witnessed a clinical over there all the data was sucked into the big repository instantly and the doc keyed his findings right into the keyboard of our ultrasound system. Between four catheter labs they had only one (!) data entry technician. And this guy also did all the re-cablings and such. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. >> [snip] >>> This whole EDIF effort has miserably failed. My guess is that the EDA [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >travel funds. Maybe it stopped because the import of caviar into the US >was banned ;-) [snip] When was that? I brought a bunch of Russian caviar back from Germany in 1994 without a hitch coming through customs. ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Liberals are so cute. Stupid as bricks, but cute. >>> [snip] >>>> This whole EDIF effort has miserably failed. My guess is that the EDA [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > When was that? I brought a bunch of Russian caviar back from Germany > in 1994 without a hitch coming through customs. End of 2002 I think: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2193282.stm SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. >The US in general is IMHO far behind when it comes to integration. As far as I can tell, the problem is actually somewhat due to the U.S. getting "computerized" sooner than many other countries: Many small players cropped up, and it took some years before enough clinics were computerized that a strong need for data exchange arrived. At that point, of course, the wars over whose standard would be used began... with many clinics just sitting it out, waiting for the government to step in (with Medicare and the VA program) and settle the matter. When we visit sick folks we often see half a > dozen nurses incessantly shuffling paperwork and (very few) others doing the > real work. That was different in Europe. Last time I witnessed a clinical > over there all the data was sucked into the big repository instantly and the > doc keyed his findings right into the keyboard of our ultrasound system. > Between four catheter labs they had only one (!) data entry technician. And > this guy also did all the re-cablings and such. >> The US in general is IMHO far behind when it comes to integration. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > out, waiting for the government to step in (with Medicare and the VA program) > and settle the matter. Maybe they need to set their clocks to the correct decade. This has been solved many, many moons ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DICOM And why is it that when a client had an EMI issue in the Netherlands I requested images and got the DICOM files emailed across the pond by next morning while it took a whopping one month (!) to gather my medical records when I started sef-employed and needed health insurance? The only reason why they couldn't send the DICOM files immediately that evening was that any identifying patient information had to be deleted first because I did not have an NDA in place with the hospital. IMHO we have the same problem in schools. Too much money vanishes into the administration, not enough goes to where it really makes a difference (teachers). [...] SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. > Maybe they need to set their clocks to the correct decade. This has been > solved many, many moons ago There's a lot more to your medical records than just what DICOM encodes -- for starters, there's all the various procedure codes, their results, and billing arrangements that have to be recorded. That being said, it's certanily not a technical problem -- plenty of vendors have software that can make for completely paperless clinics (if that's what's desired). The problem arises as soon as they have to send those results to anyone else, and as with all border crossings, the politics ensue. In the U.S. medicare (and others, I imagine) are working on the problem, but I expect the results will be similar to the IRS and eFiling -- it'll eventually work reasonably well and become ubiquitous, but don't expect a fast timeline or even any cost savings. ---Joel >> Maybe they need to set their clocks to the correct decade. This has been >> solved many, many moons ago > > There's a lot more to your medical records than just what DICOM encodes -- for > starters, there's all the various procedure codes, their results, and billing > arrangements that have to be recorded. Well, my current hospital chain has that licked. Click, click, click ... "Ah, you had an x-ray on that same ankle back in 19-something, let's see what the doc diagnosed back then. > That being said, it's certanily not a technical problem -- plenty of vendors > have software that can make for completely paperless clinics (if that's what's > desired). The problem arises as soon as they have to send those results to > anyone else, and as with all border crossings, the politics ensue. The Dutch hospital did just that, they sent me the results. Ok, I was looking for noise but if I was a doc I could have interpreted the images 6000 miles away from them. Actually, having been in cath labs a lot I often see the medical problem on some of the DICOM images I receive. > In the U.S. medicare (and others, I imagine) are working on the problem, but I > expect the results will be similar to the IRS and eFiling -- it'll eventually > work reasonably well and become ubiquitous, but don't expect a fast timeline > or even any cost savings. They should start with what's already there. We, our competitor and lots of other companies have put a lot of effort into it and it works. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. >>la...@gluelogix.com wrote: >>>Is there a data interchange format in the circuit board layout >>>industry comparable to DXF in the mechanical CAD world? >>Here's what could have (and SHOULD have) been: >>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/afc5007f f80f869a/591354e47bc759d4?q=*-*-*-good-one+ODF+a-standard-format+proprietary+*-b ugs-me+a.protocol+National-Bureau-*-*+magic-*+zzz+*-*-*-*-send-documents-to-*-go vernment-*-*-*-* >>news:dfa04c24-c375-4b71-a792-4570f91011c1@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com >> >This whole EDIF effort has miserably failed. >My guess is that the EDA companies did not want it, That's why I suggeested in the previous thread that the gov't should have refused to play ball with corps that wouldn't concede to an OPEN standard and not grant them any contracts until they conformed. >everyone wants to cook their own soup >and not tell the competition anything. Sad, actually. > >Without wanting to brag, in the medical device industry we did >[...]DICOM[...] _That_ is how it ought to be. I saw a telecource on my PBS outlet where they took pairs of European kids and pairs of American kids and had them play a simple game: On a checkerboard, the goal was to move a button to one end of the board whereupon the player at the opposite end would get a piece of candy. The Eurokids cooperated to get it to one end then back to the other and each each walked away with a pile of sweets. The 'merkin kids fought each other to the death, each preventing the other from gaining any ground. None got a single bit of booty. It reminds me of a description of the way BillG sees business --not like NASCAR (where everybody that finishes goes home with a bit of the pot), but like a Demolition Derby where it's winner-take-all. >>> la...@gluelogix.com wrote: >>>> Is there a data interchange format in the circuit board layout [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > each preventing the other from gaining any ground. > None got a single bit of booty. Strange, that's not how kids are brought up out here. Scouting, basketball, baseball, football, you can't be successful in any of that without good teamwork. Maybe they took kids from the wrong part of town. > It reminds me of a description of the way BillG sees business > --not like NASCAR > (where everybody that finishes goes home with a bit of the pot), > but like a Demolition Derby where it's winner-take-all. Do you have any link where he actually said or wrote that? That would be pretty gross for a company that makes an operating system. Although it wouldn't actually surprise me. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. >>>> la...@gluelogix.com wrote: >>>>> Is there a data interchange format in the circuit board layout [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >pretty gross for a company that makes an operating system. Although it >wouldn't actually surprise me. Americans always come to the rescue of the Europeons. Maybe it would be better if we... see SIG... ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | When the Islamic Muslims take over Europe I will be amongst the first to join the call: "It's not our war, it's just a civil war." >>>>> la...@gluelogix.com wrote: >>>>>> Is there a data interchange format in the circuit board layout [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Americans always come to the rescue of the Europeons. Maybe it would > be better if we... see SIG... I think folks in some areas of the UK are already quite concerned. Since you have Skype in your sig, how's your experience there? Is it useful? Think it can be used for teleconferencing with docs that everyone can see? My last experience (with Webex) was, well, we turned it off right in the beginning. Did it the old-fashioned way "Now everybody scroll to section 4.1.3. ...". SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. [snip] >Since you have Skype in your sig, how's your experience there? Is it >useful? Think it can be used for teleconferencing with docs that >everyone can see? My last experience (with Webex) was, well, we turned >it off right in the beginning. Did it the old-fashioned way "Now >everybody scroll to section 4.1.3. ...". I am using Skype (voice) extensively, communicating with my Australian client. It is _infinitely_ better than land-line. Skype bandwidth is so much superior that I have no problem with the Aussie accent, while the land-line leaves me asking for a repeat of what I couldn't understand. I haven't tried the video yet, but I'd like to be able to conduct design reviews without traveling. I simply despise air travel anymore. I wish the railroads would put on some high-speed trains ala Japan... I like to travel in comfort ;-) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | American English usage has many irregularly declined nouns For example, Democrat is the pluperfect form of ignoramus > [snip] >> Since you have Skype in your sig, how's your experience there? Is it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the land-line leaves me asking for a repeat of what I couldn't > understand. Let us all know when you start using non-voice features. It would be nice if one could put a schematic onto the screen and the guys on the other side could scroll and pan around and ask questions. > I haven't tried the video yet, but I'd like to be able to conduct > design reviews without traveling. I simply despise air travel > anymore. I wish the railroads would put on some high-speed trains ala > Japan... I like to travel in comfort ;-) I don't mind air travel but it'll become very expensive and soon. High speed rail is what I thoroughly enjoyed in Europe, mostly Germany. However, it's a bit too late for us in the US. California is mulling a concept but it would be prohibitively expensive. They already can't live within budgeted means, heck, they can't even get a budget done. In industry we would have been fired for that kind of "performance". Trying to install a child gate. Looks like they didn't consider that most US homes contain drywall. This stuff is all so flimsy. Harumph, grumble ... SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. [snip] >Trying to install a child gate. Looks like they didn't consider that >most US homes contain drywall. This stuff is all so flimsy. Harumph, >grumble ... Aren't your doorways and arches backed up by at least a 2x4? (I use "SNAPTOGGLE" anchors whenever I need heavy-duty strength.) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I've finally figured out why Liberals have no sense of humor: All that mental constipation would make me cranky, too. > [snip] >> Trying to install a child gate. Looks like they didn't consider that >> most US homes contain drywall. This stuff is all so flimsy. Harumph, >> grumble ... > > Aren't your doorways and arches backed up by at least a 2x4? This is towards an open stairway. I can find a stud but the HW only takes these tiny deck screws. > (I use "SNAPTOGGLE" anchors whenever I need heavy-duty strength.) Problem is when the (steel) gate is open its weight will cause the screws to slosh around and gradually make the holes oval to the side. Wish they had used aluminum. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. >>I saw a telecource[...]where[...]European kids and[...] >American kids[...]played a simple game[...] [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >Do you have any link where he actually said or wrote that? I didn't mean to imply that. It was said *of* him--not *by* him. >That would be pretty gross >for a company that makes an operating system. I don't see any "would" about it. Their record speaks for itself: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:cNxvnO5pIdsJ:www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/ 06/microsofts_masterplan_to_screw_phone+misappropriation-of-*-*+common-*-misappr opriation+unfair.competition+cut-off-*-*-*+isn.*-t-ready+*-*-fiduciary-*+*-misre presentation+breach.of.contract+tortious.interference+knife-*-*+*-*-*-*-not-*-th eir-software+day.job+Marc.Brown+*-*-*-*-rob-*-*-its-secrets+*-*-*-*-insolvency+* -*-*-new-sweetheart http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:w100CwTtO_MJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace, _extend_and_extinguish+*-*-v-Microsoft-*-trial+and.the.Internet+Netscape+*-*-*-* -*-*-*-monopolize-a-*-category+gnu+*-not-*-*-*-*-*-*-part-of-the-standard+Java+* -*-competitors-that-do-not-*-*-support-the-*-extensions+*-*-Department-*-Justice +*-describe-Microsoft's-strategy >Although it wouldn't actually surprise me. I think anyone not in a coma sees it. That was my point. JeffM wrote: >>[...]reminds me of a description of the way BillG sees business >>--not like NASCAR >>(where everybody that finishes goes home with a bit of the pot), >>but like a Demolition Derby where it's winner-take-all. >Do you have any link where he actually said or wrote that? I found the quote. It was by ESR, the guy who wrote "The Cathedral and the Bazaar": (The quote is at the 50 percent point) http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:xvpn8VluBXIJ:www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/ha lloween1.html+MS.believes.that.putting.other.companies.out.of.business.is.not.me rely.collateral.damage+Eric.S.Raymond+*-Cathedral-*-*-*+Microsoft-and-freedom-of -choice-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > JeffM wrote: >>> [...]reminds me of a description of the way BillG sees business [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (The quote is at the 50 percent point) > http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:xvpn8VluBXIJ:www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/ha lloween1.html+MS.believes.that.putting.other.companies.out.of.business.is.not.me rely.collateral.damage+Eric.S.Raymond+*-Cathedral-*-*-*+Microsoft-and-freedom-of -choice-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Ok, thanks. I though Bill had said that himself. That would have been quite damaging, especially in view of all the court cases they lost. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |
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