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Electronics Forum / CAD / March 2008Thoughts on AutoTRAX PCB layout software?
Hi All, I am thinking of buying AutoTRAX EDA (not the DOS Protel version!). I have demo'ed virtually every low-cost schematic/layout package* out there, and they all have certain issues -- some quite major. And while I'm use to working with Protel and PADS (which have issues too!), I cannot really afford those packages myself, but I was wondering if anyone has any feelings about AutoTRAX EDA, either pro or con, for professional board design. (I don't want to buy this package and find that it FUBARD up a $2,000 test board -- and made me look like a fool too!). The only major problem I found with this incredibly fair priced software would normally be a real deal breaker, which is it actually lets you delete nets and footprints in the PCB section after you import your schematic Netlist!! And not only that, it won't say anything about your deletion when you run the DRC! But I figure that if I know about that truly bizarre issue, I can be on the lookout for it. Any thoughts on using AutoTRAX EDA for professional PCB design (so far, to me, it seems to be the best of the low-cost packages...)? Thanks! -Bill *Eagle, Easy-PC, DIPTrace, KICAD, CADint, PerformanceEDA, etc. Bill, No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused in general about EDA packages. Almost every EDA package will allow you to delete existing footprints and connections in one form or another from your PCB design. Specifically two of the ones mentioned, PADs and Protel/DXP/AD. And they will not complain during the subsequent DRC check. The check for connection and part completion is to utilize whatever ECO/check process to check against the original schematic, ensuring that all the circuit and intended connections are still there. Then the DRC checks the physical implementation of those circuit nets and footprints for PCB design issues. How can the PCB DRC check something that you have deleted?  SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > *Eagle, Easy-PC, DIPTrace, KICAD, CADint, PerformanceEDA, etc. > Bill, > No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thanks for the response Brad. Much appreciated, but I am not confused at all. Taking PADS as an example, there is no way on earth you can just hit the delete key and get rid of a footprint or net at will!! The only way you can do that is via ECO mode only. I have used quite a few versions of both Protel and PADS through the years, and unless they were all "setup" differently than your versions, I simply could not hit the delete key on accident on anything that was in the original schematic and simply get rid of it! I wonder why we have had two different experiences with these exact same PCB packages? Thanks Again, -Bill Hi Bill, Okay, maybe you are not confused at as low level as I might of suspected initially. But I have been using Protel & DXP for getting close to a decade now. I can delete anything at any time by highlighting/selecting it and hitting Delete or Shift-Delete. The only thing that will catch any error I have created thus, is a PCB update or netlist compare to the original schematic, no DRC check catches it. And there is nothing to set that allows this behavoir in Protel or DXP (now AD I can't be sure of, we haven't paid the ransom for those versions yet. But I expect little/no change in this manner.). I can guarantee you these actions for P98, P99SE and DXP versions. Can't remember his first name at the moment but if Mr. Bennet is monitoring S.E.C. at this time he could back me up on that, as he uses Protel extensively also. The last thing we do before saving a finished PCB, try running Update PCB from the schematic to make sure nothing has been accidently lost or changed since starting layout of the PCB. ( The easiest way to lose something in Protel is to forget that you had it selected, then select something you want to delete and delete them both without knowing it. You quickly get into the habit of doing "X", "A", to 'Deselect All' after almost every action, but there are still times that you may forget and delete or move things you didn't want to delete or move.) Yes you are right about the PADs, you must be in the ECO mode but then you can still delete anything and the DRC won't catch it afterward without some schematic interaction to restore the connectivity/footprint deleted. I had used PADs for a large chunk of the 90s. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. On Mar 7, 10:02 pm, "Brad Velander" <bvel...@SpamThis.com> wrote: > Bill, > No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thanks for the response Brad. Much appreciated, but I am not confused at all. Taking PADS as an example, there is no way on earth you can just hit the delete key and get rid of a footprint or net at will!! The only way you can do that is via ECO mode only. I have used quite a few versions of both Protel and PADS through the years, and unless they were all "setup" differently than your versions, I simply could not hit the delete key on accident on anything that was in the original schematic and simply get rid of it! I wonder why we have had two different experiences with these exact same PCB packages? Thanks Again, -Bill > Hi Bill, > Okay, maybe you are not confused at as low level as I might of suspected [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > in the original schematic and simply get rid of it! I wonder why we > have had two different experiences with these exact same PCB packages? Perhaps it can be set up to do that. It is possible to delete footprints and nets with the Pulsonix software I use by doing it explicitly for a particular design by altering one of the default settings. New designs default to having the setting disabled, of course. Leon > > Hi Bill, > > Okay, maybe you are not confused at as low level as I might of suspected [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > - Show quoted text - That could very well be Leon, considering I knew a layout guy eight years ago who used Protel 99 without the layout being schematically driven at all -- he used it more like a drawing package for PCBs! Best, -Bill Leon, No set-up necessary Leon, it does it straight out of the box and there is no option that controls this. Select a footprint (Shift-click, highlighted), press "Shift" "Delete", the footprint is gone along with all the underlying net connections to it (existing traces will still be there, unless they were also selected but connect to nothing). The DRC will not catch it because you have altered the PCB netlist. There is no setting that will stop it. As I mentioned the check for such an instance is to run the schematic PCB Update facility or a netlist compare on the finished PCB. It is not a bad thing except if you are undisciplined and forget to ever recheck the design against your schematic. Even the discussion of PADs has pointed out that you can also do this in PADs. So what if you have to do it through the ECO facility, it can still be done just not so accidently. After doing it even in ECO mode, no DRC check will flag it, you are back to also checking it against the original schematics. Bill, Your comment about removing a trace segment in Autotrax EDA though is definitely a weekness though. Delete a trace segment and the underlying net is lost, that is very ugly. How are you supposed to revise traces? Is there some special edit function for rerouting if you wanted to rip up a bunch of traces and start routing again? SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. > Perhaps it can be set up to do that. It is possible to delete > footprints and nets with the Pulsonix software I use by doing it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Leon > Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > "Leon" <leon...@btinternet.com> wrote in message Hi Brad, Yes, there is -- but why hitting the Delete key would rip-up the trace *and* the underlying net is a mystery to me in Autotrax EDA. As with any weirdly programmed software (as most layout programs seem to be), knowing the do's and dont's can avoid a lot of heartache. But why these programs should be written in that way in the first place has always mystified me. At least the PADS way, with their ECO safety, makes the most sense. Any other technique of modifying the underlying netlist in the layout side is idiotic, at least if one likes a fully schematically-driven piece of layout software -- which I, of course, do. Hi Leon, Yes, EasyPC is a very good looking piece of PCB software, but unfortunately with our current UK to US exchange rates, it is just too much money right now. A real shame. Best Regards, -Bill Bill, I always feel sorry for you Brits and the extortionist prices you pay for almost everything. I have worked for companies where our product sold in the UK for approx. 3X the same price it sold locally. (And we weren't charging anything different on those units. They were simple/cheap computer peripherals, $20 - $30 over here and i saw adds in the UK for approx. 30 - 45 pounds.) I just don't know how you guys live over there, on even a decent salary. On that editting in Autotrax EDA, yeah you are right, it is just silly. They shouldn't allow the delete key to delete traces in such instances. Now that said some others would be upset about that but it is a classic 6 of one or half a dozen of the other scenario. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. On Mar 8, 10:03 pm, "Brad Velander" <bvel...@SpamThis.com> wrote: Hi Brad, Yes, there is -- but why hitting the Delete key would rip-up the trace *and* the underlying net is a mystery to me in Autotrax EDA. As with any weirdly programmed software (as most layout programs seem to be), knowing the do's and dont's can avoid a lot of heartache. But why these programs should be written in that way in the first place has always mystified me. At least the PADS way, with their ECO safety, makes the most sense. Any other technique of modifying the underlying netlist in the layout side is idiotic, at least if one likes a fully schematically-driven piece of layout software -- which I, of course, do. Hi Leon, Yes, EasyPC is a very good looking piece of PCB software, but unfortunately with our current UK to US exchange rates, it is just too much money right now. A real shame. Best Regards, -Bill > Bill, > I always feel sorry for you Brits and the extortionist prices you pay [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > -Bill Hi Brad, My statement about "our current UK to US exchange rates" was too ambiguous! I am an American, but the British pound is now 2x$, which makes a lot of their products too expensive. But I agree about what the British pay for things, especially for what their salaries are. I knew many a great UK engineer who was getting paid only $80k a year, while I was getting $120K, and we were all doing the same thing and working for the same company -- and yet their housing and food was actually more than what I had to pay (not to mention their obscenely high tax rates). That's why we have such a high standard of living, I guess! Best, -Bill > > Bill, > > I always feel sorry for you Brits and the extortionist prices you pay [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > -Bill Our taxes pay for things like health care, which is free to everyone. Our poorer people are probably a lot better off than the poor in your country. Leon > On 9 Mar, 17:13, bill cullen <billcal...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Sorry Leon: You're a very nice guy, and I'm not going to start a flame war on welfare states, pro and con!! -Bill <snip> >Our taxes pay for things like health care, which is free to everyone. >Our poorer people are probably a lot better off than the poor in your >country. > >Leon Hello Leon, With all due respect, I find that awfully hard to believe. Consider the following statistics from our census bureau. This data is probably a a year or 2 old now, but I think you'll get the picture. There are 37 million persons classified as poor in America. Of that 37 million: 43% own their own homes. The average home owned by 43% has 3 bedrooms, 1 1/2 baths, a garage, and a porch or patio. Only 6% of poor households are overcrowded. More than 2/3rds of poor households have more than 2 rooms/person. The average poor person in America has more living space than the average non poor person in the major cities of Europe. 80% of poor households have air conditioning. Almost 3/4 of poor household own a car. 31% of them have 2 or more cars. 97% of poor households have color televisions. Over 1/2 have 2 or more color TVs. 78% have a VCR or DVD player. 62% have cable or satellite TV. 89% own microwave ovens. 50% have a stereo. Over 2/3 have an automatic dishwasher. All in all, I'd have to say that our poor are doing pretty well. I doubt that we or you folks in the UK have anymore than a handfull of people who know real poverty. Mike "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views." Albert Einstein (theoretical Physicist) > There are 37 million persons classified as poor in America. > Of that 37 million: > 43% own their own homes. That is a rather surprising number to me. > The average poor person in America has more living space than the > average non poor person in the major cities of Europe. This has more to do with the amount of land available in the U.S. (and how long the U.S. has been "settled" by Europeans for) than income, I think. > 80% of poor households have air conditioning. Yeah, but due to technology buying an air conditioner is cheap today. You can find small window units for well under $100 used, and I've even seen plenty of people give them away on, e.g., freecycle.com. On the other hand, if you're living in a place like Arizona *running* the air conditioner is pretty hard for the poor... although perhaps not that much worse than paying for heating in, e.g., Minnesota during winter... > Almost 3/4 of poor household own a car. > 31% of them have 2 or more cars. This too reflects a bit more about the size of the U.S. and the price of gasoline (still less than half of what most Europeans pay) than income: We don't have particularly good inter-city public transport in the U.S. and only the largest cities have anything approaching "full coverage" by busses and/or trains. Hence a car is a pretty high priority, even if you're poor... and hey, if you lose your home, it does serve as a place to live as many poor people are all too well aware. > 97% of poor households have color televisions. > Over 1/2 have 2 or more color TVs. > 78% have a VCR or DVD player. Again, due to technology all these items are pretty dirt cheap today. You can easily find, e.g., 25" color TVs for, say, $20 at garage sales as morel-well-heeled people are upgrading to huge plasma or LCD TVs. > 62% have cable or satellite TV. That one has always surprised me a bit, I guess because cable or satellite TV don't seem like particularly good value for the money if you're short on money... although it has been pointed out to me that ~$40/mo for "expanded basic" that you can plop your kids in front of and keep them out of your hair all day is a lot cheaper than childcare. > 89% own microwave ovens. > 50% have a stereo. Also dirt cheap used. > Over 2/3 have an automatic dishwasher. Probably not one they bought themselves but rather one that came with the home or apartment. (AFAIK, pretty much all new apartments in the past 20+ years have dishwashers...) > All in all, I'd have to say that our poor are doing pretty well. > I doubt that we or you folks in the UK have anymore than a > handfull of people who know real poverty. The biggest problems for the poor in the U.S. seem to be health care (completely unaffordable if you're working at close to minimum wage) and the fear that, if your car does die, you won't be able to afford to fix it or get another one and this will prevent you from working which then gets you kicked out of your home for failure to pay rent or mortgage. Childcare is another biggy if you're a single parent. (A single parent with young children who has nothing better than a high-school diploma has a *very* deep "hole" to get out of in this country!) ---Joel > The biggest problems for the poor in the U.S. seem to be health care > (completely unaffordable if you're working at close to minimum wage) You obviously haven't been near an emergency room in a while. The poor use the E/R as their health care. They come in for all reasons, and pay absolutely nothing for their care and prescriptions (given as samples). It is now hard to get emergency care at the E/R's in Maryland. -Chuck > You obviously haven't been near an emergency room in a while. The poor > use the E/R as their health care. They come in for all reasons, and pay > absolutely nothing for their care and prescriptions (given as samples). There's certainly some truth to this in some parts of the country. However, in many cases an ER won't treat you unless you really *do* have an emergency. I've been told that in many cases poor people who are finally admitted to the ER are there with problems that would have been *much* cheaper to "fix" if they'd been addressed early on. Hence you end up with the usual case of, "pay me now or pay me later," but with the later payment costing a lot more. > It is now hard to get emergency care at the E/R's in Maryland. I don't think I'd blame the poor for bad triage? Every ER I've been to (granted, not that many -- fortuntaely!) had a triage nurse who spend about one minute with you sizing you how bad off you really were, and priotized your treatment accordingly. ---Joel > I don't think I'd blame the poor for bad triage? Every ER I've been to > (granted, not that many -- fortuntaely!) had a triage nurse who spend about spend->spent > one minute with you sizing you how bad off you really were, and priotized > your sizing you->sizing up I apparently can't type well today! > > There are 37 million persons classified as poor in America. > > Of that 37 million: > > 43% own their own homes. Owning is usually cheaper than renting, or there wouldn't be so many people getting rich off rental property. You are paying the owner's mortgage payment, taxes, insurance and repairs, then paying him for the privilege. > That is a rather surprising number to me. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > 80% of poor households have air conditioning. I bought a new air conditioner for $79 five years ago. It gets used almost year round to lower the humidity. > Yeah, but due to technology buying an air conditioner is cheap today. You can > find small window units for well under $100 used, and I've even seen plenty of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Almost 3/4 of poor household own a car. How else do you get to work? > > 31% of them have 2 or more cars. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hey, if you lose your home, it does serve as a place to live as many poor > people are all too well aware. Actually, it's more efficient to have your own transportation, than to try to get other transportation. if you call a taxi, that can use over twice the gasoline, because they have to make two trips to your home. > > 97% of poor households have color televisions. A color TV is under %100. Mine is eight years old, and still working. That works out to $0.0339 per day. > > Over 1/2 have 2 or more color TVs. I've given away five working TV sets over the last couple years, and keep having TVs given to me. > > 78% have a VCR or DVD player. $29 at a lot of stores for a new VCR or DVD player. > Again, due to technology all these items are pretty dirt cheap today. You can > easily find, e.g., 25" color TVs for, say, $20 at garage sales as > morel-well-heeled people are upgrading to huge plasma or LCD TVs. > > > 62% have cable or satellite TV. senior citizen 20 channel cable service is $12.95 per month. There is no over air TV available here, without spending over $1000 for a 70 foot tower, antennas and amplifiers. that raises the property taxes, and the insurance rates as well. > That one has always surprised me a bit, I guess because cable or satellite TV > don't seem like particularly good value for the money if you're short on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > 89% own microwave ovens. I paid $2 for mine. > > 50% have a stereo. Pick them up for free at a thrift store and fix them for a couple dollars. > Also dirt cheap used. > > > Over 2/3 have an automatic dishwasher. I use Pyrex dishes in the microwave. Easy to clean with hot, soapy water. > Probably not one they bought themselves but rather one that came with the home > or apartment. (AFAIK, pretty much all new apartments in the past 20+ years [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I doubt that we or you folks in the UK have anymore than a > > handfull of people who know real poverty. I haven't met them all, but there are over 3000 homeless US Veterans living in the Ocala National Forest. These men and women live in makeshift shelters and have no income, no health care and get little or no help. > The biggest problems for the poor in the U.S. seem to be health care > (completely unaffordable if you're working at close to minimum wage) and the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ---Joel SignatureService to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida I have seen that stat list previously, highly suspect. My first suspicion is that very few homeless or down & out people fill out census forms. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. >> There are 37 million persons classified as poor in America. >> Of that 37 million: [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > ---Joel > I have seen that stat list previously, highly suspect. My first suspicion is > that very few homeless or down & out people fill out census forms. They don't have to, the census volunteers canvass the area and count them, whether they want to be counted or not. Basically, if someone in the community knew they were there, they got counted. The census canvassers were downright annoying, actually. I seem to recall that the last census used some extrapolation for the first time. There was a certain amount of controversy as to whether the constitution allowed that. -Chuck Sorry Bill, I thought that I caught somewhere in the thread that you were in the UK. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. > Hi Bill, > Okay, maybe you are not confused at as low level as I might of suspected [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Hi Brad, Thanks for the update on that. Yes, I knew I was correct about PADS needing to be in ECO mode before you could screw-up the schematic's Netlist (since I have PADS on my computer now), but I had not thought that Altium DXP (Protel) let you delete a net or a footprint by the mere act of hitting the Delete key, considering it is so schematically driven (but maybe I didn't make myself clear: AutoTRAX EDA actually deletes the underlying Net when you hit the delete key to delete a copper trace). For some reason, I never experienced that when I was using DXP (last time was some three years ago). About half of even the lowest cost PCB packages don't even permit that, and they are priced at $800 and under!! Best Regards, -Bill >Hi Brad, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >-Bill Protel/Altium will certainly let you delete track segments, or even whole tracks, without deleting the net - DRC will report the net as unrouted or partially routed. It will also let you delete components (but you can "undo" the deletion if you realize your error in time). I'm not sure what DRC will do if you delete all pins and track segments related to a net - I'd hope it would still report it as unrouted. However, I never consider a board "finished", until the program reports "no changes" when updating the board from the schematic, and there are no unexplained DRC errors remaining (occasionally, a design will have strange things that are reported as DRC errors, but that I know are what I want.) If you delete a component from the PCB, the "update from schematics" step will restore it. SignaturePeter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca Hi Peter, I was simply trying to point out that the deleting a footprint in Protel (Shift-click or Select, then Shift-Delete) will remove the footprint and it's conecting nets. Then the DRC will not report anything because the part and it's net connections are no longer in the database to be checked. There just seemed to be some skepticism that was the way it worked. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. > Protel/Altium will certainly let you delete track segments, or even > whole tracks, without deleting the net - DRC will report the net as [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > If you delete a component from the PCB, the "update from schematics" > step will restore it. > Bill, > No comments on AutoTrax EDA but it seems that you are somewhat confused [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > circuit nets and footprints for PCB design issues. > How can the PCB DRC check something that you have deleted? Cadsoft's Eagle won't let you delete a part or a trace in the layout. At least as long as you are using both layout and schematic capture, in that case you normally run both simultaneously, any circuit changes are made in schematic capture. I suppose if you only use the layout by itself you might be able to delete parts and traces but in that case you pretty well have to be able to, Robert SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com My software seems to have numerous checks. 1/ Clearance check. 2/ Continuity check. 3/ Integrity check which compares PCB and schematic. 4/ Unconnected pin checks. 5/ Single ended nets warnings. If a PCBCAD package has one or more of these missing you could end up with an expensive mess ! > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If a PCBCAD package has one or more of these missing you could end up > with an expensive mess ! Hi Marra, Your PCB layout software sounds interesting, but since you do not have any real screenshots of it on your web site (much less a limited pin demo), then most people are not going to waste even the few pounds sterling it takes to purchase PCBCAD. It may be really great software, but no-one will ever know it (except for the few people who may purchase it on Ebay). People may also be especially turned-off by (now please don't take offense) the incredibly horrid web site design you have that advertises PCBCAD. -Bill > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > (now please don't take offense) the incredibly horrid web site design > you have that advertises PCBCAD. It sure ranks right up there! http://www.ckp-railways.talktalk.net/murtonpikesystems.htm Dave. " Your PCB layout software sounds interesting, but since you do not have any real screenshots of it on your web site (much less a limited pin demo), then most people are not going to waste even the few pounds sterling it takes to purchase PCBCAD." I've occasionally thought we ought to take up a collection to buy a copy and then just pass it around from perso to person to compare (only one person using it at a time, of course -- I'm not trying to rip off Marra here). > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If a PCBCAD package has one or more of these missing you could end up > with an expensive mess ! Your software seems to be pretty good at generating a mess, judging by the schematic on your web site. Leon > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Leon I have at least 2000 buyers who dont agree ! I rarely get asked for help on the helpline so it must be intuitive and the manual holds up. Most comments are along the line of "A huge piece of software for very little money" The customer is always right ! > > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Oh, common Marra -- just put some bloody screenshots up on your web site to show people, at the very least, as to what your software *looks* like!!! If PCBCAD at least *looks* good, you'd sell ten times more product (whether it functioned well is another matter entirely -- in fact, that's why most other companies have a thing called a "demo"). For heaven's sake, you programmed an entire piece of complex software; is it so damn hard to take some clear screenshots??? And, as I said, people get REALLY turned off and worried if you cannot even put up a presentable web site; these potential customers then, quite sensibly, wonder just how your software will look, and function, if they purchase it -- no matter how low the price. Come on, this stuff I'm saying is basic -- it's not marketing rocket science!! -Bill > > > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I have updated the website and got rid of the obsolete products. There are a few shots now. > > > > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > I have updated the website and got rid of the obsolete products. > There are a few shots now. Well, at least that's a start. Those resistors are horribly BIG. Are there any real ground symbols? Scrap the 3D viewer, what point is there in having something so simplistic as that? Why support so many resist layers? I'd also suggest you get yourself a real web address. Dave. > > > > > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The resistors are big to include wattage and tolerance in the value field. Only 2 resist layers are used but a resist layer could be on any layer depending on how many layers are used. www.murtonpikesystems.co.uk > > > > > > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > The resistors are big to include wattage and tolerance in the value > field. That's why other programs don't try and put the text inside the resistor, it goes outside by default, above and below. It looks silly the way it is, really. And what if someone wants a ---/\/\/--- resistor symbol? Seriously, work on the aesthetics in all aspects of your software and it will do wonders. Ditch work on the auto router, auto placement, 3D modeling and other non-essential stuff, they are not needed for a low end package. And put a demo version up. Dave. > > > > > > > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > - Show quoted text - But anyone can change any of the components. You can move the resistor reference, value and outline to anything you want. The extras are simply to hook people into buying the software. I must admit I rarely use the autorouter although it will route tracks sperartely if you want which is useful. The 3D view does give a better representation than the 2D model. I dont understand the obsession with demo versions. The software does what it says in the ad. There are relatively few ways to add a component to a layout and wire it up. Typically the higher priced packages make it much more diffciult as they want much more info than a cheaper package. > > > > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Much better Marra. Now a person would have a definite idea as to what he is getting. But as David J. said though, you may want to just drop the 3D viewer -- it just doesn't work out. And if you ever wanted to add a copper pour, along with the ability to drop vias anywhere along that pour, your software could be a real contender against the other lower-end schematic and layout packages. Good stuff. -Bill > > > > > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The software does power planes with vias being islands. You can connect any pwerplane to any net. The 3D viewer is quite useful for viewing the final board. "The 3D viewer is quite useful for viewing the final board." What people are trying to tell you, Marra, is that your version isn't really in the same league as other commercial PCB packages that advertise a "3D viewer." (See, e.g., www.pcb-sw.com/uploaded/files/Pulsonix%20V4.5%20Update.pdf for what Pulsonix's looks like): People are used to be able to "spin" a 3D view with their mouse, "flying" in and out of it... and also have the DRC tied into the 3D (height) attributes of each part, so they can make sure nothing hits the top of their chassis (or whatever). IMO though I think your 3D viewer is fine given the price of your software... but you might find some customers thinking they're getting something rather fancier than what you have at present. ---Joel On Mar 13, 11:01 am, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote: > "The 3D viewer is quite useful for viewing the final board." > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > ---Joel I agree. But I'd go further and say simply remove the 3D viewer completely, I would not spend another second of your development time on it. It is detrimental to the look of your overall package. Stick with the basics - layout, schematic, footprints, library managment/editing, gerber generation, usability, WYSIWYG etc. Ditch the rest and concentrate development on the basics. People would rather have an *excellent* basic package than an average package that tries to do everything. Just trying to provide some constructive criticism, hope it helps. Dave. > On Mar 13, 11:01 am, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The software has been developed since around 1990 so it is a long way down the road to doing what I want. I wrote the software after trying to use other companies efforts. A lot of features I found were missing on other packages, I was also shocked at the number of crashes and holes in other packages. Before anyone asks, no it is not DOS it is .net framework v3 now. >The software has been developed since around 1990 so it is a long way >down the road to doing what I want. >I wrote the software after trying to use other companies efforts. >A lot of features I found were missing on other packages, I was also >shocked at the number of crashes and holes in other packages. >Before anyone asks, no it is not DOS it is .net framework v3 now. Hmm, did you once operate from Bradford? If so I, or rather one of our departments was one of your customers many years ago. The package was called something else though. -- On Mar 13, 12:01 am, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote: > "The 3D viewer is quite useful for viewing the final board." > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > ---Joel The software sinply extrapolates the 2D data into 3D. Clearly a resistor could be made up from polygons to create a nicer image. But things like connectors could be any shape. The 3D module has just been started on and I am sure it will develop as time goes by. > > My software seems to have numerous checks. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Leon I have had no complaints from my customers ! Maybe my telephone and email helplines are all broken lol > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Any thoughts on using AutoTRAX EDA for professional PCB design (so > far, to me, it seems to be the best of the low-cost packages...)? I've tried it and it's crap! The schematic entry isn't too bad, but PCB layout is very awkward and the software has many serious bugs. The autorouter is a joke. Have a look at the Yahoo support forum to see what sort of problems users are having with it - some of them can't even get keys so that they can run the latest upgrade. I keep an eye on the forum - the amazing workarounds that users have to employ to get round the various bugs are quite entertaining. I suppose it's schadenfreude. I've used Pulsonix for years, it is infinitely easier to use than Autotrax, and gets the job done very easily and quickly. It's a comprehensive professional package, which definitely isn't the case with Autotrax. Leon Leon > > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Thanks Leon. I had such high hopes for AutoTRAX EDA because it seemed like the best of the low cost PCB packages, but I found out that a person could not even lay down stitching vias from one groundplane to another, as well as numerous deadly bugs that would have had me ending up in the unemployment line after the PC boards came back from fab! Thanks, -Bill > > > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > -Bill A very good low-cost package that I used until Pulsonix came along is Number One Systems Easy-PC. It's about the same price as Eagle but is very much easier to use. Leon > > > > Hi All, > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > - Show quoted text - There is a copy of EasyPc on ebay at the moment. £240. >[untrimmed and unnecessary blockquoting removed] >There is a copy of [SPAM] on ebay at the moment. Know your vendor: His business philosophy: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/9e7b1c069b0 019ad/83b2dd3589ee607b?q=zz-zz+support+no.business.ethics+profit+*-*-the-ethics+ uu-uu+suckers His business ethics: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/browse_frm/thread/26252921 f675cbc4/235e04a9400c8084?q=zz-zz+qq+SPAM+PCBCAD21+Astroturfing+uu+a.real.jerk The product: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.design/msg/1f5491d886b45893?q=If. *.*.*.any.good+zz-zz+qq+pcbcad21+uu+*.better.presentation.would.help.*.*+*-hard- to-read-*-*-*-*-*-*-website-*+kk+*.*.*.ugliest.schematics.and.pcb.layouts.I've.s een.in.a.long.time Hey Leon, > I've used Pulsonix for years, it is infinitely easier to use than > Autotrax, and gets the job done very easily and quickly. It's a > comprehensive professional package, which definitely isn't the case > with Autotrax. As a Pulsonix beta tester, do you have access to Easy-PC as well? Perhaps you could write up a comparison between Easy-PC and Pulsonix one of these days? Pulsonix is of course a little spendy for most hobbyists, yet I'm quite curious (and I'm sure others are too) what all you're giving up by taking that "step down" to Easy-PC... and for that matter what you gain: From the brochue at http://www.pcb-sw.com/uploaded/files/Version%2011%20Details.pdf , the "Design Calculators" appear to be a feature that Pulsonix doesn't have. ---Joel > Hey Leon, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > athttp://www.pcb-sw.com/uploaded/files/Version%2011%20Details.pdf, the > "Design Calculators" appear to be a feature that Pulsonix doesn't have. I don't have the current version of Easy-PC, although I could have it if I wished. I think that their general policy is to keep the products as distinct as possible, with Easy-PC intended for the hobbyist and educational market and Pulsonix serving the needs of the professional PCB designer. They sometimes add features to Easy-PC first, if a new release is imminent, and then incorporate them in Pulsonix when a new release of that comes out. Pulsonix has *lots* of stuff that will probably never be in Easy-PC like paired-track routing and microwave track mitering. Leon Hi Leon, > I think that their general policy is to keep the products as distinct > as possible, with Easy-PC intended for the hobbyist and educational > market and Pulsonix serving the needs of the professional PCB > designer. The standard gameplan in the U.S. then, would be to be handing out Easy-PC to universities for free or almost free to get the students "hooked," making sure they're aware that the "professional" version of the software is Pulsonix so that's what they should be purchasing when they begin working professionally and have some capital to blow. :-) > Pulsonix has *lots* of stuff that will > probably never be in Easy-PC like paired-track routing and microwave > track mitering. Yeah, but if you're doing serious microwave work you're going to be using ADS, Microwave Office, etc. anyway and then importing the Gerber output back into Pulsonix as one complete "stamp." ---Joel > Hi Leon, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > ---Joe It's still very useful for a lot of users that don't need to get to grips with those sort of packages, and are just designing a simple circuit. Leon > > Hi Leon, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Some of these high flying packages are great and complete but when it comes to a quick and dirty small PCB a cheaper package does the job much quicker. Some people that bought my software came from other vendors and complained about packages being hard to understand and to get started took a long time. On Mar 11, 8:06 pm, Leon <leon...@btinternet.com> wrote: "Some of these high flying packages are great and complete but when it comes to a quick and dirty small PCB a cheaper package does the job much quicker." Certainly true... I saw a guy do full-fledged PCBs with all the digital bits included using Ansoft Designer... he said it was quite the pain-in-the-a.s. :-) His deal was that he was working for some government-funded project, so while they had gone through the (six month!) process to get $$$ Ansoft, he no longer had (another six months!) to get a decent schematic capture/PCB layout tool. If your tool imprts Gerbers I'm sure he would have been quite interested in your package, Marra. Hmm... (looking at your web site...) I think you get the award as the only eCAD vendor whose web site has a link to *discos.* Is that link to a friend's web site? Or you just have fond recollections of boogie nights from years past? :-) ---Joel On Mar 11, 10:43 pm, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Mar 11, 8:06 pm, Leon <leon...@btinternet.com> wrote: > "Some of these high flying packages are great and complete but when it [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > ---Joel My software imports Gerber files but just a subset. I run a disco as well as writing software. "I run a disco as well as writing software." What's the monster heatsink/toroid transformer/control circuitry in the PC case on your disco page (http://www.ckp-railways.talktalk.net/rockingdjdisco.htm)? Some sort of lighting controller? On Mar 12, 11:51 pm, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote: > "I run a disco as well as writing software." > > What's the monster heatsink/toroid transformer/control circuitry in the PC > case on your disco page > (http://www.ckp-railways.talktalk.net/rockingdjdisco.htm)? Some sort of > lighting controller? Its a disco/guitar 600 watts RMS amplifier . A disco forum wanted to see a picture of the home made amplifier. The amplifier has a microcontroller in it for detecting fault states. It disconnects the speakers via a relay if a fault condition occurrs. It also detects short circuit output MOSFETS too. . . Ya know, I teach PCB layout to first year engineering students. I would dearly LOVE to find a low end or "freebie" PCB package that they could upgrade when they graduated and went pro. As it is, I struggle along with a demo package out of an obsolete layout program that originated from a long since defunct company (actually absorbed into a bloatware company) called MicroCode Engineering. If anybody ANYWHERE can point me to an easy to learn student oriented CHEAP package that they can go pro with in a few years, I'd dearly love to hear about it. Jim (And if anybody knows where Art Hatfield and company have relocated, I'd like to hear about that too. That man was a genius in PCB program design.) > The standard gameplan in the U.S. then, would be to be handing out Easy-PC > to universities for free or almost free to get the students "hooked," > making sure they're aware that the "professional" version of the software > is Pulsonix so that's what they should be purchasing when they begin > working professionally and have some capital to blow. :-) Kicad, or gEDA. Both are free, and both are capable of doing professional work. With gEDA, you can get your first years into helping with the development, and turn it into an uber layout program. -Chuck > . > . [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> is Pulsonix so that's what they should be purchasing when they begin >> working professionally and have some capital to blow. :-) On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:05:59 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >. >. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> is Pulsonix so that's what they should be purchasing when they begin >> working professionally and have some capital to blow. :-) http://www.holophase.com/ Try talking to these people. Their full package is not all that expensive, they may have something for you. I have used an earlier version and it is pretty easy to use. , , You are kidding, right? A thousand dollars a station with 24 stations in the classroom? Sorry, no cigar. Jim Signature"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right." --Henry Ford > http://www.holophase.com/ > > Try talking to these people. Their full package is not all that > expensive, they may have something for you. I have used an earlier > version and it is pretty easy to use. On Mar 15, 5:38 pm, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <j...@rstengineering.com> wrote: > , > , [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It goes down to $250 a seat, in volume. Leon On Mar 15, 5:38 pm, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <j...@rstengineering.com> wrote: >> You are kidding, right? A thousand dollars a station with 24 stations in >> the classroom? Sorry, no cigar. > It goes down to $250 a seat, in volume. For the a point of comparison, Agilent hands ADS (normally a "high five digits" package) to universities for some "very low four digits," and Ansoft does similar for HFSS. In the ADS case, that was something like 10 licenses, whereas it was just one for HFSS. Academic software licensing is weird... >On Mar 15, 5:38 pm, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <j...@rstengineering.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Academic software licensing is weird... It is called addict them when they are young. > On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:05:59 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I just downloaded the demo and tried it. It's got a weird user interface and crashed on me after a few minutes, when I autorouted a schematic (the option was there so I thought I'd try it) and then tried to undo the changes I had made. I don't think I'll be using it instead of Pulsonix! Leon >> On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:05:59 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >Leon Yes, the user interface is different. How much per seat does Pulsonix cost? > On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:55:17 -0700 (PDT), Leon > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Starts at about $3,000, IIRC. Leon >> <leon...@btinternet.com> wrote: >> >> On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:05:59 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > >Leon OK and how much for a "typical" seat? > On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:47:31 -0700 (PDT), Leon > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I can't remember. Like most professional software you have to ask them for a quotation. They don't put prices on their web site because they vary such a lot between countries. The dollar going into free-fall doesn't help with price information, either. Leon Previously they posted it clearly on their website, it was there when I had looked one day. The fully blown unlimited version 'was' listed at approx. $8K USD a year or more ago. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. I can't remember. Like most professional software you have to ask them for a quotation. They don't put prices on their web site because they vary such a lot between countries. The dollar going into free-fall doesn't help with price information, either. Leon > Previously they posted it clearly on their website, it was there when I had > looked one day. Indeed. I've asked them about it, and they say it's gone now basically due to the U.S. dollar having dropped like a rock: They realistically can't go and, say, double the U.S. prices, but with the dollar's falling value, they're trying to discourage those outside the U.S. from buying from a U.S. vendor and effectively getting it for, say, half price. It's a little odd to suddenly be in a country that's kinda dropped into "second world" status in some ways. :-) > The fully blown unlimited version 'was' listed at approx. $8K USD a year or > more ago. Full-blown schematic/PCB (including auto-router) is US$7250 node-locked, although these days they have plenty of extra "cost" options (database connectivity, chip packaging, SPICE, etc.) that can still increase the price from there. It's US$4875 without the auto-router, which I think is potentially the better deal: If you really want a good auto-router, you might be better off applying the money saved to another standalone program, as the Pulsonix auto-router falls into the "good if not great" category, IMO. (On the other hand, Leon claims the Pulsonix auto-router is better than the very inexpensive Eagle auto-router... I'm comparing it here more to the old Protel "advanced" (gridless) auto-router, which I recall as being better than Pulsonix's and -- at the time -- cheaper. But I do mainly RF/analog stuff these days, and hence very seldom use an auto-router.) If you're in the U.S. and e-mail their rep (www.tsi-reps.com) I imagine they'll still send you the complete price sheet -- they did for me. (I won't post the full list publicly out of respect for Pulsonix's wishes...) ---Joel > > Previously they posted it clearly on their website, it was there when I had > > looked one day. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > ---Joel The Pulsonix autorouter is in fact Electra, and does a very good job. Leon Hi Leon, On 18 Mar, 18:20, "Joel Koltner" <zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com> wrote: "The Pulsonix autorouter is in fact Electra, and does a very good job." In general I suppose that's true, although I've had some rather simple boards where it does some rather brain-dead things (e.g., taking horribly circuitous routes where there's a rather obvious path that's much more direct); I even e-mailed an example to Pulsonix and asked if there was anything I could do to "smarten it up," and they responded back with an acknowledgment that, yes, it was acting a little brain-dead on my example file, but, no, they didn't know of any tweaks to help much. I never say the old Protel advanced auto-router do quite so bad. :-) |
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