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Electronics Forum / CAD / February 2008Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic designers?
Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic designers? If graduating electrical engineers wish to be considered proficient analog, mixed-signal, or RF designers using commercial tools, what are their options today? Here's what I can find so far by googling and asking of others: They start with an EE degree - then they ... - add 3-5 years on-the-job training (i.e., design, then lead 5-10 projects) - attend universities (e.g., MIT open university or UC Berkely extension) - take technical training (e.g., Besser Associates or SVTII) - build "in-house training" (e.g., hire consultants for custom classes) - follow "trade publications" (e.g., IEEE.org journals or EEdesign) - peruse "designer websites" (e.g., designers guide or analog ic design) - they ??? Given it would be nice to collect pointers on how to be a better analog, rf, or mixed-signal designer, the question is two-fold. (1) What other "options" are there for a custom-IC designer to improve their job-related skills? (2) Is there a great list of "practical" design classes, instructors, and materials available on the web that we could collect here? > (1) What other "options" are there for a custom-IC designer to improve > their job-related skills? I should clarify, I'm NOT looking for pointers on how to push buttons on tools - nor am I looking for more theoretical knowledge like that already given in countless universities - I'm looking for pragmatic design skills training to augment on-the-job training already given. That is, can you respond with a suggestion or two pointing to whatever people or material you know of that could help graduating EEs improve their job-related analog, rf, or mixed-signal DESIGN skills - outside their regular job? Where can custom-ic designers go to improve their design skills? > I'm looking for pragmatic design skills > training to augment on-the-job training already given. I know it's not what you are asking for, but I would like to ask new engineers to pay attention to their layout designers (assuming they don't do their own layout). I cannot tell you how many times I have been given a schematic, or series of schematics, that are darn near impossible to figure out. We have an on going joke about having to "break in" a new engineer, so they draw schematics properly. I've actually had one time where I was given a high speed digital datapath, but the schematics were drawn where each state was arrayed rather then one schematic for the entire path that's arrayed. In other words, I had schematics that was 20 inverters. Those 20 outputs went into another schematic, and were inputs for 20 nor gates... Seriously, I'm not making that up! >> I'm looking for pragmatic design skills >> training to augment on-the-job training already given. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > another schematic, and were inputs for 20 nor gates... Seriously, I'm not > making that up! That is what orcad and the likes does. You still have to do a lot of manual editing to get it readable. Bob > Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic > designers? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > (2) Is there a great list of "practical" design classes, instructors, > and materials available on the web that we could collect here? I actually have a problem with the word "training". To put it bluntly, my view is that if "training" to do analogue design is required, one will never be much good as an analogue designer. I can't say that I have ever had any "training" to do analogue i.c. design. The idea is that you learn and understand the basics that you were taught in university. e.g. http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html :-). That is, although there are a few bits and pieces here and there that may not be covered, the bulk is all volts and amps. The amount of new knowledge required is actually quite limited. Its applying what you should already know, e.g. cascodes, diff pairs, offset calculations, BW, stability etc, to construct circuits that matters. You analyse existing circuits, by *yourself* and figure out, by yourself, why things were done that way. If you can not figure out why something was done that way by yourself, you wont be able to design new circuits. Thats what "training" really is in my view. So, pick something to design. That is, find a full detailed spec for something, and try and design it in complete detail using Spice. That is how you learn design, by doing it. No amount of watching someone kick a ball, or telling you how to kick a about will turn you into a David Beckham. *you* need to the kick the ball.  SignatureKevin Aylward kaEXTRACT@kevinaylward.co.uk www.kevinaylward.co.uk www.anasoft.co.uk SuperSpice > > Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic > > designers? [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Kevin Aylward > kaEXTR...@kevinaylward.co.ukwww.kevinaylward.co.ukwww.anasoft.co.ukSuperSpice Berkeley's class about Analog and RF design is quite good and there're videos in the website. Have a look at them: EE142, EE140 and EE240 > I actually have a problem with the word "training". You have a problem withi the word "training" but you suggest people insure they understand the basics they were taught in university? In my book, university is just another word for (relatively broad) "training." Hence the suggestion that "if training is required, you'll never be any good as an analog designer" is absurd; you might as well state, "if you have to go to university, you'll never be any good as an analog designer." Since the quality of universities varies greatly, how well "trained" anyone is in the basics after graduating varies greatly as well. Individuals who wish to improve their skill sets should be lauded, and while I agree with you that a lot of "training" is of the "do it yourself" nature, I also think there's a lot to be said for studying under the mentorship of a good designer. ---Joel > In my book, university is just another word for (relatively broad) > "training." The OP wants to learn to apply that better. > The quality of universities varies greatly, how well "trained" anyone is > in the basics Does a university no matter what the quality, cover the same basic material? >A lot of "training" is of the "do it yourself" nature. Probably most of it. >there's a lot to be said for studying under the mentorship of a good >designer. Is that always available to an indidvidual? > ---Joel > Does a university no matter what the quality, cover the same basic material? At least in the U.S., I think it's a safe statement that the majority of engineering schools follow ABET standards and therefore do attempt to cover the same basic material. How well they actually do that varies greatly, of course. >>there's a lot to be said for studying under the mentorship of a good >>designer. > Is that always available to an indidvidual? Unfortunately, no... although it doesn't occur to many new college grads that it's really even an option. There was certainly something to be said for the old "apprenticeship" style of training. ---Joel >> I actually have a problem with the word "training". > > You have a problem withi the word "training" but you suggest people > insure they understand the basics they were taught in university? You don't get taught in uni. Someone writes a few bits and pieces on the board, and you copy it. > In my book, university is just another word for (relatively broad) > "training." Hence the suggestion that "if training is required, > you'll never be any good as an analog designer" is absurd; you might > as well state, "if you have to go to university, you'll never be any > good as an analog designer." I disagree. In my view, all the really good analogue designers, essentially, trained themselvs. In my uni days I had, maybe, a few 1 hour classes, like, this is a cascode, this is an emitter follower, out of 4 years of "training". Sure, I got Maxwell's equations, digital design and sh.t, but that was about it. I learnt detailed transistor level design simply by looking at circuits, and designing them. A "good" university e.g. Cambridge, might not even have any taught courses at all, just like doing a PhD, you teach yourself. An instructor is only there for basic guidance, not to teach you. Its er.. called being a mature student. > Since the quality of universities varies greatly, how well "trained" > anyone is in the basics after graduating varies greatly as well. > Individuals who wish to improve their skill sets should be lauded, Yes, but if you want a job done right, do it yourself. Even when I play the guitar, if I was ever "taught" a song, I would forget it. Teaching yourself and it sticks in. Get books, read and understand them. If you don't understand some bit, ask someone that might know, but don't expect that a "teacher" will be able to give you anything but the basics to get started. The point is that in actually reality, if you are not a "bod" i.e someone that learns this stuff on their own, in my view, you just wont become much good as an analogue designer. That's just my experience. Like, you could never teach me to paint. I just can't do it. Like, painters teach themselves > and while I agree with you that a lot of "training" is of the "do it > yourself" nature, I also think there's a lot to be said for studying > under the mentorship of a good designer. The problem is that that a good designer generally don't have the time. Analogue design takes way much, way too much to explain all the details that actually have to be done to make a circuit work, and actually manufacturable . SignatureKevin Aylward kaEXTRACT@kevinaylward.co.uk www.kevinaylward.co.uk Kevin -- I do agree with much of what you're said; we're not really that far apart, I think, in our beliefs. Thanks for the post... One thing I'd mention is that "learning by looking at circuits and designing them" is not as applicable today as it was in, e.g., the '70s: Circuits today are very complex to take in all at once (you can't just open up the back of a cell phone and figure much out...). Recall the discussion about... -- Whether or not even the most brilliant minds of the '60s would be able to figure out how a modern hard drive worked (not so clearcut!) -- The case where some guy's friend wanted to make a 3D computer game and so just started entering "code" such as "fire missiles at enemies" in a text editor and actually thought he was "pretty close" to making something work! If you open up electronics magazines today, the vast majority of them are centered around microcontrollers and digital stuff which arguably is much easier to understand and digest than, e.g., some fancy neutralized tube amplifier for UHF. Even if you open up a magazine and see, e.g., a guitar amplifier, in all likelihood it's using someone's all-in-one IC rather than being a discrete design, right? Kids who don't have some "guidance" -- and access to a good library! -- are definitely at a bit of a disadvantage today when it comes to learning analog design, IMO. ---Joel P.S. -- Kudos for putting up your own web pages on analog design. Ditto to folks like Jim, Joerg, and John who do similarly and/or spend a significant amount of their personal time helping others to learn. > Kevin -- I do agree with much of what you're said; we're not really > that far apart, I think, in our beliefs. Thanks for the post... Yes and thanks. > One thing I'd mention is that "learning by looking at circuits and > designing them" is not as applicable today as it was in, e.g., the > '70s: Circuits today are very complex to take in all at once (you > can't just open up the back of a cell phone and figure much out...). > Recall the discussion about... I was really restricting my reply to analogue ic design itself. The circuits are usually more manageable. I agree, that many actual products are impossible to analyse. > -- Whether or not even the most brilliant minds of the '60s would be > able to figure out how a modern hard drive worked (not so clearcut!) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and see, e.g., a guitar amplifier, in all likelihood it's using > someone's all-in-one IC rather than being a discrete design, right? Yes. Transistor level discrete design is all but extinct. SignatureKevin Aylward ka@kevinaylward.co.uk www.kevinaylward.co.uk >> Kevin -- I do agree with much of what you're said; we're not really >> that far apart, I think, in our beliefs. Thanks for the post... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Yes. Transistor level discrete design is all but extinct. Nope, it sure ain't. I make a living with it. What is quickly dwindling is the required talent pool. Because most students believe in this extinction myth they gravitate towards chip design, FPGA, embedded or software. A client had searched a full two years for an analog guy with discrete design capabilities and finally had to import one. And I am still coaching him because young grads haven't had our level of hobby exposure. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ [snip] >>>Even if you open up a magazine >>> and see, e.g., a guitar amplifier, in all likelihood it's using [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >still coaching him because young grads haven't had our level of hobby >exposure. Spread the word: If at all possible use a uP... keep us old farts working ;-) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave > [snip] >>>> Even if you open up a magazine [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Spread the word: If at all possible use a uP... keep us old farts > working ;-) Yep :-) But there will come a time when we aren't around anymore. Even among analog chip designers I can tell the difference between the old ones and newer grads. The young folks lean heavily towards building blocks and have a hard time with true device level stuff. In the discrete world it's worse, only very few young engineers who would dare to jump into transistor level at all. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> [snip] >>>>> Even if you open up a magazine [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >it's worse, only very few young engineers who would dare to jump into >transistor level at all. We need to hold on to our health as long as possible. ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave > We need to hold on to our health as long as possible. And here I thought you wouldn't have supported Hillary, Jim! << ducking to avoid getting slugged... :-) >> >> We need to hold on to our health as long as possible. > >And here I thought you wouldn't have supported Hillary, Jim! > ><< ducking to avoid getting slugged... :-) >> Sno-o-o-o-ort ;-) My health insurance coverage is presently outstanding... $156 out-of-pocket for the hip replacement. ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave >>> We need to hold on to our health as long as possible. >> And here I thought you wouldn't have supported Hillary, Jim! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > My health insurance coverage is presently outstanding... $156 > out-of-pocket for the hip replacement. Well, yeah, once you reach Medicare you are home. But the health care "system" for anyone below that age is the pits. When working for the government you get cradle-to-grave pampering, courtesy of the taxpayer (us!). When working for a large employer here in California you are ok, well, mostly. Working for a smaller one or self-employed? Then you pay through the nose if you don't have any old health record blemishes. If you do you become a pariah, IOW non-insurable. To top it off one big HMO has just sent notices to doctors enticing them to rat out patients with enough potential to rescind their coverage. It hasn't ever gotten that low before, now you have to be careful what you tell the doc or maybe self-medicate some stuff. Great. This needs to be fixed, and soon, and I sure hope all the candidates understand that this is a major concern for the average American. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >>>> We need to hold on to our health as long as possible. >>> And here I thought you wouldn't have supported Hillary, Jim! [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >sure hope all the candidates understand that this is a major concern for >the average American. I remember it well. IIRC, I was up to around $850/month with a $5K deductible prior to Medicare. Now it costs me $289.59/month for essentially zero deductible... the $156 cost was for lab tests that were repeated in less than a year... one of the drawbacks to Medicare, strange rules. ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave >>> If you open up electronics magazines today, the vast majority of >>> them are centered around microcontrollers and digital stuff which [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Nope, it sure ain't. I make a living with it. What is quickly > dwindling is the required talent pool. Because the jobs *are* dwindling. >Because most students believe > in this extinction myth they gravitate towards chip design, FPGA, > embedded or software. A client had searched a full two years for an > analog guy with discrete design capabilities and finally had to > import one. I still disagree with this, however, I did say "all but". It is not a myth. Its a % basis. One off cases are not really relevant. It is a simple fact that the number of jobs actually available for analogue designers is, essentially, non existent, despite your note here of how long it took to find an analogue guy. I truly have a lot experience on this. sh.t dude, I was laid off from TI in 2001. It is the actual facts that matter. Actually count the number of job advertisements for software, digital design and analogue design. Then try and estimate how many people actually apply for each job. In fact, try applying for them. I know as a matter of fact that typically there will be 20 applicants. Out of say, 100,000 EE jobs in the UK, I would estimate that that they are may 100 tops open for analogue positions, and ones close to where one presently lives, maybe 5 max. I will extend this post to EE' in general. There is no shortage of EEs...Its another myth perpetrated by self interest groups, to wit, employers and universities. A shortage, for example, is when there is a line 100 long outside a shop to buy one of the 5 loves of bread. What the real complaint is, is that there are no one of Einstein's standard willing to work for 3 bucks an hour. Any one who applies for a job is always, as a matter of fact, competing with 10-50 other Resumes, therefore, there can not possible be a shortage. I have a copy of the latest 2007 ETB (UK Enginerring and Technology Board) report. It notes several points. Since 5 years ago, university enrolments for EEs in the UK fell from 5000 to 2800. It notes that only 1/3 of graduating EEs go into EE fields. It notes that one of the highest graduate unempoyment disiplines is EEs at > 8%, say compared to law at < 4%. There is a comment, that "the fact that there is a cliamed shortgage," is a mystery. Ochams razor gives the simplest reason for the "mystery" of only 1/3 of EEs go into EE. There are no jobs. Its that simple. If there were, people would do them. Its a simple fact of market supply and demand. SignatureKevin Aylward ka@kevinaylward.co.uk www.kevinaylward.co.uk >>>> If you open up electronics magazines today, the vast majority of >>>> them are centered around microcontrollers and digital stuff which [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Because the jobs *are* dwindling. Maybe, and certainly in Western Europe. But not nearly as fast as the number of people with analog design skills. Else I would not get requests for help from over there. Organizations like VDE constantly lament a talent pool shortage. Now like you I believe that to be mostly baloney but in the world of discrete analog they have a point. In the other areas they could very simply fix it by not considering everyone above 45 to be obsolete. Those are the guys with the real know-how. But there will come a point where they retire. And then? >> Because most students believe >> in this extinction myth they gravitate towards chip design, FPGA, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > essentially, non existent, despite your note here of how long it took to > find an analogue guy. ... That was just one example. I can't count how often I got headhunter calls where they were literally pleading with me to consider giving up self-employment because this or that client of theirs was completely up the creek by now. Mostly because they realized that systems design is highly analog no matter how integrated it may be. That reality usually hits hardest when the guys come back from their first EMC test. Long, sad faces, analyzer plots that look like an overgrown redwood forest. > ... I truly have a lot experience on this. sh.t dude, I > was laid off from TI in 2001. It is the actual facts that matter. Actually [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > UK, I would estimate that that they are may 100 tops open for analogue > positions, and ones close to where one presently lives, maybe 5 max. I can't comment on the UK situation because I don't know it. But laying off doesn't mean the demand ain't there. Case in point: My first employer decided to shut down the whole subsidiary where I was working, laying off all engineers. So I started setting up my own office, lining up clients etc. About six hours and thirty minutes after we were all gone they had their first "Oh dang!" experience. My phone rang, at 6:30 in the morning. Tried to hire me back. Too late, sorry. And so I had my next client ... BTW, it was similar with my father. Huge company, decided to lower the average age. Reality hit them rather quickly. > I will extend this post to EE' in general. There is no shortage of EEs...Its > another myth perpetrated by self interest groups, to wit, employers and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > competing with 10-50 other Resumes, therefore, there can not possible be a > shortage. Yes, I've heard that from other European countries as well. They try to hire engineers on the cheap. Won't work, you get wjhat you pay for. > I have a copy of the latest 2007 ETB (UK Enginerring and Technology Board) > report. It notes several points. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > go into EE. There are no jobs. Its that simple. If there were, people would > do them. Its a simple fact of market supply and demand. Why don't they venture out into other countries? The one huge benefit of your EC is that you can (AFAIK) easily move to another EC member country and they cannot deny you the right to work there. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ > Why don't they venture out into other countries? The one huge benefit > of your EC is that you can (AFAIK) easily move to another EC member > country and they cannot deny you the right to work there. Well, yes. I myself have had several offers in the EU. However... I simply don't want to go there. I live here in the England. I have a life here. Personally, I am fed up moving. 10 years in the US, here in the UK otherwise. getting old. want to stay put. Its hard keeping a band going if one keeps on moving. SignatureKevin Aylward kaExtract@kevinaylward.co.uk www.kevinaylward.co.uk >> Why don't they venture out into other countries? The one huge benefit >> of your EC is that you can (AFAIK) easily move to another EC member [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >otherwise. getting old. want to stay put. Its hard keeping a band going if >one keeps on moving. Yep, Bands are always a problem. My father, who will be 90 in October, doesn't want to move from WV out here to AZ (where it's nice and warm) because he'd have to leave his hillbilly band ;-) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave Kevin, If you're like to move to southern Oregon, U.S., I suspect we'd be happy to have you and pay you what I imagine you'll find to be a perfectly reasonable salary. Be sure to bring your guitar and any plush teletubbies you might have. :-) Seriously, in some parts of the U.S. it is difficult to find anyone with the specific talents you're after -- I'm not surprised that Joerg's client had such difficulties. Which division of TI laid you off? Where were they located? What do you think of the IEEE with respect to their role in both influencing educators to create curriculums that are relevant to industry's needs as well as simply being aware of industry's technical needs in the first place? ---Joel > Kevin, > > If you're like to move to southern Oregon, U.S., I suspect we'd be happy to > have you and pay you what I imagine you'll find to be a perfectly reasonable > salary. And I might add that it's a pristine area for someone who loves the outdoors, hiking, working a large property, clean air etc. Probably not the right kind of living for city folk (the guys who trust air only when they can see it ...). > Be sure to bring your guitar and any plush teletubbies you might have. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > specific talents you're after -- I'm not surprised that Joerg's client had > such difficulties. And that was in Los Angeles. Another in the Bay Area. It's even tougher for companies in the boonies. I'll never understand why people shun nature and want to live in a big noisy city. > Which division of TI laid you off? Where were they located? > > What do you think of the IEEE with respect to their role in both influencing > educators to create curriculums that are relevant to industry's needs as well > as simply being aware of industry's technical needs in the first place? I think they should quit wasting resources on that dreaded ABET. It's not relevant to industry. What is relevant are down-to-earth practical skills. Luckily they abandoned their licensing push. I found it quite bizarre that an organization advocated increased regulatory hurdles for their dues paying constintuency instead of less like everyone else. Also, they should lean a bit more towards industry instead of academia. Did you guys get the switcher to work as expected? SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ Hi Joerg, > Did you guys get the switcher to work as expected? I'm told that the "real" (4 layer PCB) layout was completed late last week, although I haven't seen a final layout go around for engineering review yet. They were doing some last minute swaps due to parts availability, apparently. ---Joel > Did you guys get the switcher to work as expected? I've posted the first cut we got back from layout over on ABSE. It, uh, needed a few modifications, in my opinion and that of another engineer! ---Joel > Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic designers? > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > (2) Is there a great list of "practical" design classes, instructors, and > materials available on the web that we could collect here? Only this way: Build stuff. Buy parts at Digikey or other places, fire up the soldering iron, put it together, make it work. IMHO you cannot become a good analog IC designer unless you have a lot of experience with discrete circuits under the belt. Nowadays I encounter a lot of fresh grads who think that mastering SPICE and VHDL is all they need. Wrong. If someone can't solder I usually advise my clients against hiring that engineer and keep looking. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ >> Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic >> designers? If graduating electrical engineers wish to be considered [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > become a good analog IC designer unless you have a lot of experience > with discrete circuits under the belt. I probably have to agree, maybe, sort of. It was my own particular path, however, I dare say its possible in principle to become good without discrete circuit experience. What is quite important though is getting real experience with any physical hardware, even if it is only with your ic fabed ones. > Nowadays I encounter a lot of fresh grads who think that mastering > SPICE and VHDL is all they need. Wrong. If someone can't solder I > usually advise my clients against hiring that engineer and keep > looking. Although I have spent many, many, years on the bench, for the last 10 years or so, it has been entirely in the virtual cadence world. I can honestly say that I can design relatively complex analogue chips, entirely by computer, and have first pass successes. However, its hard to evaluate just how much of my prior discrete bench work contributed to this. I believe it was significant, but I just can't really say for definite. Generally, I find those that can't solder are not much use, because soldering is what bods do, and in my experience, its only the bods that end up being any good. You need to have done things on your own accord, to be good at anything, in my view. e.g your ice skaters, violinists, etc. If mum has to force you, their wasting their time. SignatureKevin Aylward ka@kevinaylward.co.uk www.kevinaylward.co.uk > You need to have done things on your own accord, to be good at anything, in > my view. e.g your ice skaters, violinists, etc. If mum has to force you, > their wasting their time. In general I agree, but I do think some people are so extraordinarily bright that they end up being very good at particular things with only, say, pecuniary interest (rather than, e.g., hobbyist interest) -- someone like Tonya Harding (clearly quite talented) perhaps might fit this category. I also imagine that someone like Gary Kasparov, even if he hadn't been playing chess all his life, could still beat most players within, say, one year of beginning to play. It's hard to overstate just how much better someone like Kasparov is at what he does best than the average Joe is. ---Joel >>> Where can EEs get "practical" classes to be better custom-ic >>> designers? If graduating electrical engineers wish to be considered [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > experience with any physical hardware, even if it is only with your ic fabed > ones. I do not think one can become good without getting the hands dirty. Only by building stuff can one gain a true appreciation about inductive coupling mechanisms, EMI, inductor saturation, ESR, datasheets cooked by marketing people, and so on. >> Nowadays I encounter a lot of fresh grads who think that mastering >> SPICE and VHDL is all they need. Wrong. If someone can't solder I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of my prior discrete bench work contributed to this. I believe it was > significant, but I just can't really say for definite. Your bench experience is what give you a dose of reality when doing SPICE. For example, a rookie who never saw a bench will not likely know why and when tantalum capacitors become spacecraft. > Generally, I find those that can't solder are not much use, because > soldering is what bods do, and in my experience, its only the bods that end > up being any good. You need to have done things on your own accord, to be > good at anything, in my view. e.g your ice skaters, violinists, etc. If mum > has to force you, their wasting their time. Exactamente. If a client asks me to interview a candidate and he or she can't solder the interview is de facto over. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ [snip] >> Generally, I find those that can't solder are not much use, because >> soldering is what bods do, and in my experience, its only the bods that end [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Exactamente. If a client asks me to interview a candidate and he or she >can't solder the interview is de facto over. I told all four of my kids, "Do whatever you want to make a living... just simply be the best." ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave |
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