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Electronics Forum / CAD / September 2007Anybody tried Advanced Circuit's "PCB Artist"?
Just curious... we have boards done at Advanced Circuits every now and again, and I'm noticing they now have their own free schematic capture/layout software -- presumably to compete with ExpressPCB. Their angle is that *after you buy your initial prototypes from Advanced Circuits*, you do get the option to generate Gerber files so that you could take your production to anyone (whereas ExpressPCB ties you into their system forever). Web link: http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46 ---Joel > Just curious... we have boards done at Advanced Circuits every now and again, > and I'm noticing they now have their own free schematic capture/layout [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Web link: http://www.4pcb.com/index.php?load=content&page_id=46 But when you want to do the slightest circuit change or re-layout you have to start over and order proto boards there again? And when you need a highly specialized base material that 4PCB doesn't offer you might have placed yourself between a rock and a hard spot. Nothing against the company, I've done several PCB fabs at Advanced and they usually did a nice job at reasonable cost. But I prefer to remain independent. After all, a software like Eagle ain't that expensive. Usually less than one of our proto runs. BTW I almost hit a snag with Advanced but caught it just in time. Back then their proto runs were "upgraded" to lead free which I absolutely positively did not want to mess with. We had to do a mini production run to get around that. However, they staff is really helpful in solving such pickles. Hey, and now they give you Outback Steak House gift cards for referrals. That's kind of cool. Not so cool for people with high cholesterol though.  SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > But when you want to do the slightest circuit change or re-layout you have > to start over and order proto boards there again? Yes, I would imagine so. > And when you need a highly specialized base material that 4PCB doesn't offer > you might have placed yourself between a rock and a hard spot. Agreed, 4PCB is great for relatively straightforward boards, but they're definitely not a high-end fab. I once called them about their then-new flex circuit capabilities, and it was clear they didn't have the foggiest notion as to what they actually could or couldn't do with them yet (but perhaps by now they do!). > Nothing against the company, I've done several PCB fabs at Advanced and they > usually did a nice job at reasonable cost. But I prefer to remain > independent. After all, a software like Eagle ain't that expensive. Ditto... Pulsonix is also quite reasonably priced IMO for what you get. > Hey, and now they give you Outback Steak House gift cards for referrals. > That's kind of cool. Not so cool for people with high cholesterol though. Maybe they'll start baking the Bloomin' Onions rather than deep-frying them? >>But when you want to do the slightest circuit change or re-layout you have >>to start over and order proto boards there again? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ditto... Pulsonix is also quite reasonably priced IMO for what you get. Eagle is $400 each for schem, layout, autorouter. Since us analog guys can't use an autorouter that's $800 for the full-blown package, less if you can live with limitations such as 4-layer. Huge downside IMHO is that they have not hierarchical sheets structure and don't seem to understand why that is a show-stopper for many potential buyers. >>Hey, and now they give you Outback Steak House gift cards for referrals. >>That's kind of cool. Not so cool for people with high cholesterol though. > > Maybe they'll start baking the Bloomin' Onions rather than deep-frying them? I avoid deep-fried stuff. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > Huge downside IMHO is that they have not hierarchical sheets > structure and don't seem to understand why that is a show-stopper > for many potential buyers. AFAIK, geda has heirarchical sheets, but I've never used them. The relevant hot topic these days is figuring out what works best for everyone wrt hierarchical refdes's and netlisting, plus slotting across blocks. >>Huge downside IMHO is that they have not hierarchical sheets >>structure and don't seem to understand why that is a show-stopper [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > everyone wrt hierarchical refdes's and netlisting, plus slotting > across blocks. Most of all it's (usually) best to stick with what you've got and accept that no system is ideal. Changing horses too often costs too much time. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com >>Huge downside IMHO is that they have not hierarchical sheets >>structure and don't seem to understand why that is a show-stopper [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > everyone wrt hierarchical refdes's and netlisting, plus slotting > across blocks. Also, gEDA only runs under Unix/Linux AFAIK. That precludes the majority of users including me. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > Also, gEDA only runs under Unix/Linux AFAIK. That precludes the > majority of users including me. Unix, Linux, MacOS, and Windows. It's not pretty under Windows, but that's mostly a packaging issue. We're hoping to get a windows-centric developer to help clean it up and package it nicely. I think it runs on Amiga too, but not the official version. >>Also, gEDA only runs under Unix/Linux AFAIK. That precludes the >>majority of users including me. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I think it runs on Amiga too, but not the official version. Thanks, it didn't say that on the gEDA web site. Maybe I should give it a shot then. The fact that Eagle doesn't allow sheet hierarchies really irks me. And it doesn't have to be pretty. I would have kept old DOS Orcad were it not for printing issues and the like. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > Thanks, it didn't say that on the gEDA web site. Because it's still not clean enough to be worth it for us to try to help users get it running :-P > Maybe I should give it a shot then. The fact that Eagle doesn't > allow sheet hierarchies really irks me. Before you commit to it, check the geda mail archives to see if the instructions for building it (probably under Cygwin) are readily available. The biggest hurdle is gathering all the other packages you'll need to build it (cygwin, gtk, guile, etc). > And it doesn't have to be pretty. I would have kept old DOS Orcad > were it not for printing issues and the like. :-) As for printing under Windows, you'll probably have to export to pdf and print that. Windows doesn't have the "all printers are postscript" meme. Like I said, we're hoping to get a Windows-centric developer to help clean up these things. DJ Delorie wrote: >>AFAIK, geda has heirarchical sheets >> >gEDA only runs under Unix/Linux AFAIK. For OS X: (I guess that's pretty much *n?x.) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/7d20f6659df a0bfd/cd4c793a2c87c434?q=I.installed.gEDA+voila+*-*-downloaded-fink+zz-zz+*.*.nu mber.of.packages.and.*.dependency.issues.*.*+*-*-*-*-fink-packages+qq+*-OS-X-*-* -*-platform . . As DJ said: :It's not pretty under Windows, but that's mostly a packaging issue. **Creating a Windoze Installer is a Thankless Job** http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Se7Yo6rriSUJ:archives.seul.org/geda/user/De c-2006/msg00113.html+are.NOT.Windows.programs+Dan.McMahill+From.Ales.Hvezda.ahve zda+Windows+2006+*-*-*-*-objection-to-*+*-*-*-*-negative-perceptions-*-*-*-*-*-* -*+point-and-click-*-installer http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:KoBxohEzWjQJ:archives.seul.org/geda/user/De c-2006/msg00064.html+jerk.behavior+compile+From.Ales.Hvezda.ahvezda+Windows+port +the.moment.they.released.a+2006+binary This is the best that currently exists in that realm: http://www.google.com/search?q=Dan+build_pcb.script+Dan+OR+McMahill+site:seul.or g&num=100 ...and folks *have* gotten gEDA working under Windows this way. http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:WTdypZlJUk4J:www.geda.seul.org/download.htm l+There.is.no.supported+Stuart.Brorson+depending.upon.your+Windows+only.works+La st.update+gEDA-is-free-*-*-*+your.*.*.expertise+theoretically.possible+*.*.yours elf+version+ahvezda+distribution.and+2007+missing.dependencies+*-*-despair+Linux > For OS X: (I guess that's pretty much *n?x.) Yes. It pretty much "just works" under OS/X due to the unix underpinnings. > **Creating a Windoze Installer is a Thankless Job** We also have a fear of opening the floodgates of clueless windows users in order to provide packages for the minority of clueful ones. It's not that we think windows users are more clueless than Linux users, it's just that there's SO MANY OF THEM that the clueless among them would overwhelm us. Nonetheless, we do keep talking about how to support Windows without losing our sanity. >>For OS X: (I guess that's pretty much *n?x.) > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Nonetheless, we do keep talking about how to support Windows without > losing our sanity. Well, then I better leave it alone for now. Got to be honest here. WRT Windows I am probably closer to the category "clueless" than I should be in order to get this up and running. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > DJ Delorie wrote: > >>AFAIK, geda has heirarchical sheets > > >gEDA only runs under Unix/Linux AFAIK. > > For OS X: (I guess that's pretty much *n?x.)http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/... In the months since I wrote that post, there have been some major improvements to gEDA. Yes, the dependency issues still exist (and the biggest issue is guile, which uses gmp library, whose developer is apparently a rabid anti-Mac person who refuses to even support other developers' patches that let gmp build on Intel OS X machines), but the latest snapshot (1.1.1) does build and runs fine in OS X (at least 10.4). BTW: http://www.rudix.org/ has a proper OS X package that contains pre- built guile and gmp so there's no need to deal with darwinports or fink. -a > Eagle is $400 each for schem, layout, autorouter. Since us analog guys can't > use an autorouter that's $800 for the full-blown package, less if you can > live with limitations such as 4-layer. That is inexpensive. I'm not sure of the exact pricing, but Pulsonix -- who does pricing based on the number of pins rather than the number of layers -- ranges from approx. US$2500 (1000 pins) to $6500 (unlimited) for schematic capture & manual routing (I believe the actually prices are a little lower than this). For the autorouter they get another $1000 to $7000 depending on pin *and* layer count. That's definitely somewhat outside of the "cheap" ballpark, but still considerably less than the likes of, e.g., an ORCAD- or PADS-based solution. I think a savvy user is typically more proficient in a well-done "suite" such as Pulsonix or Eagle than when you choose, e.g., ORCAD for schematic capture and PADS for layout and only have the lowest common denominator of a netlist to link them together. (Want to mark some traces as, e.g., 50 ohms and others as 10A power traces and others as clock signals that need to be routed in a specific order from ORCAD and get it into PADS? You're out of luck unless you buy various third-party "helper" programs such as Precience!) Speaking of which... I'd be curious to learn how many people here do use schematic attributes to guide layout? I make extensive use of them for getting layot to automatically choose the correct default trace width (e.g., "generic" signals, power signals, and controlled impedance traces), but often don't bother with the fancier stuff like routing order. > Huge downside IMHO is that they have not hierarchical sheets structure and > don't seem to understand why that is a show-stopper for many potential > buyers. Pulsonix does do hierarchical sheets pretty well. > I avoid deep-fried stuff. They should give you a discount on your life insurance policy for this. :-) ---Joel >>Eagle is $400 each for schem, layout, autorouter. Since us analog guys can't >>use an autorouter that's $800 for the full-blown package, less if you can [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ballpark, but still considerably less than the likes of, e.g., an ORCAD- or > PADS-based solution. $6500? Yikes! One of the well-trodden paths is to keep using older CAD software. AFAIR my layouter's SW is 5+ years old and just fine. It does whatever I ask of him. My old DOS Orcad served me very well for over eight years and the only reason I switched to Eagle was that it became ever harder to link printers to it. The new OrCad was way too pricey IMHO. > I think a savvy user is typically more proficient in a well-done "suite" such > as Pulsonix or Eagle than when you choose, e.g., ORCAD for schematic capture [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "generic" signals, power signals, and controlled impedance traces), but often > don't bother with the fancier stuff like routing order. Old fashioned here: I sketch it onto a paper, scan that and send it over to the layouter. >>Huge downside IMHO is that they have not hierarchical sheets structure and >>don't seem to understand why that is a show-stopper for many potential >>buyers. > > Pulsonix does do hierarchical sheets pretty well. At those prices it better ;-) >>I avoid deep-fried stuff. > > They should give you a discount on your life insurance policy for this. :-) I don't have life insurance. My life insurance policy is spelled out in the bible here on the shelf ;-) But we all have our weaknesses. Mine will be a nice ice-cold margarita tonight. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > $6500? Yikes! If you really want to tempt a heart attack, take a look at the prices of, e.g., Microwave Office, Agilent's ADS, Ansoft Designer, or similar microwave design packages. :-) I'm told that IC design/layout tools are pretty spendy as well... last I heard, full-blown HSpice was >$10k... > One of the well-trodden paths is to keep using older CAD software. All the vendors get you on the "subscription" plan whereby financially it is difficult to switch, especially once you have more than a small number of licenses. > I don't have life insurance. My life insurance policy is spelled out in the > bible here on the shelf ;-) Your wife might benefit more from some greenbacks than just a nice eulogy, though. :-) Enjoy your margarita, ---Joel >>$6500? Yikes! > > If you really want to tempt a heart attack, take a look at the prices of, > e.g., Microwave Office, Agilent's ADS, Ansoft Designer, or similar microwave > design packages. :-) And it is surprising what an RF guy can get done without them ;-) > I'm told that IC design/layout tools are pretty spendy as well... last I > heard, full-blown HSpice was >$10k... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > difficult to switch, especially once you have more than a small number of > licenses. You can get most packages sans subscription to some expensive "service plan". If not, I would not buy. >>I don't have life insurance. My life insurance policy is spelled out in the >>bible here on the shelf ;-) > > Your wife might benefit more from some greenbacks than just a nice eulogy, > though. :-) But what about me, who makes my margaritas if I'm the survivor ...? > Enjoy your margarita, Thanks, I will. But first I've got a job to do. Fire up the Weber and grill a nice steak. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > And it is surprising what an RF guy can get done without them ;-) Yeah, but when even RF power amplifier guru Steve Cripps makes extensive use of them, I figure they must be worth at least a little! > You can get most packages sans subscription to some expensive "service > plan". If not, I would not buy. Good point... at least for those >$10k packages they do usually seem to have a "lease" option. In fact, an ADS salesguy told me that realistically almost no one actually buys ADS anymore, since it starts at something like $35k and can easily be >$70k "nicely configured." > But what about me, who makes my margaritas if I'm the survivor ...? Mmmm... find yourself a nice widow? Assuming your interpretation of religion condones that? :-) If you do the math, and are willing to take the chance that you aren't going to come up craps in an accident, and if your parents were long-lived, then putting that monthly insurance premium into a half-decent mutual fund will give the surviving spouse about double what a straight life insurance policy will buy you. Life insurance is your betting the other guy you are going to die, he is betting you are going to live, you hope he wins, and you are paying for the privilege. Jim Signature"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right." --Henry Ford >>>I don't have life insurance. My life insurance policy is spelled out in >>>the bible here on the shelf ;-) > If you do the math, and are willing to take the chance that you aren't going > to come up craps in an accident, and if your parents were long-lived, then [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > betting you are going to live, you hope he wins, and you are paying for the > privilege. That pretty much sums it up. Yes, early in life I also had life insurance to protect my family and it can make perfect sense. But there comes a point where such efforts should gravitate towards retirement funding. Else there will be a major problem some time after 65. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com >whatever I ask of him. My old DOS Orcad served me very well for over >eight years and the only reason I switched to Eagle was that it became >ever harder to link printers to it. I used the Postscript plotter driver that worked nicely with a NEC Silentwriter LC890 and Laserjet 6MP. I'd expect it to work with Acrobat. regards, Gerhard The best approach is a schematic - ratsnest - pcb method. I used PCBCAD21 which I got off ebay for less than ?20. It has a wide range of tools for getting the best results. > I used ******* which I got off ebay for less than £20. You didn't also put it there, by any chance? |
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