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Electronics Forum / CAD / May 2007Oldest Grandchild Graduates from High School
Oldest Grandchild Graduates from High School.... http://analog-innovations.com/FamilyPixs/CaitlinGraduates.jpg This is the daughter of my oldest daughter who just finished the politics course in DC. We atheists know where to educate our kids ;-) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an outdoor graduation in mid-May in the Sacramento Valley tomorrow AND Friday at 4 in the afternoon. Jim > We atheists know where to educate our kids ;-) > > ...Jim Thompson On Wed, 9 May 2007 14:38:10 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an >outdoor graduation in mid-May in the Sacramento Valley tomorrow AND Friday >at 4 in the afternoon. > >Jim [snip] Can't you imagine what Yuma will be like on May 25th :-( ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave That trumps me. What you doin' in Yuma? Jim > Can't you imagine what Yuma will be like on May 25th :-( > > ...Jim Thompson On Wed, 9 May 2007 15:04:01 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >That trumps me. What you doin' in Yuma? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> ...Jim Thompson For Caitlin's graduation. ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave On Wed, 9 May 2007 14:38:10 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> ...Jim Thompson I never "graduated" from Tulane. I had no enthusiasm for standing outside in the New Orleans June heat and humidity, in a rented black robe, for a few hours while fatheads pontificated. I had an unavoidable "work obligation", which included cool drinks and air conditioning. John >On Wed, 9 May 2007 14:38:10 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" ><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >John Do you celebrate at all when y'all complete a major project at work? Best regards, Spehro Pefhany  Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com >On Wed, 9 May 2007 14:38:10 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" ><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >John I did that for my Master's at ASU ;-) I had them mail me my degree certificate. ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave >>On Wed, 9 May 2007 14:38:10 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > I had them mail me my degree certificate. You have a master's from ASU? I thought you didn't like ASU. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com [snip] >>>I never "graduated" from Tulane. I had no enthusiasm for standing >>>outside in the New Orleans June heat and humidity, in a rented black [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >You have a master's from ASU? I thought you didn't like ASU. When I came to Motorola, straight out of MIT, Motorola had a training program that included getting a Master's at ASU on company time/expense. So I went, clashed, asked, "When do you plan teaching this course on a college level", etc. Got credit for a lot of courses I didn't have to take (taught as undergraduate at MIT). The only worthwhile thing was my Master's Thesis... first BiFET OpAmp design, EVER ;-) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave > Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would > be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an > outdoor graduation in mid-May in the Sacramento Valley tomorrow AND Friday > at 4 in the afternoon. What really blows me away is the cost of all that. We just got a notice from a neighbor's daughter. I think it's called commencement notice or something. Just to obtain the cards, stationary, professional photographs and all that costs around $1000 (!) per kid and it is expected that their parents all spring for the full package. Couldn't believe it. Of course, the other extreme isn't so cool either. A few days after I had received all the required blessings for my masters degree in engineering the "ceremonial matters" consisted of a bland postcard. It read "The printout of your engineering degree has been completed. Please pick it up at the administration building room 123 between 8:00am and 5:00pm". That was it :-( SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com >> Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >> be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >pick it up at the administration building room 123 between 8:00am and >5:00pm". That was it :-( Actually I prize my postcard, "The Faculty of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Department of Electrical Engineering has recommended you for the degree of Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering", that was received a full two months before commencement. ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave >>>Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >>>be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > recommended you for the degree of Bachelor of Science in Electrical > Engineering", that was received a full two months before commencement. You still have that postcard? Wow. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com >>>>Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >>>>be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >You still have that postcard? Wow. See.... Newsgroups: alt.binaries.schematics.electronic Subject: OT: Postcard - GraduationPostCardAndASUAbsentia.jpg Message-ID: <vc3c43lblffln4u1uquk3p7n72dqf5jod4@4ax.com> I didn't remember the wording quite right, but I found the postcard inside my diploma holder. ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave >>>>>Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >>>>>be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > ...Jim Thompson Tulane gave me a little credit-card sized laminated reproduction of my diploma, for free! I can whip it out any time to impress taxi drivers and waiters. Hey, they want me to endow a scholarship, and I'd get to have some say (recommendations, to be honest) about who would get it. I'm thinking about how I would describe a kid who likes real electronics, but not just computer stuff, and definitely not robotics. One of the advantages of the deal is that I would get to know and maybe some day hire such kid. Post-Katrina, the suits at Tulane decided that the engineering school was a money loser (it didn't have brilliance or critical mass) so decided to dump it. Art History is a lot cheaper and easier to teach. Nick, the dean of engineering, was invited to be the dean of the Sciences college, and he accepted under the condition that he wouldn't be the guy who killed Tulane Engineering. So he came up with a plan: kids would take three years of sciences (physics, chemistry, or biology) at TU, then go to a real, serious engineering school and spend 2 more years there, and graduate with a dual degree. The other schools love it, because it gives them more non-doofus junior/senior students, which balances their huge freshman/sophmore washout rates. I think this is a great idea. But I am lobbying for a freshman introduction-to-electronics course, AoE for Dummies, because I think that one's electronics instincts should be installed at as young an age as possible and, face it, everything is electronic these days. John >>>>>>Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >>>>>>be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > advantages of the deal is that I would get to know and maybe some day > hire such kid. I think your best bet would be the ham radio community. That's were the "real" electronics folks came from that I hung out with. Those guys built rather complicated projects before they even graduated from high school. And with built I mean it had to work under 24/2 continuous duty contest conditions, hanging on a sputtering and spike-spewing generator. All the way from an audio compressor to a kilowatt level power amplifier. The only thing that could ever keep us from taking on a project was lack of funds, and even then we'd try to scavenge stuff at industrial junkyards. > Post-Katrina, the suits at Tulane decided that the engineering school > was a money loser (it didn't have brilliance or critical mass) so > decided to dump it. Art History is a lot cheaper and easier to teach. It filled me with sadness when I read that in the papers one moring. > Nick, the dean of engineering, was invited to be the dean of the > Sciences college, and he accepted under the condition that he wouldn't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that one's electronics instincts should be installed at as young an > age as possible and, face it, everything is electronic these days. Fully agree on that one. With one addition: There should be a Weller station for everyone and it must be used. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com >> I think this is a great idea. But I am lobbying for a freshman >> introduction-to-electronics course, AoE for Dummies, because I think [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Fully agree on that one. With one addition: There should be a Weller >station for everyone and it must be used. What a silly idea. Metcal is the Only Iron. John >>>I think this is a great idea. But I am lobbying for a freshman >>>introduction-to-electronics course, AoE for Dummies, because I think [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What a silly idea. Metcal is the Only Iron. Well, yeah, but you don't want to spoil them right away. First they must learn how to drive the old truck, then you can toss them the keys to the Corvette. He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in yet as an engineer :-) SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > >>>I think this is a great idea. But I am lobbying for a freshman > >>>introduction-to-electronics course, AoE for Dummies, because I think [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in > yet as an engineer :-) Or soldered flatpack 914 & 923 RTL ICs with a Weller 8200 100/140 Watt soldering gun without damaging them? SignatureService to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida >>>>>I think this is a great idea. But I am lobbying for a freshman >>>>>introduction-to-electronics course, AoE for Dummies, because I think [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Or soldered flatpack 914 & 923 RTL ICs with a Weller 8200 100/140 > Watt soldering gun without damaging them? Interesting coincidence that you mention that. Last week I asked a client to get a Weller 100/140 gun for their lab. Not that I like soldering guns, I actually don't. But I could not find any regular iron north of 100W and that's what you need to wire up a few big linear supplies to 10AWG and stuff. Man, that thing rips. I was impressed. Best of all: $29.96 plus tax at Lowes. Its "target illumination" feature is more of a gimmick though. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com >>>>I think this is a great idea. But I am lobbying for a freshman >>>>introduction-to-electronics course, AoE for Dummies, because I think [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in > yet as an engineer :-) I used a large train transformer some nichrome wire and a screwdriver for a soldering iron once. Does that qualify? SignatureJosephKK Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens. --Schiller >He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail >heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in >yet as an engineer :-) Total bullshit in so many ways. >>He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail >>heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in >>yet as an engineer :-) > > Total bullshit in so many ways. You are just a jealous wannabe prongie SignatureJosephKK Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens. --Schiller > He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail > heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in > yet as an engineer :-) I've been known to solder bulky items (brass connectors, etc.) with my brazing torch (a home made propane burner in 1/2" pipe, probably 10-100kBTU/hr in normal use), and use same to heat up the soldering iron to handle bulky joints (copper strap, pipe, etc.). Tim -- Deep Fryer: A very philosophical monk. Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms >> He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail >> heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >10-100kBTU/hr in normal use), and use same to heat up the soldering iron to >handle bulky joints (copper strap, pipe, etc.). Use a heat gun to evenly and relatively safely heat up the work before starting with the iron(s), and the job is a lot easier, as the gap between the baseline temp of the work, and the live action temp of the solder process on the work is far less than it would be from ambient temperatures. >>He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail >>heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 10-100kBTU/hr in normal use), and use same to heat up the soldering iron to > handle bulky joints (copper strap, pipe, etc.). 100,000BTU? Whoa! That's about 80% of what our central furnace can do when it is running at full bore. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com > He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail > heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in yet > as an engineer :-) I found the fault on a tube radio once with a screwdriver and a pair of needle nose pliers - in under 2 minutes (open WW resistor on the multiple electro). >> He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail >> heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in yet [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >needle nose pliers - in under 2 minutes (open WW resistor on the multiple >electro). --- Beginner's luck? I found the fault once, in a radio, by isolating the fault down, on the schematic, to a 10K resistor and then licking my fingers and bridging the resistor with those fingers. The radio started playing, I replaced the resistor and, AFAIK, it's still out there working like it's supposed to. SignatureJF >>>He who has not repaired a piece of electronic equipment using a nail >>>heated over the barbeque coals for a solder iron ain't quite broken in yet [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > playing, I replaced the resistor and, AFAIK, it's still out there > working like it's supposed to. A friend of mine used to do that. Then one day the doc diagnosed some heart rhythm problems ... Tube radios are of remarkable robustness. The old Astor BPJ here in the office has lived in three continents now, is about 50 years old and all it needed was a new IF tube. Plus a wee bias modification because I was unable to find the exact same match and had to "Germanize" that stage. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com >>> I think this is a great idea. But I am lobbying for a freshman >>> introduction-to-electronics course, AoE for Dummies, because I think [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >John For a business lab, sure. For home personal lab use, Edsyn is the best value, with the widest variety of inexpensive tips, and having the longest expected life span. Metcals are nice in the business lab setting because they fire up in seconds flat. They have $50 tips though, and even in a business setting, they are not for everyone. Edsyn is the best all around Soldering Iron one can buy. >>>>>>Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >>>>>>be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >John A guy I know got a (small-- 14,000 ft^2) building named after him. Only cost him $8M, IIRC, but that was a few years ago. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com >>>>>>>Who I hope to meet some day is the 15th century clown that thought it would >>>>>>>be a good idea to dress faculty in black robes and a black hat for an [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >A guy I know got a (small-- 14,000 ft^2) building named after him. >Only cost him $8M, IIRC, but that was a few years ago. $20K is the minimum to endow a scholarship, which would only be $1K per year to a student, but in theory it's forever. Maybe they could name a drinking fountain after me. John >$20K is the minimum to endow a scholarship, which would only be $1K >per year to a student, but in theory it's forever. Maybe they could >name a drinking fountain after me. > >John Did they have those birdbath things for washing hands at Tulane? I've always wanted a parkette named after me. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com John ... See http://da1.sierracollege.edu/classschedule/schedules.aspx Discipline: Computer Integrated Electronics Course: CIE-001 I just finished my first semester teaching it after writing the curriculum over last summer. Out of twenty students, I've got about five or six that are going to transfer into the CIE program on the basis of taking that class. It can be done. Jim > I think this is a great idea. But I am lobbying for a freshman > introduction-to-electronics course, AoE for Dummies, because I think > that one's electronics instincts should be installed at as young an > age as possible and, face it, everything is electronic these days. On Sat, 12 May 2007 14:38:00 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >John ... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Jim No, no, no. Not computer electronics. I had in mind only using and understanding a few parts: resistors, diodes, transistors, capacitors, inductors, and maybe opamps. And no Spicing allowed. John Jesus, John, did you bother going to the site to see what we are teaching these kids? Nobody said a GODDAMNED word about "computer electronics". Computer INTEGRATED Electronics, which means that we integrate the computer into the syllabus to teach the kids how to do the hand calculations of Xc and Xl but then show them how Excel can make it a bunch faster ... that laying out PC boards by hand can be oh-so-much-fun with tape and donuts (and who teaches THAT any more?) but that a schematic capture program later in our syllabus along with a linked pcb layout program is so much faster. Before you say no, no, no, GO TO THE SITE to see what we are teaching these kids. We've got one of the preeminent "mechatronix" programs in this country ... teaching kids how to fix soda pop machines, ski lift mechanisms, slot machines, and all the rest of the stuff that requires analog, digital, and mechanical skills all wrapped up in one human package. Some of them go on to engineering careers. Some stop at fixing blackjack machines. I graduated a kid yesterday that was hired first shot out of the box next Monday to work on deep sea exploring equipment ... at $50k a year, which ain't bad for a 2 year college graduate that couldn't wipe his nose when he entered the program a couple of years ago. Read before you criticize. Jim > No, no, no. Not computer electronics. I had in mind only using and > understanding a few parts: resistors, diodes, transistors, capacitors, > inductors, and maybe opamps. And no Spicing allowed. > > John > Jesus, John, did you bother going to the site to see what we are teaching > these kids? I looked, but your URL was the main page and it needs javascript or such for navigation. SignatureThese are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. OK, then go to www.sierracollege.edu, then to Schedule of Classes, then Computer Integrated Electronics, then to CIE 001 Or browse the catalog from the edu page. Jim >> Jesus, John, did you bother going to the site to see what we are teaching >> these kids? > > I looked, but your URL was the main page and it needs javascript or such > for navigation. On Sat, 12 May 2007 17:25:26 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >OK, then go to www.sierracollege.edu, then to Schedule of Classes, then >Computer Integrated Electronics, then to CIE 001 > >Or browse the catalog from the edu page. > >Jim That's a survey course. I'd like to teach a serious electronics course that covers a small number of concepts and uses just a few components, so the students learn to feel the way the parts work and can do the basic math to back it up. All those subjects can't be approached in any depth in years, much less a semister. John I guess I fail to see the usefulness of such a course as you describe. You said that you wanted to teach a freshman class some basic concepts, or at least that's what you said when we started this thread. Now you say you want to teach a limited component class in some depth. You can't, as you noted, have it both ways and certainly not in a semester. THe same website; the 10 class teaches passive components and some limited semiconductors. THe 20 class does a fair job on opamps and digital devices through LSI. We don't teach at the university level. Indeed that is not our charter. Could we? Sure. But what's the point? The kids that are going to go on to EE will get that depth and the kids that are going to fix slot machines at the Indian casinos have just enough knowledge to do their job properly. Jim > That's a survey course. I'd like to teach a serious electronics course > that covers a small number of concepts and uses just a few components, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >I guess I fail to see the usefulness of such a course as you describe. You >said that you wanted to teach a freshman class some basic concepts, or at >least that's what you said when we started this thread. Now you say you >want to teach a limited component class in some depth. You can't, as you >noted, have it both ways and certainly not in a semester. What I think they ought to know is circuit concepts: voltage, current, resonance, exponentials, feedback, transistor action, and basic opamp functions... amplification, integration, gbw limits, things like that. A week of "signals and systems" would be great too. These are bright kids starting on a 5-year university degree but will spend the first three years on sciences and then take 2 years of engineering. The math is second nature to them, but they will absorb both a lot better if they have some good instincts installed from day one. I learned a lot more than other, smarter classmates because I'd been an electronics hobbyist as a kid. When a professor drew a diagram or an equation on the board, it clicked for me: so *that's* why that works! My classmates kept their heads down and took notes about equations, not realizing the gems they were missing. I am talking about a different scenario here. John >On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" ><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >John Same here. My years haunting my father's TV repair shop are every bit as important as everything I learned at MIT. Electronics is second nature to me now... but it's a pox... take a look at a client's circuit and spout "crap" without thinking ;-) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave A pox learned very quickly in academia. One does not tell the professor that (s)he put the diode in backwards or after becoming a junior professor to openly comment that the class project design is a pile of doggiepoo without first finding out which senior faculty member designed it. {;-) Jim > Electronics is second nature to me now... but it's a pox... take a > look at a client's circuit and spout "crap" without thinking ;-) > > ...Jim Thompson >A pox learned very quickly in academia. One does not tell the professor that >(s)he put the diode in backwards or after becoming a junior professor to >openly comment that the class project design is a pile of doggiepoo without >first finding out which senior faculty member designed it. Sure one does. I managed to stump the department head on the equation for GBW in an op-amp circuit (I didn't know what the correct answer was, but I was able to demonstrate that the "solution" up on the board was incorrect and the department head agreed but also didn't know where to go from there :-) ). A better story is the one I've posted previously about a co-worker who took a control systems lab and, after being unable to get the lab to achieve some specified settling time was able to demonstrate that doing so was impossible given the bandwidth limitations of the the power amplifier and op-amps provided. Since he'd just demonstrated that hundreds of kids had dry-labed the experiment, his story goes that the next day a half-dozen department professors were in the lab trying to get it to work, and they concluded the same thing my co-worker had: It couldn't be done with the equipment provided. The lab itself had been constructed by some former grad. student! Jim has his story about demonstrating that someone had minimized an op-amp's sensitivity with respect to one variable while making the rest atrocious, which is the kind of thing you'd only see in academia. I'm sure he has plenty more too... I was 9 units into a MSEE program at Sac State when I had the department chair try and convince me that his microstrip circuit on alumina 1/4 inch thick would work. Get alumina more than 10 or 20 mils thick at 10 GHz. or so and I don't care HOW much you wish it would work, it ain't gonna. Haven't been back since. Jim > Jim has his story about demonstrating that someone had minimized an > op-amp's sensitivity with respect to one variable while making the rest > atrocious, which is the kind of thing you'd only see in academia. I'm > sure he has plenty more too... >>On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Same here. My years haunting my father's TV repair shop are every bit >as important as everything I learned at MIT. It was my uncle's TV repair shop where I learned about electronics. I learned how to solder when I was three. Where are the good EEs going to come from, now that most of the TV repair shops are gone? >Electronics is second nature to me now... but it's a pox... take a >look at a client's circuit and spout "crap" without thinking ;-) Yeah, you've got to be diplomatic and leave them some shread of self-respect. Or they'll bad-mouth you to the bosses after you're gone. John >>>On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >>><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >It was my uncle's TV repair shop where I learned about electronics. I >learned how to solder when I was three. Yet never learned how to clean them properly. >Where are the good EEs going to come from, now that most of the TV >repair shops are gone? They are called factory authorized service locations, and they are still around. Just a lot less HV is involved now. A lot less magnetics too, since LCD and plasma displays don't require deflection coils. >>Electronics is second nature to me now... but it's a pox... take a >>look at a client's circuit and spout "crap" without thinking ;-) > >Yeah, you've got to be diplomatic and leave them some shread of >self-respect. Is that what you call what you do? > Or they'll bad-mouth you to the bosses after you're >gone. Hahahaha... You're funny, Johnny. >>On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > ...Jim Thompson You guys (you and John) expect a short course to replace the years you spent as a hobbyiest picking up stuff? The years of gradually picking up the stuff (instead of the speed that happens in a course) plus the motivation you already had aren't going to be instilled by such a course. Of course a class like that would really help the kids that have already picked up a bunch on their own. Robert >>>On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >>><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >You guys (you and John) expect a short course to replace the years you spent >as a hobbyiest picking up stuff? No, but a really good kick-start should be possible, at least for the guys (it usually is guys) who have the instincts to be a good EE. I know some dynamite circuit designers who started in college, with no previous experience. I just think that, in a situation like Tulane is planning, they ought to get some basic electronics asap. John >>>>On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >>>><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > John How to "kick start" students is something I desperately searched for when I taught Electronics for two years. And it certainly seemed many (not all) of my colleagues did as well. But mostly I was riding that curve Chuck mentioned, 5 hours prep (mostly wasted) the night before for a 1 hour lecture, then 3, then... Besides the "fad of the moment" in Teaching I didn't see a lot I could use to do the kick starting you're talking about. What I could do was be a resource to the ones who were kick starting themselves. I pointed quite a few towards resources like Win's Book. Some of them were even grateful. Robert >You guys (you and John) expect a short course to replace the years you spent >as a hobbyiest picking up stuff? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Robert Your email should be robertISaYahoo! http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/index.htm > On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" > <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > works! My classmates kept their heads down and took notes about > equations, not realizing the gems they were missing. I did the same thing. I was a ham in high school, and was designing TTL based CPU's on my own... all the while wishing I could afford the parts to actually build one (early 1970s)... So by the time I got to college, I was quite well versed in electronics... though not so well versed in theory. One of the most jarring memories of my early EE courses was before class one day in the first or second circuits course; there was a fairly complicated circuit diagram on the blackboard, left over from some other more advanced course, and one of my fellow students, on seeing it, piped up, "I sure hope we don't have to do anything like that!" And thoroughly flabbergasted by the remark, I said, "I sure hope we do!" ... which got a kind of negative reaction from many of my other classmates. To which I replied, "What did you think we would be doing as EE's?" It really does help to have a firm grounding in electronics before you start an EE program... But, more important, I think is a insatiable interest in electronics. It truly baffled me to see the number of students that were enrolled in the EE program who didn't like electronics. To them it was just training for a high paying career. -Chuck What you describe is what we call CIE-20 and it is taught in the second semester of the freshman year. Signals and systems is what the campus ham radio club is for. Jim > On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" > <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > functions... amplification, integration, gbw limits, things like that. > A week of "signals and systems" would be great too. ...and I teach it half out of Win's book and half out of my lecture notes... Jim > What you describe is what we call CIE-20 and it is taught in the second > semester of the freshman year. On Sun, 13 May 2007 12:29:04 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >What you describe is what we call CIE-20 and it is taught in the second >semester of the freshman year. But the Tulane program will have the kids doing sciences for the first three years. I just think they should learn some basic electronics up-front. >Signals and systems is what the campus ham radio club is for. Do they cover stuff like mixing, correlation, convolution, filtering, impulse response, FIR filters? And does your "club" statement imply that the official courses *don't* cover these issues? John > On Sun, 13 May 2007 12:29:04 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" > <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > three years. I just think they should learn some basic electronics > up-front. If the second semester of the freshman year isn't up-front, what is it? >>Signals and systems is what the campus ham radio club is for. > > Do they cover stuff like mixing, correlation, convolution, filtering, > impulse response, FIR filters? Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Propagation, antennas, six hundred mile an hour tape, fixing it with bubble gum and baling wire. Mixers if somebody decides to homebrew one. > And does your "club" statement imply that the official courses *don't* > cover these issues? That is correct. I've got the kids majoring in electronics for four classes. Basic chassis and pcb fabrication (tinbending and pcb etching), passive circuits, opamps & SSI-MSI-LSI digital, advanced analog project fabrication. After me they split into either microprocessor work or mechatronic (hydraulics, pneumatics, numerical control) work. I'm the only analog cat that they see. Jim > John >On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" ><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >John Have you even looked at the NEETS course? It goes from basic electronics through some pretty advanced materials, and it is segmented perfectly. http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/index.htm >>On Sun, 13 May 2007 10:29:47 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/index.htm I just checked the site, looks technician grade to me. SignatureJosephKK Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens. --Schiller > We don't teach at the university level. Indeed that is not our charter. > Could we? Sure. But what's the point? I've always thought that leaving out phasors in 2-year programs is something of a disservice to students: All the machinations you have to go through to do use R/L/C's without introducing 'j' seems a lot worse than spending the week or so on, "Remember that sqrt(-1) thing you learned in high school? Here's an actual application for it! Yes, it's somewhat abstract and seemingly magical at first, but you'll like it, trust me! And you'll find your contemporary calculator is perfectly happy to operate using these things..." Not that it belongs in a 2-year program, but phasors also serve as a very nice "backdrop" to Laplace transforms... they're a lot less nebulous when you can tell kids, "Hey, you've been using a somewhat distilled version of this for a year or two now..." >That's a survey course. I'd like to teach a serious electronics course >that covers a small number of concepts and uses just a few components, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >John NEETS is all you need. > On Sat, 12 May 2007 14:38:00 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" > <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > understanding a few parts: resistors, diodes, transistors, capacitors, > inductors, and maybe opamps. And no Spicing allowed. Plus step-recovery diodes in your case, I guess. But I think Jim is teaching the more hands-on stuff you are looking for, not just theory. Even fiber-optics which today surprisingly few people know. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com >> On Sat, 12 May 2007 14:38:00 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >> <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >But I think Jim is teaching the more hands-on stuff you are looking for, >not just theory. Even fiber-optics which today surprisingly few people know. That's nuts. It is so entrenched in mil communications that nearly everyone in such jobs knows, even the programmers... especially the programmers, since they don't have time to wait around for a tech or assembler to hook them up. Aside from the fact that it is VERY easy to learn and know. >>>On Sat, 12 May 2007 14:38:00 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" >>><jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Aside from the fact that it is VERY easy to learn and know. Repair, yes, but design is another matter. I was a bit surprised how often I had to explain why, for example, there is a cascode transistor in front of the TIA. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com On Sat, 12 May 2007 14:38:00 -0700, the renowned "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >John ... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Jim Jim, do you have any training (formal or otherwise) in teaching? Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Well, lessee ... Took the necessary classes in fundamentals of instruction to pass the flight instructor certificate back in '71. Took a couple of "how to teach" classes in the great electronics recession of '75 when it looked like becoming a high school teacher was the way to a stable employment career. Quit when they got so goddamned boring that I wanted to puke before every class. As to "otherwise" ... Started teaching aircraft maintenance in the community college system back in '75. Was mentored by a couple of wonderful professors who led me down the path of learning being an enjoyable experience for the students. Switched to teaching aircraft ground school piloting in '78. Still have the enviable record of any student finishing my class passing the FAA written pilot examination 100%. Switched to teaching community college electronics in 1980 and have been there ever since. Over the last 27 years perhaps 75 or 100 mini-classes (1-2 day) on leading edge teaching philosophy ... took half, taught the other half. Out of a thousand teachers at my college, been teacher of the year, vp of the faculty, and all the rest of that stuff. Just for curiousity, why do you ask? Jim > Jim, do you have any training (formal or otherwise) in teaching? On Sat, 12 May 2007 17:21:37 -0700, the renowned "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >Well, lessee ... > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Jim Because I'm dickering around with some teaching of a similar nature, and looking for pointers or whatever else could be helpful. I escorted a bunch of Grade 12 students around a trade show a week or two ago and found them a bit hard to manage (attention span of a gnat, etc.). These guys/gals will be older, and more motivated, but still.. >> Jim, do you have any training (formal or otherwise) in teaching? Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com Do it without a second thought. The first couple of classes will be a real bitchkitty; you will spend five hours preparing for every hour in the classroom. The next time it will be three hours. Then an hour. Then ten minutes to print out the class notes with the current year's heading on the paper. The first time one of your kids comes in beaming to show you his or her first pay stub with a dollar figure more than you are making teaching, all of a sudden it becomes worthwhile. On the other hand, you will go through the first day of class normal routine of asking, "why are you taking this class" and some kid will answer, "because my dad took it when he was young and said that he liked the class." I never in my life felt so old. If I stay at it another ten years, I'm sure somebody will mention their grandfather. Teach the theory, of course, but candycoat it, at least in the basic classes. It's fine to do a little bit of "primary cells" and "silicon nitride" for a few minutes, but building an LED flashlight from coin cells and a white LED that hangs on their keychain is what they will remember. Jim > Because I'm dickering around with some teaching of a similar nature, > and looking for pointers or whatever else could be helpful. I escorted > a bunch of Grade 12 students around a trade show a week or two ago and > found them a bit hard to manage (attention span of a gnat, etc.). > These guys/gals will be older, and more motivated, but still.. On Sun, 13 May 2007 08:03:20 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >Do it without a second thought. STOP top posting without a second thought, dipshit. You learn, use and follow conventions when flying an aircraft... Learn the conventions of Usenet and follow them as well. Do it without a second thought. > On Sun, 13 May 2007 08:03:20 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" > <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Do it without a second thought. As if you should talk prongie. SignatureJosephKK Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens. --Schiller On Sat, 12 May 2007 17:21:37 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >Well, lessee ... > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >> Jim, do you have any training (formal or otherwise) in teaching? That looks like a little horse track or car race track just to the south east of that airstrip. Coordinates would allow for a google earth visit. I have no idea what airstrip you are referring to. If you are talking about Grass Valley Intentional Airpatch (KGOO) then 39-13-26.5000N / 121-00-11.1000W 39-13.441667N / 121-00.185000W 39.2240278 / -121.0030833 The Loma Rica horse training ring borders the airport to the north and west, not the south and east. Jim > That looks like a little horse track or car race track just to the > south east of that airstrip. > > Coordinates would allow for a google earth visit. On Sun, 13 May 2007 08:13:05 -0700, "RST Engineering \(jw\)" <jim@rstengineering.com> wrote: >I have no idea what airstrip you are referring to. If you are talking about >Grass Valley Intentional Airpatch (KGOO) then [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The Loma Rica horse training ring borders the airport to the north and west, >not the south and east. Not according to the magnetic north indicator you placed on the image. The track I see there is BELOW the strip, with reference to that compass, and off the east end of the strip, with reference to that compass. So, either your image edit is wrong, or you are wrong. > Hey, they want me to endow a scholarship, and I'd get to have some say > (recommendations, to be honest) about who would get it. I'm thinking > about how I would describe a kid who likes real electronics, but not > just computer stuff, and definitely not robotics. What do you have against robotics? Just that a lot of people into them are primarily slapping together hardware using off-the-shelf RC components and controllers and not actually doing electronics design? Or something else? I attended the OSU engineering expo last Friday. Lots of interesting stuff... and they're pushing "TekBots" (guess who sponsors it) in a big way these days... >> Hey, they want me to endow a scholarship, and I'd get to have some say >> (recommendations, to be honest) about who would get it. I'm thinking [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >primarily slapping together hardware using off-the-shelf RC components and >controllers and not actually doing electronics design? Yes, that. >Or something else? The fact that robotics is useless and mostly qualitative. John >>> Hey, they want me to endow a scholarship, and I'd get to have some say >>> (recommendations, to be honest) about who would get it. I'm thinking [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The fact that robotics is useless and mostly qualitative. Wow John, you sure are a man with a bunch of mostly useless, and strongly held opinions. I'd bet that your car's price was cut about in half because of the use of robotics. I am certain that the GI's in Iraq appreciate not having to get close and personal with suspicious bomb like packages thanks to robotics. The Mars rovers seems to be doing a pretty good job of exploring the surface of Mars, thanks to robotics. Yep, useless! -Chuck >>>> Hey, they want me to endow a scholarship, and I'd get to have some say >>>> (recommendations, to be honest) about who would get it. I'm thinking [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Wow John, you sure are a man with a bunch of mostly useless, >and strongly held opinions. Not useless. I design stuff that works. What do you do? >I'd bet that your car's price was cut about in half because >of the use of robotics. And the savings were spent on its doing all sorts of annoying stuff I never wanted it to do. That the dealer can't turn off. >I am certain that the GI's in Iraq appreciate not having to >get close and personal with suspicious bomb like packages >thanks to robotics. Is much of that stuff actually deployed? Five more died today. >The Mars rovers seems to be doing a pretty good job of exploring >the surface of Mars, thanks to robotics. The stuff all these kids are doing is far less productive. John >>>>> Hey, they want me to endow a scholarship, and I'd get to have some say >>>>> (recommendations, to be honest) about who would get it. I'm thinking [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Not useless. I design stuff that works. What do you do? I design stuff that works. I have been running my own consulting company for the last 26 years. You don't hold a monopoly on productive work. You do, however, seem to hold a monopoly on poorly thought out, strongly held opinions. >> I'd bet that your car's price was cut about in half because >> of the use of robotics. > > And the savings were spent on its doing all sorts of annoying stuff I > never wanted it to do. That the dealer can't turn off. Well, that is because your car was designed to please the most people in its market, not just you. If it really bothers you that your car does things you don't want it to do, commission a custom made car. You don't expect an off-the-rack suit to fit you perfectly, do you? >> I am certain that the GI's in Iraq appreciate not having to >> get close and personal with suspicious bomb like packages >> thanks to robotics. > > Is much of that stuff actually deployed? Five more died today. Yes, literally tons of it are deployed, and saving lives too. It doesn't do a thing against Iranian made armor piercing shaped charges planted in trucks, driven by suicidal drivers, or strapped to suicide bombers.. which is what is doing most of the killing right now. >> The Mars rovers seems to be doing a pretty good job of exploring >> the surface of Mars, thanks to robotics. > > The stuff all these kids are doing is far less productive. I bet you never "noodled about" with electronics as a kid. They are making an education out of something they find interesting. Why do you think that is a bad thing? -Chuck >>>>>> Hey, they want me to endow a scholarship, and I'd get to have some say >>>>>> (recommendations, to be honest) about who would get it. I'm thinking [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >monopoly on productive work. You do, however, seem to hold >a monopoly on poorly thought out, strongly held opinions. This is a discussion group. What do you want to do, say how nice the weather is every post? >>> I'd bet that your car's price was cut about in half because >>> of the use of robotics. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >made car. You don't expect an off-the-rack suit to fit you perfectly, >do you? All the junk should be easily user-programmable. The possible states of the electric window controls are mind-boggling. Why shouldn't the key open all the doors, first time, if I want it to? >>> I am certain that the GI's in Iraq appreciate not having to >>> get close and personal with suspicious bomb like packages [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I bet you never "noodled about" with electronics as a kid. I learned to solder when I was three, sitting in my uncle's lap. He was a TV repairman. I built my first crystal set when I was about 7, and my first Heathkit, an oscilloscope, when I was 12. But I built circuits out of parts, resistors and "condensers" and tubes. I didn't program Basic Stamps to blink LEDs... that's so many abstraction layers away from physical reality that it's useless. >They are >making an education out of something they find interesting. Why do >you think that is a bad thing? Because they are mostly assembling boards and mechanical stuff to make toys. This is at best "CS" (oxymoron itself!) and seldom involves real electronics. In many EE schools, hard things like electromagnetics and signals/systems are now *electives* for an EE degree! Having hired a number of recent-ee-grads from presumably good schools, I find that few of them understand much about electricity. And without Excel, most can't compute the voltage of two batteries in series. Domestic robots have been just-around-the-corner for 70 years or so. How tiresome. John [snip] >All the junk should be easily user-programmable. The possible states >of the electric window controls are mind-boggling. Why shouldn't the >key open all the doors, first time, if I want it to? [snip] Key? Key? You mean you don't have an RFID tag ?:-) ...Jim Thompson | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | America: Land of the Free, Because of the Brave >[snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ...Jim Thompson Oh I have those things, but I leave them in a drawer. They're big and clunky and need batteries. John > But I built > circuits out of parts, resistors and "condensers" and tubes. I didn't > program Basic Stamps to blink LEDs... that's so many abstraction > layers away from physical reality that it's useless. I take your point John, but I'd have to say that from a pragmatic point of view there are a lot more jobs out there for folks who can get BASIC Stamps to blink LEDs than those who happen to be experts in designing LED flashers out of discrete components -- it really isn't useless. Any random "handheld widget" today is expected to have, e.g., Ethernet or WiFi connectivity, MP3 playback, a color LCD, non-volatile memory, etc., and while "assembling" all the software components to make this happen isn't that horribly difficult, it does still take plenty of time, and *someone* has to do it. Universities are faced with the tough job of trying to balance how much "hard core" theory and background they teach kids with giving them high-level tools (such as Java programming and web page design classes... and I suppose TekBot classes... :-) ) that are valuable to the largest number of potential employers. I think a lot of problem stems back to the fact that these days pretty much everyone is expected to go through a four- or five-year college program, and the fact that relatively few jobs call for "hard core" knowledge means that the curriculum gets "dumbed down" to a certain extent; there's been a certain amount of convergence between the traditional college program and the traditional "vocational school" or "technical college" over the past couple of decades. That being said, the traditional classes are still there in universities... even if they are now at the graduate level. And if you take a quick salary survey, I think you'll find that those who possess the traditional "hard" electrical engineering skills -- stuff like a solid understanding of electromagnetics, feedback, noise, timing analysis, etc. -- still command quite a premium in the workplace. > Domestic robots have been just-around-the-corner for 70 years or so. > How tiresome. Yeah, but it's getting there. These are "hard" problems, after all, right? :-) Limited speaker-independent speech recognition (e.g., credit card numbers, a dozen or so commands for car heating/cooling/navigation systems, etc.) are commonplace today, everything talks, computer vision is improving all the time (the DARPA autonomous vehicle navigation contests seems to have spurred some research in this area), etc. Thanks for your input, ---Joel Until you redefine what a "robot" means. Traditionally we remember them from Saturday afternoon at the 1950s movies where they had arms, legs, and vaguely resembled a human being...and reinforced in the 80s and 90s with C3P0 and R2D2 who, while less humanoid in form were quite human in other respects. I have a robot in the back yard. It turns the sprinklers on at 2 am and again at 4 am unless it is raining, in which case it is smart enough to know not to turn the sprinklers on. It also knows to turn the sprinklers on in the afternoon if the air temperature gets above a programmable point. Is th |
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