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Electronics Forum / CAD / May 2007GC-Prevue Jump to Component
Can anyone tell me how to get reference designator information into GC-Prevue? Whenever I use Jump to Component, I get the message "Can't find a component called xx", where xx is the reference designator I am trying to locate. It appears that GC-Prevue does not have the reference designator information that it needs. Thanks, David : Can anyone tell me how to get reference designator information into : GC-Prevue? Whenever I use Jump to Component, I get the message "Can't : find a component called xx", where xx is the reference designator I am : trying to locate. : It appears that GC-Prevue does not have the reference designator : information that it needs. GC Prevue is a Gerber viewer. Gerbers are files which tell a photoplotter how to draw lines and shapes. A Gerber file has no independent concept of a component or a refdes. As far as a Gerber file is concerned, the thing which you see as a refdes is just a bunch of lines drawn in one of your files. Therefore, GC Prevue can't jump to a component since it has no concept of what's a component and what is not. I don't know why GC Prevue has a "jump to component" menu item, but I suppose that if you use a more sophosticated cam file (ODB++ or something like that), then GC Prevue knows what to do. Or maybe if you provide additional information to GC Prevue, then it can understand that a bunch of lines and apertures is really a component. But I don't know how you would input that information into GC Prevue. In any event, plain Gerber is too dumb a file format [1] to hold the information you want. Stuart [1] I am not saying that it is a bad or unintelligent file format. Rather, it is "dumb" in the sense that it doesn't hold any more info than simply how to draw lines. > But I don't know how you would input that information into GC Prevue. > In any event, plain Gerber is too dumb a file format [1] to hold the > information you want. That was my understanding as well, but since GC-Prevue has the jump to component feature, I assume there is a way to tell it about reference designators. I didn't see a way to import an ODB++ file. What other file format might be useful for telling GC-Prevue how to interpret the lines in the drawing? Thanks, David > : Can anyone tell me how to get reference designator information into > : GC-Prevue? Whenever I use Jump to Component, I get the message "Can't [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Rather, it is "dumb" in the sense that it doesn't hold any more info > than simply how to draw lines. This may be a bit far-fetched but it could theoretically do that by OCR-reading the designators off the silk screen layer(s). I'd doubt it though, considering that it can't even display layers in "see-through" style. Other than that it's a nice program.  SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com Stuart, I believe you are correct. With additional work from the user, GC-prevue can probably be instructed as to what constitutes each component. Grouping the particulary Gerber data back into a component for the purposes of reverse engineering Gerber data. Even if GC-Prevue doesn't support components, it would be very likely that their full feature version sold to fabrication shops would. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. > : Can anyone tell me how to get reference designator information into > : GC-Prevue? Whenever I use Jump to Component, I get the message "Can't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > : It appears that GC-Prevue does not have the reference designator > : information that it needs. > Stuart, > I believe you are correct. With additional work from the user, GC-prevue [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Even if GC-Prevue doesn't support components, it would be very likely > that their full feature version sold to fabrication shops would. Doesn't need extra work. It's commonly done via silkscreen OCR. The full feature version of GCPreview appears to have that. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com Joerg, But how does a silkscreen OCR know which other Gerber elements to tie together making a whole component once more. A designator does not make a component. Sorry, there is no automatic feature that could reliably do that for all component types, mountings, considering varied silkscreen practices and hidden designators. There is more to making a component then just reading a silkscreen designator, a designator is a designator not a component. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. >> Stuart, >> I believe you are correct. With additional work from the user, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Doesn't need extra work. It's commonly done via silkscreen OCR. The full > feature version of GCPreview appears to have that. > Joerg, > But how does a silkscreen OCR know which other Gerber elements to tie [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > reading a silkscreen designator, a designator is a designator not a > component. Gerber files should generally not be edited and that is not what David wanted to do. AFAIU he wants to be able to quickly go to C172 or U56 to see how they are routed, without a priori knowledge of where they are. Making components should always happen in CAD and then the Gerbers get generated when this process is complete. In my case I never do layouts, I contract that out. If my Gerber viewer had silkscreen OCR that would greatly help me in hopping to the critical nodes. I guess that's also what David is after. Unfortunately this currently means having to shell out $495 which I find a bit steep since I don't need the editing features. Oh well, there's other OCR programs, even my office scanner came with one. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com Joerg, My comments were specific to reconstructing (reverse engineering if you prefer) components from Gerber data. Yes I would never design components in Gerber given a ACD alternative but there is a lot reverse engineering that goes on even within a single company's older files. I still don't see a great deal of usefulness in the silkscreen OCR because as I mentioned designators are a quickly dying breed in most designs. Initially I was probably also concentrating on the command that David mentioned, "Jump To Component", thus made me think of reverse engineering the Gerbers to reconstruct components prior to reading the Gerber back into a CAD system for further edits/design. SignatureSincerely, Brad Velander. > Gerber files should generally not be edited and that is not what David > wanted to do. AFAIU he wants to be able to quickly go to C172 or U56 to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > $495 which I find a bit steep since I don't need the editing features. Oh > well, there's other OCR programs, even my office scanner came with one. > Joerg, > My comments were specific to reconstructing (reverse engineering if you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > engineering the Gerbers to reconstruct components prior to reading the > Gerber back into a CAD system for further edits/design. I don't think designators will die out. On the denser SMT boards with 0402 that we do mostly there will be no silkscreen on the top. But it is still generated by the layouter. I don't really see any other way for an expedient layout check. Same for troubleshooting, proto-assempbly etc. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com On 5/2/2007 10:10 AM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: >> Joerg, >> My comments were specific to reconstructing (reverse engineering [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > still generated by the layouter. I don't really see any other way for an > expedient layout check. Same for troubleshooting, proto-assempbly etc. For the boards that are so dense you can't read the silk screen or there is no silk screen, the jump to component is even more important. I often put the Ref Des on another non-printed layer. A assembly layer or some such in the center of the component. This gives me two ref-designators. One in the center on a 2nd assy layer and one on the silk layer (that is often poorly placed due to density). The next part of that is tool specific. I use PADS PCB and CAM350. I export from PAD PCB to CAM350 using the CAM export feature. From the CAM file I can export Gerbers or just leave it alone as intelligent gerbers in the CAM format. Think of this as Gerbers with component and net info. I then give my clients the free CAM350 viewer and if they can't figgure out where a component is from the silk they can use CAM350 to jump though the gerbers to look for the component. Hawker > On 5/2/2007 10:10 AM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ref-designators. One in the center on a 2nd assy layer and one on the > silk layer (that is often poorly placed due to density). Yes, that's what I mean, a non printed layer. It really helps when doing a dozen boards by hand somewhere. > The next part of that is tool specific. I use PADS PCB and CAM350. I > export from PAD PCB to CAM350 using the CAM export feature. From the CAM [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > figgure out where a component is from the silk they can use CAM350 to > jump though the gerbers to look for the component. My layouter uses PADS as well but delivers Gerbers and pho files right away. He is doing a layout for me right now and this time we do the back-and-forth via screen shots. But will have to move over to pho pretty soon as density to board size is a bit thick. But I shall not complain. Just think about it: 20 years ago we were doing the Rubylith and razor blade thing. Now we open an email attachment on our laptops and do the layout check while at a coffee shop. The only downside is that we sit too much and move too little. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com On 5/2/2007 11:22 AM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: > My layouter uses PADS as well but delivers Gerbers and pho files right > away. He is doing a layout for me right now and this time we do the > back-and-forth via screen shots. But will have to move over to pho > pretty soon as density to board size is a bit thick. If your layout dude is using PADS then ask him what version. Most PADS versions can do a CAM350 Export. Apparently somewhere in V2005 they broke this and fixed it again in 2007 (I'm using 2004). (tools/CAM350 / create file only / CAM Documents including parts and nets) If you can get a CAM file you may find this better than checking gerbers or screen shots. You can get a free CAM viewer from downstream technologies (see other link in this thread). In this way you can view his PADs database, nets, components etc with more intelligence than gerbers, but actually be looking at the final gerbers. This is way better than looking at gerbers or screen shots and easier for both you and the layout dude. Hawker > On 5/2/2007 11:22 AM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > looking at the final gerbers. This is way better than looking at gerbers > or screen shots and easier for both you and the layout dude. Looks like his can't, it'll all be regular Gerber. But that's ok, so far the bitmap format works fine for us. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com On 5/2/2007 2:41 PM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: >> On 5/2/2007 11:22 AM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Looks like his can't, it'll all be regular Gerber. But that's ok, so far > the bitmap format works fine for us. If he is using PADS then there should be no reason why he can't export CAM350 files, unless he does not know how. You must have all your CAM (PADS word for Gerber Generating scripts) written before you attempt the CAM350 export though. Hawker > On 5/2/2007 2:41 PM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > (PADS word for Gerber Generating scripts) written before you attempt the > CAM350 export though. My layouter is pretty well versed with PADS but right now I don't want to bother him with too many detailed questions. This layout is one of those fast track projects. Don't we all love those? He said he prefers to generate the big stack of files at the end and not bother investing that time right now. Which is fine for me as long as the bitmaps provide all the info I need for communicating with him. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com I would have just bought PCB CAD software with a gerber viewer module. www.ckp-railways.talktalk.net/pcbcad21.htm > Can anyone tell me how to get reference designator information into > GC-Prevue? Whenever I use Jump to Component, I get the message "Can't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It appears that GC-Prevue does not have the reference designator > information that it needs. Just went to the Graphicode web site because a client of mine will soon need a Gerber viewer. I also checked out the higher (not free) versions. Lo and behold GC PreView Plus does have silkscreen OCR. Pretty cool. But it seems a bit pricey at $495. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com On 4/29/2007 9:07 PM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: >> Can anyone tell me how to get reference designator information into >> GC-Prevue? Whenever I use Jump to Component, I get the message "Can't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Lo and behold GC PreView Plus does have silkscreen OCR. Pretty cool. But > it seems a bit pricey at $495. Interesting. I wish CAM350 had that. Oh well. That is the first REAL usable feature that I have heard from that product that I could not do in CAM350 Hawker > On 4/29/2007 9:07 PM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > That is the first REAL usable feature that I have heard from that > product that I could not do in CAM350 Question: Does CAM350 have semi-transparent layer representation so you can see through to at least one layer down? None of the viewers I tried had that. Beats me why because it is a rather mundane but critical feature. Without it one has to constantly hide/unhide layers. I've got a huge layout coming and I am always thankful when I made it through one without carpal tunnel problems. SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com On 4/30/2007 8:22 PM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: >> On 4/29/2007 9:07 PM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > huge layout coming and I am always thankful when I made it through one > without carpal tunnel problems. Yes Hitting "t" toggles transparency mode. Download it and try. They give you a full 30 license to try it for free. Hawker > On 4/30/2007 8:22 PM, The digits of Joerg's hands composed the following: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Yes Hitting "t" toggles transparency mode. > Download it and try. They give you a full 30 license to try it for free. Thanks. Well, I need something that works for more than 30 days. Instead of a price they only posted a phone number, which typically leads to the usual high-$$ haggle. Their CAMvu can't read Gerbers but I found a link where they mentioned that there is a stripped down CAM350 version sans editing capabilities. That's all I need. This is the link if anyone else is interested: http://www.downstreamtech.com/CAM350/CAMvu.html SignatureRegards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |
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