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Free electronics simulation software

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Carl - 19 Apr 2007 01:38 GMT
There is a free electronics circuit simulator available called
CircuitLogix.  Check it out.  It is quite amazing.  The website for
the free electronics simulation software is www.CircuitLogix.com.

Carl
Helmut Sennewald - 19 Apr 2007 06:12 GMT
> There is a free electronics circuit simulator available called
> CircuitLogix.  Check it out.  It is quite amazing.  The website for
> the free electronics simulation software is www.CircuitLogix.com.
>
> Carl

Hello Carl,

You forgot to mention that it is only licensed for students
or have I wrongly understood their license agreement?

Best regards,
Helmut
Carl - 19 Apr 2007 16:59 GMT
On Apr 19, 12:12 am, "Helmut Sennewald" <helmutsennew...@t-online.de>
wrote:

> > There is a free electronics circuit simulator available called
> >CircuitLogix.  Check it out.  It is quite amazing.  The website for
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Best regards,
> Helmut

Hi Helmut,

As I understand it, they are taking a very liberal approach to the
term "student".  If you are using it at home or in the office for your
own purposes (ie self-study) it is no problem to download it.

Carl
Helmut Sennewald - 19 Apr 2007 17:40 GMT
> On Apr 19, 12:12 am, "Helmut Sennewald" <helmutsennew...@t-online.de>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Carl

Hello Carl,
the text below is the original text from their webpage.
It's very restrictive. They not only insist on on beeing a student,
they also want the name of your teacher.
I wonder what you have read there.
Maybe my English is too bad to understand that. :-)

Best regards,
Helmut

---
The student version of CircuitLogix electronics lab simulation is available
free of charge to any student studying electronics through an educational
institution. This edition of CircuitLogix was created especially to provide
students with free access to one of the best resources available for
learning electronics.
---
Joel Kolstad - 19 Apr 2007 19:15 GMT
> the text below is the original text from their webpage.
> It's very restrictive. They not only insist on on beeing a student,
> they also want the name of your teacher.

They also specifically disallow schools to deploy it, e.g., network wide!

With their current restrictions, I can't see anyone who *knows* about, e.g.,
LTSpice, actually using their product.
Carl - 23 Apr 2007 15:05 GMT
On Apr 19, 1:15 pm, "Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad71HatesS...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > the text below is the original text from their webpage.
> > It's very restrictive. They not only insist on on beeing a student,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> With their current restrictions, I can't see anyone who *knows* about, e.g.,
> LTSpice, actually using their product.

Hi Joel,

LTSpice is pretty good for analog simulation, but CircuitLogix
provides both analog and digital simulation.

Carl
Stuart Brorson - 23 Apr 2007 17:02 GMT
: LTSpice is pretty good for analog simulation, but CircuitLogix
: provides both analog and digital simulation.

Boy!  It looks like a "pile on Carl" thread!  Somewhat deserved, too,
since he's obviously a shill for CircuitL*gix.

LTSpice does some digital simulation also, much more than normal
SPICE.  I'll let the champions of LTSpice elaborate on this point.

My question about CircuitL*gix is:  what type of digitial simulation?
Can it read Verilog or VHDL netlists and do so-simulation with SPICE
netlists?  Or does it just have a few "digial" circuit elements
("and", "or", "not", a DFF, and a counter or two)?  If it's the
latter, then it does about the same thing as LTSpice (or less).
Nothing to get excited about.

If it's the former (i.e. Verilog/VHDL), then is that available in the
freebie student edition?

And what about handling Verilog-AMS?  There are so many free SPICE
simulators out there nowadays (both open and closed source) that
CircuitL*gix seems like a "me too" product about 5 years late to the
party unless it can handle Verilog-AMS, or do something similarly
novel.

Stuart
Carl - 23 Apr 2007 17:11 GMT
> : LTSpice is pretty good for analog simulation, but CircuitLogix
> : provides both analog and digital simulation.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Stuart

Hi guys,

Well, I give up.  Accusing me of being a shill for CircuitLogix is too
much.  To answer your question, Stuart, yes it does do co-simulation
with SPICE and it can read VHDL.

Carl

p.s.  I am a design engineer with Motorola and I also work as an
adjunct professor at Texas A&M.  I could care less about whether you
download a free version of CircuitLogix, I was more interested in
sharing some good news about free simulation.  Obviously, I shouldn't
have bothered.
Stuart Brorson - 23 Apr 2007 18:09 GMT
: Well, I give up.  Accusing me of being a shill for CircuitLogix is too
: much.  

Well, no offense intended.  Sorry!

: p.s.  I am a design engineer with Motorola and I also work as an
: adjunct professor at Texas A&M.  

Bully for you!

: I could care less about whether you
: download a free version of CircuitLogix, I was more interested in
: sharing some good news about free simulation.  Obviously, I shouldn't
: have bothered.

We are leery of folks posting "look at this great new free
tool" messages here since free tools from commerical vendors usually
have strings attached [1].  The classic examples are ExpressPCB, which
offers free design/layout software, but locks you into a proprietary
output file format usable only at ExpressPCB; and Eagle, whose free
version is wildly popular with students, but is essentially crippled
since it limits you to two layers and a fairly small board area.  Once
you bump up against the limits of the freebie Eagle, you've got to pay
for the full-up version [2].

FWIW, there are lots of freebie and open-source simulators of various
flavors out there, including:  

LTSpice -- closed source SPICE with integrated schematic capture.
          Totally rocks!
          http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/

ngspice -- open source SPICE 3f5.  Still uses a CLI, and not as
          optimized as LTSpice, but it works.
          http://ngspice.sourceforge.net/

GnuCap --  Analog simulator with internal engine a generation or two
          ahead of regular SPICE.  Open source.  
          Can do event-driven simulation as
          well as continuous time.  Still uses CLI, and can read
          SPICE netlists (with some caveats).
          http://www.gnucap.org/

QUCS --    A spiffy new GUI-based simulation environment which claims
          to do all kinds of simulation.  Open source.  
          Incorporates schematic
          capture front end.  I believe they have some work to do
          until it's complete.
          http://qucs.sourceforge.net/

Icarus Verilog --
          Excellent Verilog open-source simulator run from the
          command line.  Used with GTKWave for waveform viewing, it's
          a powerful tool for Verilog design.
          http://icarus.com/eda/verilog/
          http://home.nc.rr.com/gtkwave/

Alliance VHDL --
          French university project providing a chip design tool
          suite.  Includes VHDL simulator.  I've never used it so
          I know very little about it.
          http://www-asim.lip6.fr/recherche/alliance//

TkGate --  GUI based logic simulator.  More of an eductional tool than
          a professional design tool, but it's cool nonetheless.
          Open-source.  
          http://www.tkgate.org/

PSpice --  Years ago PSpice 6.x from MicroSim was downloadable off the
          web for free.  Is it still around?

Tina --    TI's simulation program.  Version 7 is a free download.  Is
          it some kind of "me too" response to LTSpice?  I haven't
          used it.
          http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/tina-ti.html

Besides these, there's also MyHDL, PyHDL, FreeHDL, regular Spice3f5,
and plenty of other free simulators out there available on the
web.  And don't get me started on schematic capture, layout tools,
or chip design editors!

You can follow the open-source EDA tool space here:

http://www.opencollector.org/

As you can see, CircuitL*gix is just another entrant into a very
crowded market space.  Maybe it's got some better features than some
other tool?  But from your initial postings it didn't make it seem
so.  Also, commercial giveaways are always to be regarded with
suspicion.  And we're a very cynical group in any event.

Cheers,

Stuart

[1]  LTSpice being a notable exception, probably because they make
their money from chips, not from software.

[2] Nothing wrong with that, since the freebie tool is a loss leader.
But anybody using it should think twice about the long-term dangers of
vendor lock-in before they have too many designs done in such a tool.
Same for CircuitL*gix, I would imagine.
JeffM - 23 Apr 2007 21:14 GMT
Carl <cds142@ hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I could care less

One assumes Carl meant **could NOT care less**.

>>about whether you download a free version of CircuitLogix,
>I was more interested in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>We are leery of folks posting
>"look at this great new free tool" messages here

Yup.  Astroturfing abounds.
http://www.google.com/search?q=define:Astroturfing

>since free tools from commerical vendors
>usually have strings attached.
>The classic examples are ExpressPCB[...];

Yup: Lock-in-ware

>and [EAGLE], whose free version is wildly popular with students,
>but is essentially crippled since it limits you to
>two layers and a fairly small board area.

True--but, in the year 2007, you have glossed over the biggie:
Cadsoft's DRM (Lock-OUT-ware)
--and their recently-implemented treat-'em-all-like-thieves attitude
(even for fully-paid customers):  8-(

**The Downside of EAGLE** by Markus Zingg
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/browse_frm/thread/f794e82d26b5
9e18/d7cf4149edb93ac7?q=*-*-website+reuse+paying.*+*-I-will-switch+cracked-*+*.w
ould.not.help.*+zzz+after-*-*-version-*+copied+*.*.unlock.*.designs+*-*-*-*-exch
ange-*-*-*-*-third-party+reused+qq+*-*-single-bit-*-*-*-*+useless+*-*-*-projects
-could-no-longer-be-opened

news:1jisj25b43ucaddcu7sm9n82i8sk98v2ut@4ax.com
Joel Kolstad - 23 Apr 2007 21:51 GMT
> Tina --    TI's simulation program.  Version 7 is a free download.  Is
>           it some kind of "me too" response to LTSpice?

TINA is commerical SPICE package (out of Budapest!) that TI licensed from
DesignSoft.  TI's response to LTSpice has primarily been to provide a
fuller-featured version of TINA (for free) than they previously had.
JerryG - 25 Apr 2007 14:34 GMT
Eagle, LTSpice, and TINA?  What is this......Losers anonymous?  Those are the
three worst simulators that have ever been built.  At least LTSpice has the
excuse that they are not really a simulation product since they sell hardware.
But LTSpice and TINA?  Give me a break. Why even post messages when you have
no clue about simulation software.  Stay in school for a few more years and
then get a job and then post messages.  Until then you are just taking up
valuable space.

Jerry

>: Well, I give up.  Accusing me of being a shill for CircuitLogix is too
>: much.  
[quoted text clipped - 98 lines]
>vendor lock-in before they have too many designs done in such a tool.
>Same for CircuitL*gix, I would imagine.
Stuart Brorson - 25 Apr 2007 19:02 GMT
: Eagle, LTSpice, and TINA?  What is this......Losers anonymous?  Those are the
: three worst simulators that have ever been built.  At least LTSpice has the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: then get a job and then post messages.  Until then you are just taking up
: valuable space.

*chuckle*

I'll be interested in your ranting when you post some benchmark
results comparing CircuitL*gix run times to LTSpice's.  Also, please
post some *reasons* about why CircuitL*gix is better than LTSpice --
besides the purported VHDL ability, which doesn't even appear on their
website as far as I could tell.

Otherwise, you're just another CircuitL*gix shill, and a cranky
one at that.

Meanwhile, for educators looking for simulation software:
consider the full range of freeware and open-source options, including
CircuitL*gix.  But remember why the different closed-source freeware
simulators are out there:  most of them are some attempt at vendor
lock-in.

I'll now leave this thread unless one of you CircuitL*gix guys has
something quantifiable to say.  

Stuart
JerryG - 25 Apr 2007 20:21 GMT
>: Eagle, LTSpice, and TINA?  What is this......Losers anonymous?  Those are the
>: three worst simulators that have ever been built.  At least LTSpice has the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>Stuart

The only shill in this discussion is you, Stuart.  You seem to have some
weird obsession with LTSpice, which is a nice little simulator if all you
want to do is analog simulation.  At least CircuitLogix and Multisim provide
mixed-mode simulation, which is what real designers require.  Why you are
afraid of a free simulation product is strange, to say the least.
Steve - 26 Apr 2007 15:27 GMT
> The only shill in this discussion is you, Stuart.  You seem to have some
> weird obsession with LTSpice, which is a nice little simulator if all you
> want to do is analog simulation.  At least CircuitLogix and Multisim
> provide
> mixed-mode simulation, which is what real designers require.  Why you are
> afraid of a free simulation product is strange, to say the least.

Wow. I had no idea I wasn't a real designer....
Thanks for clearing that up

Steve
Joel Kolstad - 23 Apr 2007 21:46 GMT
> p.s.  I am a design engineer with Motorola and I also work as an
> adjunct professor at Texas A&M.

Unless they have very specific needs, I'd suggest it's not really in the best
interest of your students to steer them towards CircuitLogix rather than
LTSpice.  A reasonably sophisticated sernior project could readily exceed the
circuit size limits of the free version of CircuitLogix.  Additionally,
LTSpice is *very* well supported -- for free! -- on the Yahoo! groups; the
program's author still posts regularly.  Just looking at the web site itself,
it's clear that they want to *sell students* the "full educational version."
Of course, there's nothing wrong with trying to make a buck, it's just again
that CircuitLogix doesn't appear to offer $249 worth of "added value" over all
the freeware solutions out there.
Helmut Sennewald - 29 Apr 2007 08:09 GMT
> On Apr 19, 1:15 pm, "Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad71HatesS...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Carl

Hello Carl,

First of all LTspice has also built-in mixed mode capability.

I tried now the CircuitLogix simulator. I have to admit that this
animation capability of CircuitLogix is a good feature especially
for education.  www.CircuitLogix.com

On the other hand I couldn't run any of the benchmark SPICE-circuits
with the CircuitLogix program. It always gives the error message:
Invalid CIRCUIT path/file name.
I tried some examples, e.g. File->Open ".cir"  sqrt.cir
http://www.intusoft.com/models/MCNC.zip
(I remaned the SPICE netlist sqrt.sp to sqrt.cir)
Maybe you can tell me what I should change to run this example
with the CircuitLogix simulator.

Overall LTspice is a much more compatible SPICE simulator.
Many of the commercial SPICE simulators don't have this compatilibity.
You can take every SPICE book and immediately run the examples
with LTspice on a netlist level.
I also like the more powerful waveform editor in LTspice.
It can easily work with data files having 1Giga-Byte.
I reommend LTSpice for people who want SPICE.
Not to forgot the many SMPS-models provided with LTspice.
http://www.linear.com/designtools/leadfree/index.jsp

CircuitLogix will have it's place in education because of it's animation
capability. I appreciate that it's free for students and not limited
as most other student versions of commercial SPICE-simulators.
Isn't it the refreshed CircuitMaker program?

Best regards,
Helmut
Carl - 30 Apr 2007 16:19 GMT
On Apr 29, 2:09 am, "Helmut Sennewald" <helmutsennew...@t-online.de>
wrote:

> > On Apr 19, 1:15 pm, "Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad71HatesS...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hello Helmut,

As much as I would love to comment on CircuitLogix and its Netlist
capabilities, I am not going to bother.  The rude comments that are
posted here and accusations regarding being a shill are completely
discouraging and counterproductive to having any useful discussion
regarding circuit simulation.  It seems that certain people in this
discussion group are more interested in bullying than exchanging
information.

Please note that I am not including you, Helmut, among this group of
small-minded individuals, but it is clear that some people who
subscribe to this user group have an agenda regarding what types of
information they would like to discuss and they are unwilling to allow
any other perspectives to enter the discussion.

Carl
kevin_fullerton@yahoo.com - 24 Apr 2007 16:39 GMT
> There is a free electronics circuit simulator available called
> CircuitLogix.  Check it out.  It is quite amazing.  The website for
> the free electronics simulation software iswww.CircuitLogix.com.
>
> Carl

Hey Carl,

Thanks for forwarding the link regarding CircuitLogix.  I did the
download and it looks very cool.  I couldn't find any info about PCB
exporting.  Do you know if it has that capability?

Kevin
Kevin - 24 Apr 2007 18:44 GMT
> There is a free electronics circuit simulator available called
> CircuitLogix.  Check it out.  It is quite amazing.  The website for
> the free electronics simulation software iswww.CircuitLogix.com.
>
> Carl

Hey Carl,

Thanks for the link regarding Circuitlogix.  I did the download for
the free simulator but couldn't find any information about PCB
export.  Do you know if it has this feature?

Kevin
JerryG - 25 Apr 2007 14:26 GMT
Kevin,

I downloaded CircuitLogix last night and there is a VHDL function as well as
PCB export.  Look in the Help file and select "PCB export".  I have Multisim
8 (which I paid $600 for and it is garbage).  Someone was mentioning LTSpice
was better than CircuitLogix, which is quite hilarious.  LTSpice looks like
it was designed by high school kids.  I guess LTSpice is ok if you are
designing really simple circuits or if you don't know much about electronics.
CIrcuitLogix is the real deal.  How they are making money from it is a
mystery, since they give it away for free.  But I don't care.  Free is good.

Jerry

>> There is a free electronics circuit simulator available called
>> CircuitLogix.  Check it out.  It is quite amazing.  The website for
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Kevin
Ian Bell - 25 Apr 2007 15:08 GMT
snip

> CIrcuitLogix is the real deal.  How they are making money from it is a
> mystery,.

Because they sell it for $249 Jerry.

Ian
JerryG - 25 Apr 2007 15:25 GMT
I downloaded the software and my wallet still has the same amount of money as
before I did the download, so I don't see how it cost me $249.  

I understand that there is a full version for $249 with even more bells and
whistles, but what I downloaded for free from the CircuitLogix site is better
than what I paid Multisim hundreds of dollars for last year.  The free
download is great.  Don't be a party-pooper, Ian.  The best things in life
are free.

Jerry

>snip
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Ian
Ian Bell - 25 Apr 2007 23:27 GMT
> I downloaded the software and my wallet still has the same amount of money
> as before I did the download, so I don't see how it cost me $249.

Because you downloaded the student edition with a restricted licence.

> I understand that there is a full version for $249 with even more bells
> and whistles, but what I downloaded for free from the CircuitLogix site is
> better
> than what I paid Multisim hundreds of dollars for last year.  The free
> download is great.  Don't be a party-pooper, Ian.  The best things in life
> are free.

I agree. LTSpice is full featured and completely free.

Ian
Chuck Harris - 25 Apr 2007 15:11 GMT
> Kevin,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> it was designed by high school kids.  I guess LTSpice is ok if you are
> designing really simple circuits or if you don't know much about electronics.

In one simple sentence, you have successfully proven that you know nothing
about simulators.

-Chuck

LTSpice is a slight variation on the spice used by the chip designers at
Linear Technology... one of the most highly regarded linear IC manufacturers
in the world.
Kevin - 25 Apr 2007 15:29 GMT
That's nice.  How's your job at Linear Technologies going.  Did they give you
a raise for your posting?

>> Kevin,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Linear Technology... one of the most highly regarded linear IC manufacturers
>in the world.
Chuck Harris - 25 Apr 2007 15:34 GMT
> That's nice.  How's your job at Linear Technologies going.  Did they give you
> a raise for your posting?

Oh, you're the smart one!

I have never worked for LT, but I do use LT's parts, and LTSpice.

-Chuck
Kevin - 25 Apr 2007 15:54 GMT
>> That's nice.  How's your job at Linear Technologies going.  Did they give you
>> a raise for your posting?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>-Chuck

Then you should understand that LTSpice only does analog simulation.  A real
simulator does mixed-mode (digital and analog).  Have fun with your toy
simulator.
Chuck Harris - 25 Apr 2007 16:20 GMT
>>> That's nice.  How's your job at Linear Technologies going.  Did they give you
>>> a raise for your posting?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> simulator does mixed-mode (digital and analog).  Have fun with your toy
> simulator.

A real simulator?  Spices are analog simulators by nature.

I'm having difficulty understanding why you would want to
throw digital in with an analog simulation.

Do tell!

-Chuck
Kevin - 25 Apr 2007 16:43 GMT
Unlike SPICE, which is designed mainly for analog simulation, mixed-mode
simulators such as Multisim and CircuitLogix include both analog and event-
driven digital simulation capabilities in the same executable. This means
that any simulation may contain components that are analog, event driven
(digital or sampled-data), or a combination of both. An entire mixed signal
analysis can be driven from one integrated schematic. All the digital models
in mixed-mode simulators provide accurate specification of propagation time
and rise/fall time delays.

The event driven algorithm provided by mixed-mode simulators is general
purpose and supports non-digital types of data. For example, elements can use
real or integer values to simulate DSP functions or sampled data filters.
Because the event driven algorithm is faster than the standard SPICE matrix
solution simulation time is greatly reduced for circuits that use event
driven models in place of analog models.

Mixed-mode simulation is handled on three levels; (a) with primitive digital
elements that use timing models and the built-in 12 or 16 state digital logic
simulator, (b) with subcircuit models that use the actual transistor topology
of the integrated circuit, and finally, (c) with In-line Boolean logic
expressions.

Exact representations are used mainly in the analysis of transmission line
and signal integrity problems where a close inspection of an IC’s I/O
characteristics is needed. Boolean logic expressions are delay-less functions
that are used to provide efficient logic signal processing in an analog
environment. These two modeling techniques use SPICE to solve a problem while
the third method, digital primitives, use mixed mode capability. Each of
these methods has its merits and target applications. In fact, many
simulations (particularly those which use A/D technology) call for the
combination of all three approaches. No one approach alone is sufficient.

>>>> That's nice.  How's your job at Linear Technologies going.  Did they give you
>>>> a raise for your posting?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>-Chuck
Joel Kolstad - 25 Apr 2007 16:58 GMT
> Unlike SPICE, which is designed mainly for analog simulation, mixed-mode
> simulators such as Multisim and CircuitLogix include both analog and event-
> driven digital simulation capabilities in the same executable...

FYI, just as many (perhaps even most, albeit with LTSpice as one significant
exception) commercial SPICEs are based on the original Berkeley source code,
many mixed analog/digital simulator (including your Multisim, Kevin Aylward's
SuperSPICE, etc.) are based on the XSPICE source code from Georgia Tech.  And
just as there are plenty of free "analog" SPICEs around, there are also plenty
of free XSPICEs around as well.

However, I would grant you that the commercial simulator industry was already
very much alive and kicking by the time XSPICE was released, and there are a
lot more "nicely polished" analog SPICEs that happen to be free than there are
nicely polished mixed-signal SPICEs.

Of course there are plenty of other ways to do mixed signal simulation as
well...VHDL-A has significant support commercially.

---Joel
Kevin Aylward - 25 Apr 2007 18:53 GMT
>>> That's nice.  How's your job at Linear Technologies going.  Did
>>> they give you a raise for your posting?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> A real simulator does mixed-mode (digital and analog).  Have fun with
> your toy simulator.

This all depends on what you want to do with the simulator. There are
markets for both mixed-mode and a better pure analogue.

Although I agree that LTSpice's GUI, is a bit lacking, well a lot lacking
actually, it has features that for quite a few applications, make it a
number one choice. I say this, despite flogging my own mixed-mode bit of
kit.

LTSpice is probably about the best converging spice on the market, and runs
around 3 times as fast. In my day job, I routinely run very long simulations
on high transistor count designs, and having something done in 1/2 day
verses two days would be a great bonus.

As far as "real" mixed-mode simulator goes, unless it integrates with the
Cadence suite, its pretty much useless. I don't see much of a professional
market for mixed-mode design outside of SoC i.c. design.

Signature

Kevin Aylward
ka@anasoft.co.uk
www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice

engr4fun - 26 Apr 2007 19:30 GMT
> LTSpice is probably about the best converging spice on the market, and runs
> around 3 times as fast. In my day job, I routinely run very long simulations
> on high transistor count designs, and having something done in 1/2 day
> verses two days would be a great bonus.

In testing simulators, we ran some SPICE netlist tests on LTSpice,
PSpice and Microcap.  We had heard all the hype about LTSpice but the
simulation speeds in most of the netlists was a good deal slower than
both PSpice and Microcap.  We were not running simulations with their
enhanced Linear models but just a few general circuit files though.
Perhaps if you use the SMPS capability with the Linear models, then it
is a fast simulator, or we just fluked into a few circuits that
LTSpice has problems with.  Was not impressive though.  Great price
however.
Helmut Sennewald - 26 Apr 2007 19:50 GMT
>> LTSpice is probably about the best converging spice on the market, and
>> runs
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> LTSpice has problems with.  Was not impressive though.  Great price
> however.

Hello eng4fun,

Have you considered the number of steps caculated in ".tran" and the
default settings about accuracy?

I am interested in your test circuits to for my own benchmarking.
Can you send me one of your test cases?

Best regards,
Helmut

PS: I am not an employee of LTC if that matters.
engr4fun - 26 Apr 2007 23:01 GMT
>Helmut
> I am interested in your test circuits to for my own benchmarking.
> Can you send me one of your test cases?

Unfortunately, I think we were testing proprietary circuits since we
of course wanted to see how these simulators acted with our types of
circuits.  They may have also tested some other netlists as well.
I'll check with the guy who ran all of these.

>Kevin
>So... for example, did you manually try and set LT minimum time steps? Doing
>so is not recommended. It will usually slow it down significantly. LT wants
>to be run on automatic settings.

We kept all of the simulators on their default settings.  The Maximum
Time Step was typically set in the .tran statement.
Kevin Aylward - 27 Apr 2007 18:20 GMT
>> Helmut
>> I am interested in your test circuits to for my own benchmarking.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> We kept all of the simulators on their default settings.  The Maximum
> Time Step was typically set in the .tran statement.

The point here is that you don't want to do that in LTSpice. It makes a BIG
difference to the speed.  .tran for LT should just be how long you want it
to run for. If you specify a default time step as well it will override LT's
algorithm. Considering that halving the number of points will half the
simulation time, a good time step algorithm is crucial.

Signature

Kevin Aylward
ka@kevinaylward.co.uk

engr4fun - 27 Apr 2007 19:18 GMT
Helmut,

I tried to post this information previously but it doesn't seem to
have taken.  My coworker tried one more circuit from the list since
then.

We can't provide the original circuits we used, but we found some on
the web called MCNC which are supposed to be SPICE benchmark
circuits.  The three simulators tested were PSpice Ver 9, Micro-Cap 9,
and LTSpice 2.20k.  I know PSpice is an older version but the guys who
use it love it and don't want to upgrade to the creature that Cadence
has created.  Both PSpice and Micro-Cap are professional versions not
student versions.  For the system we did this on, both Micro-Cap and
LTSpice were fresh installs so everything was defaulted.  We set
PSpice back to its default conditions as best we could.  We chose
circuits randomly from the set while ignoring the huge ones since we
can't put too much time into this.  In each simulator, we just loaded
the circuit and simulated.  That's all.  The results were:

SQRT.CIR
PSpice - 100.98s
Micro-Cap - 99.06s
LTSpice - 207.046s

AROM.CIR
PSpice - 8.11s
Micro-Cap - 4.41s
LTSpice - 10.25s

ADD32.CIR
PSpice - 609.53s
Micro-Cap - 868.70s
LTSpice - 1917.749s

MUX8.CIR
PSpice - 15.06s
Micro-Cap - 7.52s
LTSpice - 15.25s

I must be missing some setting to change in LTSpice but this is how it
installs.

Alex
Helmut Sennewald - 28 Apr 2007 00:25 GMT
> Helmut,
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Alex

Hello Alex,

There is a default setting of trtol=7 for PSPICE and Micro-Cap.
LTspice has the more precise default setting trtol=1.
LTspice will run about two times faster if trtol is rised from 1 to 7.
If  I divide your numbers by this factor, LTspice looks as fast as PSPICE
and Micro-Cap

Please add the following SPICE-line to the netlists for a comparable result.

.options trtol=7

I tried the same netlists on my PC with LTspice.
AMD64-4000+(2.4GHz), 2GB
Benchmark files: http://www.intusoft.com/models/MCNC.zip

SQRT.sp
trtol=1    142.3sec
trtol=7    70.2sec

AROM.sp
trtol=1    4.8sec
trtol=7    2.1sec

ADD32.sp
trtol=1  1110sec
trtol=7  768sec
trtol=6  706sec
trtol=5  720sec

MUX8.sp
trtol=1  7.3sec
trtol=7  3.7sec

Best regards,
Helmut

PS: I don't expect it would be faster with a 2.4GHz Core-2 Duo.
Helmut Sennewald - 28 Apr 2007 00:50 GMT
>> Helmut,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> trtol=6  706sec
> trtol=5  720sec

Hello again,

An additional cshunt-capacitance avoids numerical problems with
hyper-fast unreralistic transitions. Just think of it as a fraction of
the wiring capacitance.
trtol=7
cshunrt=1f
-> 605sec

Now we are back at about this factor 2 in speed compared to trtol=7.

Best regarsd,
Helmut

> MUX8.sp
> trtol=1  7.3sec
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> PS: I don't expect it would be faster with a 2.4GHz Core-2 Duo.
Kevin Aylward - 28 Apr 2007 07:46 GMT
>> Helmut,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> result.
> .options trtol=7

There is a reason for trtol=1 not 7! I get the same sort of speed up in my
XPSpice with trtol=7, however, I have found that this setting just does not
guarantee correct results in some circuits, especially my switching power
supply examples in SuperSpice, so I also have it defaulted to trtol=1. Its
not just an inaccuracy, its can give fundermenatlly wrong results. Even
trtol=2 is not enough for some circuits.

I would like to see the benchmarks run with trtol=1 for all simulators see
what the results are.

Signature

Kevin Aylward
ka@kevinaylward.co.uk

Helmut Sennewald - 28 Apr 2007 23:29 GMT
>>> Helmut,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> I would like to see the benchmarks run with trtol=1 for all simulators see
> what the results are.

Hello Kevin,

I tried today in the office three of the benchmarks with PSPICE on a C2-PC.
benchmarks:  http://www.intusoft.com/models/MCNC.zip

    TRTOL   PSPICE-C2  LTspice-C2   LTspice-AMD64
AROM   7       3.84       2.53           2.1
AROM   1      10.26       5.84           4.8
MUX8   7       6.83       4.67           3.7
MUX8   1      14.36       9.27           7.3
SQRT   7      49.08      53.67          70.2
SQRT   1     118.53     108.22         142.3

C2: Intel Core2-Duo 2.33GHz (Xeon)
AMD64: 4000+, socket 939

PSPICE  10.2
LTspice  2.20k

My conclusion is that LTspice is at least as fast as PSPICE and MC-SPICE.
I expect each of the three simulators will win in a few benchmarks and
overall LTspice will reach a good position in this race.

Best regards,
Helmut

PS: It's necessary for PSPICE to remove the character # in the names
used in the circuit files and to change the file names to ".cir".
LTspice doesn't require any change.
http://www.intusoft.com/models/MCNC.zip
engr4fun - 30 Apr 2007 17:31 GMT
Thanks Helmut,

Changing TRTOL to 7 did get rid of the speed difference at least on
the SQRT circuit.  LTSpice ran it at 101s.  Didn't try CShunt.  Micro-
Cap has CShunt available but not PSpice (at least our version) so
wouldn't have a good test across the three simulators.  I'm going to
guess that TRTOL is the factor for the others also, since we've put a
little too much time into testing these.  Time to get back to real
work.

Alex
Kevin Aylward - 26 Apr 2007 20:02 GMT
>> LTSpice is probably about the best converging spice on the market,
>> and runs around 3 times as fast. In my day job, I routinely run very
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> simulation speeds in most of the netlists was a good deal slower than
> both PSpice and Microcap.

This is at odds with pretty much all prior benchmarks reported in this NG
and my own test runs, so I am major sceptical.

So... for example, did you manually try and set LT minimum time steps? Doing
so is not recommended. It will usually slow it down significantly. LT wants
to be run on automatic settings.

Signature

Kevin Aylward
ka@kevinaylward.co.uk

 
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