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Which is the best hobby do-it-yourself method for making PCB's?

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samIam - 21 Nov 2005 17:14 GMT
In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
20 - 30% is rework for missing/broken traces etc.

I am just wondering what is the best hobby do-it-yourself method?

Someone hinted at photo transfer

What has worked for you guys in the past?
What gives the best results on a fairly consistent basis?
How about double sided boards?
Thanks
Paul Burridge - 21 Nov 2005 16:48 GMT
Simplest and cheapest way is copper clad board, ferric chloride,
acetone, metal polish and a permanent, black felt pen.
1. Thoroughly clean the copper cladding with wadding metal polish and
buff-up to high shine.
2. Draw out the tracks where you want them with the felt pen.
3. Allow the ink to dry thoroughly in a warm atmosphere.
4. Heat the ferric chloride solution in a shallow plastic tray  to
around 50'C.
5. Drop the board into the solution and agitate until unwanted areas
of copper are dissolved.
6. Remove, wash in warm water, dry.
7. Wash off the black marker traces with acetone  and repeat step 1
wrt to the metal polish.
8. After soldering in components, lacquer the board (optional).
Signature


"What is now proved was once only imagin'd" - William Blake

Tim Wescott - 21 Nov 2005 18:02 GMT
> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> How about double sided boards?
> Thanks

I think I've etched one board, ever.  After that experience I just use
breadboards from vector or rat-shack, or I dead-bug things on an
unetched copper groundplane.  If I feel a need for an "etched" board I
slice islands out of the copper with an x-acto knife and surface-mount
through-hole components onto the pads (think of dead bugging with pads).

If I really needed accuracy I'd make the circuit on Eagle and send it
out to http://www.pcbexpress.com or another fast-turn house.  If you
want to be trapped by proprietary software you could use
http://www.expresspcb.com.  Both of these latter methods, incidentally,
work extremely well if you are being paid by the hour -- they can do it
much cheaper than you can unless you're getting starvation wages.

The ARRL Handbook covers all of these methods.

Signature

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

John  Larkin - 21 Nov 2005 18:22 GMT
>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>How about double sided boards?
>Thanks

Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or
one of the other cheapie board houses.

John
Joerg - 21 Nov 2005 21:23 GMT
Hello John,

> Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or
> one of the other cheapie board houses.

You can etch stuff yourself (I did as a kid) with 100% success rate but
not plate through. I made some really fine pitch 'circuit board
transformers' that way since the commercial ones cost way too much.

An additional issue with that is what to do with all the chemicals
afterwards. Some people store that forever and then one day the
container rusts out or the cat knocks it over.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
samIam - 22 Nov 2005 21:09 GMT
> An additional issue with that is what to do with all the chemicals
> afterwards. Some people store that forever and then one day the
> container rusts out or the cat knocks it over.

Good point.
I tracked down the hazardous material depot in my county. I am going
to visit them some time next week to "unload" some used ferric
chloride

Once I know how much it costs and how often I can bring it to them,
Ill get serious about manufacturing test boards I design at home.
Joerg - 24 Nov 2005 22:44 GMT
Hello Sam,

>> An additional issue with that is what to do with all the chemicals
>> afterwards. Some people store that forever and then one day the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to visit them some time next week to "unload" some used ferric
> chloride

But please tell them honestly what it is that you bring. Else it can
cause accidents and contamination.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
JeffM - 25 Nov 2005 20:03 GMT
>>...hazardous material depot in my county. I am going
>>to..."unload" some used ferric chloride
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Else it can cause accidents and contamination.
> Joerg

Early on, I was written up for
dispensing chemicals into smaller containers and not labeling them.
Since then, I've become a bit of a fanatic about labels.

I like to get an almost-used-up roll
of the 2" transparent tape they use in the shipping dept
and put that over the label so solvents, bleaching agents, or stains
won't have such an easy time making them unreadable.
Robert Baer - 26 Nov 2005 05:18 GMT
>>>...hazardous material depot in my county. I am going
>>>to..."unload" some used ferric chloride
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and put that over the label so solvents, bleaching agents, or stains
> won't have such an easy time making them unreadable.

  "uneradable" means worse than obscene - not fit even for adults!
Chuck Harris - 26 Nov 2005 13:24 GMT
>> won't have such an easy time making them unreadable.
>>
>   "uneradable" means worse than obscene - not fit even for adults!

No it doesn't, and nor does unreadable.

You need to become familiar with a dictionary.

-Chuck
samIam - 28 Nov 2005 16:30 GMT
Actually I didnt need to take this step at all. The car repair shop
(where they offer 15 minute oil changes)was more than happy to
add the ferric cl to his contamination/waste disposal
binge/bottle/whatever.

I stopped by for an oil change and transmission flush and noticed the
sign "waste disposal fee - $1.20" and I asked the guy what it was for.
He replied ... that they charge to dispose the contimated engine oil
(I thought that was PART of the oil change cost) .. in any case I
casually asked if I could bring in a FeCl I have accumulated in a large
snapple plastic bottle and he said sure

I brough it in and mentioned "hey be careful that stuff will eat through
flesh and metal" and he replied "calm down, I know exactly what this
stuff is"

So I will be taking it to him after ever 6 or 7 boards I make and its
just $1.20 to add it to his waste disposal ...

case closed
>> Good point.
>> I tracked down the hazardous material depot in my county. I am going
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com
Chuck Harris - 28 Nov 2005 22:17 GMT
> Actually I didnt need to take this step at all. The car repair shop
> (where they offer 15 minute oil changes)was more than happy to
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> So I will be taking it to him after ever 6 or 7 boards I make and its
> just $1.20 to add it to his waste disposal ...

Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
and you now have real toxic waste.

The folks that pick up this guy's waste are expecting certain contaminants
to be in the oil, but not FeCl.  If they find out about the FeCl,
they will not be able to recycle the oil.  They will have to send it, at
great cost, to a toxic waste disposal processor.

The FeCl will go directly to the bottom of his waste oil tank, and stay
there regardless of how many times the tank is emptied and refilled.  It
will surely etch a hole in the bottom of the tank.

-Chuck
John Popelish - 28 Nov 2005 23:42 GMT
> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> there regardless of how many times the tank is emptied and refilled.  It
> will surely etch a hole in the bottom of the tank.

However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is
almost completely inert in the environment.  Just neutralize it with
washing soda (sodium carbonate) till it quits fizzing.  Then all iron
and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
and copper carbonate mud.  Then you can flush it down the toilet.
John Larkin - 29 Nov 2005 00:03 GMT
>> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
>and copper carbonate mud.  Then you can flush it down the toilet.

The RatShack FeCl jugs used to (still do?) advise you to flush it down
the toilet after it's used. Sounds reasonable to me... a little iron,
a little copper.

John
Spehro Pefhany - 29 Nov 2005 00:22 GMT
>>> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
>>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>John

I think the copper compound in spent etchant can kill the 'good'
bacteria in a septic tank system, for those out of reach of municipal
water-treatment systems.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Signature

"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

Robert Latest - 29 Nov 2005 09:22 GMT
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:22:49 -0500,
 Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote
 in Msg. <jj7no11ngkid5jk7loe2fgpnohu6sa6na8@4ax.com>

> I think the copper compound in spent etchant can kill the 'good'
> bacteria in a septic tank system, for those out of reach of municipal
> water-treatment systems.

Any municipal water treatment system I've ever heard of uses a
"biological" cleaning stage using bacteria -- so it applies here as
well. Yes, and it is the copper solution (the Cu++ ions) that are toxic.
I don't know just how insoluble the compunds are that you create by
adding soda. But if you indeed create some "mud" on the bottom of the
container, with the rest of the solution not having any greenish or
bluish tint, it's a good start.

robert
Chuck Harris - 29 Nov 2005 00:57 GMT
>> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
> and copper carbonate mud.  Then you can flush it down the toilet.

At that point, the proper thing to do would be to filter through some
paper towels, and throw the solids into the trash.  Copper compounds are
extremely poisonous to fish and plants.

My whole point was that dumping the FeCl into a tank of used oil, just
because the stupid mechanic says you can is well... stupid.  You, and
the environment would be better off if you dumped the waste onto the
ground, and let it kill some weeds, or trees, that you don't like.

Flushing it down the toilet isn't a real good idea either, the FeCl does
a number on the cast iron pipe that lives in many plumbing systems.  Many
moons ago, I worked for a PCB manufacturing house.  They wouldn't allow
me to recycle their spent FeCl (the supplier would give me about $1/gallon
for spent FeCl, two carboys was worth more than I made in a day's wages)
They dumped the waste FeCl down the floor drain in the building, and then
had to bust up the floor every other year to replace the sewer pipe.

If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without
regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)

-Chuck
John Popelish - 29 Nov 2005 01:20 GMT
> If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without
> regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)

Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda.  It will do
nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud.
Jim Thompson - 29 Nov 2005 01:22 GMT
>> If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without
>> regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)
>
>Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda.  It will do
>nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud.

I can't remember the details now, but I vaguely recall some method to
rejuvenate used FeCl.

                                       ...Jim Thompson
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
           
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
John Popelish - 29 Nov 2005 01:46 GMT
>>>If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without
>>>regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I can't remember the details now, but I vaguely recall some method to
> rejuvenate used FeCl.

Add hydrochloric acid and oxygenate with air bubbles.  But it
eventually becomes cupric chloride (green instead of golden brown).
Andrew Tweddle - 29 Nov 2005 02:33 GMT
>>>If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without
>>>regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>                                         ...Jim Thompson
Add a little HCl to the mix and reuse!

Andrew
Rich Grise - 29 Nov 2005 02:19 GMT
>> If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without
>> regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)
>
> Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda.  It will do
> nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud.

Which sounds kinda like it'd be the same color as the bit of mud they
get lined with already. ;-P (ever disconnected the dump hose of a trailer
that's been sitting in a lot for 3 years? Eww!)

Cheers!
Rich
Chuck Harris - 29 Nov 2005 05:08 GMT
>> If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps,
>> without
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda.  It will do
> nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud.

Yes, you already said that, and if you will notice, I wrote FeCl, not iron
or copper carbonate.

-Chuck
John  Larkin - 29 Nov 2005 02:58 GMT
>At that point, the proper thing to do would be to filter through some
>paper towels, and throw the solids into the trash.  Copper compounds are
>extremely poisonous to fish and plants.

Roughly a ounce of copper, diluted by maybe a billion gallons of
water, won't harm anything. More copper is leached out of household
plumbing every day in any good-sized city than you can reasonably dump
from household pcb etching.

John
Chuck Harris - 29 Nov 2005 05:05 GMT
John Larkin wrote:

>>At that point, the proper thing to do would be to filter through some
>>paper towels, and throw the solids into the trash.  Copper compounds are
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> John

Of course, but if I routinely dump it, and you routinely dump it, and
someone else dumps their favorite stuff down the drain, sooner or later
it adds up.  Like you, I truly doubt that there are enough hobbiests that
use ferric chloride to etch PCBs so ever make a difference in the ecology
of the sewage treatment plant.

As an interesting side note,  WSSC, the local water and sewer company,
for a couple of years used ferric chloride as the flocculating agent
for their water purification process... and surprise!! after a couple
of years of doing that, the copper plumbed houses in their district started
getting pinhole leaks in long horizontal sections of the copper pipe.

Imagine!

-Chuck
Rich Grise - 29 Nov 2005 02:14 GMT
>> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
> and copper carbonate mud.  Then you can flush it down the toilet.

OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate
as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3?

I have a confession to make - I had enough of the RS stuff to be about
an inch deep in a 9" x 12" cake pan, and I just dumped it down the storm
drain, which leads to the ocean, so I feel so guilty I should probably
turn Liberal or something[1]. ;-P I had done one double-sided board, if
that makes any difference. And the only heat I used was to set the pan in
the driveway in the sun. :-)

Cheers!
Rich
[1] I'm a smoker, and when I'm, say, walking down the street and finish a
cigarette, if there isn't an ashtray or trash can handy I'll put the butt
in my pocket until I get to one. :-)
John Popelish - 29 Nov 2005 02:48 GMT
>>>Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
>>>in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate
> as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3?
(snip)

It works just fine.  But you might be surprised how much a quart of
ferric chloride will consume, and how much gas it gives off.  You can
but a big box of washing soda lots cheaper than the same amount of
neutralizing ability with bicarb.  You can also use calcium carbonate
(limestone).  With either sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate you
get salt (sodium chloride from the reaction.  With limestone you get
calcium chloride, the stuff that is sold to melt ice from the sidewalks.
John Popelish - 29 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT
>>>> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
>>>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> ferric chloride will consume, and how much gas it gives off.  You can
> but a big box of washing soda...

Make that,
buy a big box of washing soda...
Rich Grise - 29 Nov 2005 17:07 GMT
>> OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate
>> as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> get salt (sodium chloride from the reaction.  With limestone you get
> calcium chloride, the stuff that is sold to melt ice from the sidewalks.

Cool!

Thanks!
Rich
Jasen Betts - 30 Nov 2005 05:20 GMT
>> However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is
>> almost completely inert in the environment.  Just neutralize it with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate
> as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3?

It should do, only it'll fizz a bit more than with washing soda.

> I have a confession to make - I had enough of the RS stuff to be about
> an inch deep in a 9" x 12" cake pan, and I just dumped it down the storm
> drain, which leads to the ocean, so I feel so guilty I should probably
> turn Liberal or something[1]. ;-P I had done one double-sided board, if
> that makes any difference. And the only heat I used was to set the pan in
> the driveway in the sun. :-)

the ocean's got plenty of iron (from rusting ships etc) and heaps of chlorine
in it already, a little copper is unlikely to harm anything.

Bye.
  Jasen
Rich Grise - 30 Nov 2005 17:30 GMT
>>> However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is
>>> almost completely inert in the environment.  Just neutralize it with
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> the ocean's got plenty of iron (from rusting ships etc) and heaps of chlorine
> in it already, a little copper is unlikely to harm anything.

I still like the idea of neutralizing it, just so it's not corrosive or
toxic on the way down the pipe.

Plus which, it sounds kinda fun. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich
Barry Lennox - 24 Jan 2006 09:41 GMT
>> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron
>and copper carbonate mud.  Then you can flush it down the toilet.

I knew a small PCB house that used to mix used FeCl with ordinary
builders cement, and it did much the same.

Barry Lennox
samIam - 29 Nov 2005 21:46 GMT
> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> they will not be able to recycle the oil.  They will have to send it, at
> great cost, to a toxic waste disposal processor.

Chuck I read this and freaked out.
This afternoon I called up the Waste Treatment plant where this stuff is
headed (theres only two in the entire county one disposal and one
treatment plant... its a county of about 28k people or so ...)

They handle all sorts of chemicals including the stuff used to develope
pictures, etch boards, clean spills etc etc.

They were quite knowledgeable with FeCl ... at least they sounded like
they were (I am not a Chemical Engineer so sue me).

And as I pointed out the mechanic KNEW what FeCl was. When I pointed out
"hey be careful that stuff will eat through .." he replied "dont worry
I know what it is"

To get over the guilt trip youve got me on, I am going to HUG a tree on
my way home.
Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie - 29 Nov 2005 23:49 GMT
>> Wow!  That really is a bad idea!  FeCl is basically harmless to nature,
>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork,
>> and you now have real toxic waste.
...
> Chuck I read this and freaked out.
> This afternoon I called up the Waste Treatment plant where this stuff is
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "hey be careful that stuff will eat through .." he replied "dont worry
> I know what it is"

It only makes sense - they get paid for the recycled oil, they have to
pay to have the other poisons disposed of.

> To get over the guilt trip youve got me on, I am going to HUG a tree on
> my way home.

Do better than that - if you see any litter along the way, pick it up and
put it in the bin. :-)

Cheers!
Rich
private - 20 Feb 2006 10:49 GMT
"I'd like to add a suggestion about how to dispose of used etching
solution. Before you pour it in to the sink, pour it in a plastic tank
and drop there scrap of old steel nails, screws, small, nuts, bolts,
etc., and let it stay for a few days. It will turn the hazardous mix of
copper chloride and Ferric Chloride (FeCl3) into copper powder (sludge)
that settles on the bottom and a non-etching and non-corrosive solution
of FeCl2. It will save from corrosion, destruction and costly
replacement in the future your cast iron drain pipes and it will save
from killing bacteria in the septic tank or in sewer treatment plant.
They are very sensitive to copper chloride and Ferric Chloride. A
current law prohibits disposal of those chemicals in the sewer. For best
yet treatment, after separation of solution of FeCl2, mix it with
solution of soda (Na2CO3 used as detergent) in a flat tray lined with
plastic film. It will turn FeCl2 into Fe(CO3) (insoluble rusty mud) and
NaCl (harmless cooking salt). After drying outdoor whole dry rusty
powder could be wrapped in plastic film and disposed of in the normal
trash container." [From http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm]

All Rights Reserved

> Actually I didnt need to take this step at all. The car repair shop
> (where they offer 15 minute oil changes)was more than happy to
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com
Walter Harley - 22 Nov 2005 02:05 GMT
> [...]
> Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or
> one of the other cheapie board houses.

I've been using AP Circuits for my manufacturing (quantities ~100), but for
one-offs they're pretty pricey.  If I know I need just one of something, I
generally use Olimex instead.  Olimex's quality is not quite as nice but the
price is a tiny fraction.  (Unfortunately, they have different standard
drill racks and different minimum trace sizes, so it's inefficient to proto
with Olimex and then manufacture with AP.)
John  Larkin - 22 Nov 2005 04:05 GMT
>> [...]
>> Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>drill racks and different minimum trace sizes, so it's inefficient to proto
>with Olimex and then manufacture with AP.)

AP's "proto one" service gets you 4 to 6 small boards for something
like $60, as I recall. No solder mask or silk, only sheared to size,
but that's just like doing it at home. I've done dozens of different
boards, 8/8 design rules, and they've been perfect so far.

What's Olimex's minimum lot charge for a 2-side plated board?

John
Walter Harley - 22 Nov 2005 05:53 GMT
> [...]
> AP's "proto one" service gets you 4 to 6 small boards for something
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What's Olimex's minimum lot charge for a 2-side plated board?

Doh!  My mistake.  My production vendor is Advanced Circuits, not AP
Circuits.  Yes, I see that AP Circuits advertises "Two 2-layer PCBs for
under $50.00" (for a 1.5" x 1.5" board, their minimum size); a good deal.

Olimex's deal is that you get one 100mm x 160mm board for about $40 (full
featured: double-sided, silk-screen, solder mask, plated-through holes),
including shipping.  The nice thing is, if your design is smaller, they'll
panelize and cut for free - so for instance, I recently got 25 very small
boards for $40.  However, it takes a couple of weeks to get the PCB (in the
USA, anyhow), because it ships air mail from Bulgaria.  You can pay (a lot)
more for faster shipping.
John  Larkin - 22 Nov 2005 06:23 GMT
>> [...]
>> AP's "proto one" service gets you 4 to 6 small boards for something
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>USA, anyhow), because it ships air mail from Bulgaria.  You can pay (a lot)
>more for faster shipping.

Well, the AP Circuits boards are shipped from some weird foreign
country, too. They ship by pack moose, I think.

John
Chuck Harris - 22 Nov 2005 13:57 GMT
>>[...]
>>Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> drill racks and different minimum trace sizes, so it's inefficient to proto
> with Olimex and then manufacture with AP.)

I am not a hobbiest, but I do lots of small (prototype) runs of PCB's.

I was using Olimex for a while, but they are no longer on my list of
approved vendors.  I got 3 runs of different boards in a row that had hair
line breaks in traces.  When I went to them for some resolution (to a problem
of their making), their solution was for me to ship the bad boards back to them,
and they would ship me some new boards... with me paying international shipping
all 3 ways, and them waiting for the bad boards to arrive before starting the
run of replacement boards.  Since I use courier shipping to speed things up
a bit, that would be $180 in shipping costs, and 3 weeks worth of time.

Other problems with Olimex are: their nonstandard tool rack (you have to figure
drill sizes to be the preplating size); wide variability of hole plating
thickness; holes that were clogged with copper plated fiberglass swarf;
misalignment of drill holes and pads; panelized boards that are sheared, so they
have rough fiberglass edges; use of the copper board outline to gage their
shearing, leaving 1/2 of the copper outline as part of the board, so your boards
are always oversized, and have a conductive trace around the outside edges;
minimum trace size of 8 mil, (if you try to use 8 mil traces, you will find
them sometimes as small as 5 mil in size); and frequent overetching of the
board.  Plus, they will only stock 1 oz, 1/16th inch, FR4.  If you need something
else, tough!

I am done with foreign suppliers!  But I am still looking for a good domestic
supplier.  I sure wish ProtoCircuits was still in town. Their leaving
started me on this odyssey of pain.

-Chuck
Tim Shoppa - 21 Nov 2005 18:57 GMT
> In the past I have been using the toner transfer
> iron on technique. The best I have gotten is 75-80%
> of the board done ... the remaining
> 20 - 30% is rework for missing/broken traces etc.

Wow, that's pretty bad.

When I tried the iron-on method, I had to go back and
fix up a couple of traces but nowhere near 20-30% of em.

> Someone hinted at photo transfer

Indeed, direct positive PCB's are preferable.  But even then you really
do have to check each and every trace because it's a tricky process.

> How about double sided boards?

For the past 5 years I've been using www.expresspcb.com for all my
stuff and had 100% success for single and double-sided stuff.
Single-sided, double-sided, ridiculously high lead pitch surface mount
stuff, I ain't ever gonna go back to etching this stuff myself.

Tim.
JeffM - 21 Nov 2005 21:25 GMT
>>In the past I have been using the toner transfer
>>iron on technique. The best I have gotten is 75-80%
>> samIam
>
> Wow, that's pretty bad.
> Tim Shoppa

Amen.
Between each stage of the process is a step called INSPECTION.
Obviously, the OP is skipping this.

The first responder (Burridge) mentioned a pen.
When I did it, I used fingernail polish for touch-ups
and cleaned the board with acetone at the end.
.
.
>For the past 5 years I've been using www.expresspcb.com...
>I ain't ever gonna go back to etching this stuff myself.

Yeah.
If this is just for the hands-on experience, that's one thing.
Not handing this off to the pros as early as possible
is just nuts these days.
samIam - 22 Nov 2005 21:15 GMT
> When I tried the iron-on method, I had to go back and
> fix up a couple of traces but nowhere near 20-30% of em.

lol
Maybe its a bit of an exaggeration but I would wager at LEAST
15% of the board' traces needed repair

My board size was 4x6

I learned a lesson with the last board, from now on (for hobby
boards) I use 15-20 mil traces and leave 50-75mil space between
trace lines ... in case I have to go over it with an etch resist
or permanent marker.

I am aiming to get it as near perfect when it etches so I dont
have to do fixes afterwards.

We will see with my next design 6502sbc thats 8x8 in size and
double sided ... tons of vias ...
ehsjr - 22 Nov 2005 00:56 GMT
> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> How about double sided boards?
> Thanks

You should be able to do *much* better using the iron on method,
per the following url:
http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm

Ed
Erik Walthinsen - 22 Nov 2005 07:14 GMT
> What has worked for you guys in the past?
I've been using Pulsar film, available from Digikey (182-1003-ND and
182-1021-ND) to do a dozen or so boards so far, including some
fine-pitch SMT designs, though all single-sided.

The process is fairly straightforward, but has taken me a lot of
experimentation and frustration to get it right.  As a result I'm going
to write up what I've learned one of these days soon, so others don't
have to figure the same stuff out the hard way.  Here's the quick
version, off the top of my head, with as much detail as I can in this
format:

0) Design your board carefully, according to a number of rules that I
still need to codify.  Some easy ones: use copper pours wherever
possible to remove less copper; make sure you set your trace/gap numbers
to a comfortable level, I haven't gone below 10mil/10mil yet though I
easily could; set the pad annulus to 15+mil so you have some drilling
slop; don't let the copper pour or other traces get too close to the
*inside* of any SMT chip pads, you can't wick that stuff away.

1) *Laser* print the *positive* artwork onto the transfer paper, cut to
size and taped (Avery laser label bits) to a piece of backing paper
(both to feed into the laser, and for positioning).

2) Thoroughly rough up (Scotchbrite pad / steel wool) every sq. mm of
the board, then wash very carefully, possibly using acetone as the last
step (to remove oils *and* copper dust).  Do not touch the copper after
this step.

3) Laminate/iron the artwork to the board.  Pulsar resells a GBC
laminator that has both high heat and pressure, and will accept up to
0.03125" boards (not 0.0625", big deal, IMO) for ~$50.

4) Dump the board paper-side up onto the *surface* of a bowl of water
and wait (tick tock) for the paper to literally fall off (takes longer,
but much more consistent results, don't rush this step).

5) Carefully wash everything off the toner surface, and make sure there
are no oils left either.

INSPECTION: if there are any missing areas, clean the copper off with
acetone, go all the way back to step 2 and start over.  DO NOT SKIP ANY
OF STEP 2, do it all over again.

6) Laminate/iron the green film onto the board, let cool, and carefully
peel back the plastic.

INSPECTION: if the film wrinkled and left visible toner on the board, or
if any toner is visible on the peeled off plastic, go back to step 2 and
start over, as per previous inspection step.

7) Grab some gloves, a sponge (combo glove+sponge works great for me),
and a few ounces of FeCl or equivalent.  Get some FeCl on the tip of the
sponge, and lightly *scrub* the board all over until you can see all the
way through the copper-free areas when held against a light.

8) Thoroughly clean the film and toner off with acetone, scrub it down
with steel wool, and clean it again.  Cleaning is your friend.

9) Dump the board in some Liquid Tin (MG Chemicals 421-500ml) for
5-10min.  When removing the board from the liquid tin, do not touch the
copper+tin surface until you've washed it off and let it sit for a
minute.  I kept getting fingerprints on the tin and finally realized it
came from *above*, not underneath the plating.  The stuff is soft.  It's
also extremely nasty stuff, you *MUST* take even small amounts to a
disposal site. MG says even 50ml diluted into 5 gallons of water is too
nasty to dump down the drain.  You can use extremely fine-grade steel
wool, *very* lightly, to clean up the surface a little bit, but as soon
as it shows a little copper tint to it, you're done.  Very nice color
effect though.

10) Use appropriate drill bits, such as the re-ground ones you can get
cheap in sets of 25.  Only problem is that there no guarantee of size
selection with those.  This would be a good time to thank yourself for
cranking up the pad annulus and leaving yourself some room to mess up.

11) SMT components can be soldered by hand, but I've had far better luck
using solder paste and a toaster oven.  Digikey has it (KE1507-ND) but
as a rather high price ($42 for 35g), and you'll need to find a syringe
tip to use, the smaller the better.  I'm still getting a feel for
exactly how much paste to use for different parts, and the
time/temperature constant of my toaster oven is abysmal, so the process
is still evolving, but it's worked fairly well so far.

I've taken a few closeup pics of some of my most recent boards, both
good and bad:

http://www.omegacs.net/misc/pcbs/

It's not in a decent gallery because the software I was using didn't put
up with an upgrade and I haven't figured out what's broken about it yet.

> How about double sided boards?
I haven't done any yet, but I plan on doing some attempts eventually.
The process would be to put the toner and film on one side, drill 3+
reference holes, then transfer the other side.  The problem may be what
the laminator will do to the first side when going through the second
time.  It may be necessary to use even more extra dimensions on the PCB
and transfer films and carefully tack the two pieces of transfer paper
down through the drilling process, and laminate the two sides at the
same time.

The through-hole plating problem is another one I need to research.
Pulsar recommended going to International Eyelets (ask for a catalog,
you get it within a few days) who make nothing but "PCB eyelets"
designed to do through-holes.  They're going to be noticably bigger than
your average via, but comparable to a normal through-hole component pad.
   Absolute smallest one their catalog shows a 0.030" hole diameter,
0.020" finished hole, with a 0.046" flange/pad.  That's actually not too
bad.  I'm going to get some trail stuff pretty soon and see what happens.
samIam - 22 Nov 2005 21:32 GMT
> 11) SMT components can be soldered by hand, but I've had far better luck
> using solder paste and a toaster oven.  Digikey has it (KE1507-ND) but
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> http://www.omegacs.net/misc/pcbs/

Thats pretty impressive ... I thought SMT were off use for hobby work
without some really expensive oven/manufacturing equiptment.

Again, NICE work

> I haven't done any yet, but I plan on doing some attempts eventually.
> The process would be to put the toner and film on one side, drill 3+
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> down through the drilling process, and laminate the two sides at the
> same time.

Heres my second to last attempt ... its been redesigned since
then and will be placed on a .062 FR4 copper board.

http://www.geocities.com/asa386/My6502Sbc_Anubis/pcb_manufacture/

With vias I just drill holes ... place a small wire on one end, solder,
solder other end ... snip off the remainder

I write low level code for a living ... so this is just hobby work
Joel Kolstad - 22 Nov 2005 23:48 GMT
> Thats pretty impressive ... I thought SMT were off use for hobby work
> without some really expensive oven/manufacturing equiptment.

Generally speaking, SMT parts are actually faster to use than leaded parts.
Where I've worked in the past, the production workers preferred the SMT
boards!

Those PCB pictures the guy posted are nice... kinda reminiscent of what milled
boards look like!
:-) - 23 Nov 2005 05:06 GMT
>> 11) SMT components can be soldered by hand, but I've had far better
>> luck using solder paste and a toaster oven.  Digikey has it
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Again, NICE work

Nice !  That was one of my goal, a xilinx XC95xxx, now I know it's
possible to do :-)
Erik Walthinsen - 23 Nov 2005 19:04 GMT
:-) wrote:
> Nice !  That was one of my goal, a xilinx XC95xxx, now I know it's
> possible to do :-)

For some reason that one didn't work so well.  Some kind of scum left on
the outside of a few rows of the pins, and I didn't restrict the copper
pour underneath, so there's an entire row of pins all bridged to each
other under the chip.  I'll  be carefully re-doing that one, as well as
tweaking the Eagle printout by 1/128 of an inch (0.8%) to correct for
the undersized artwork.  The row of 22 pins causes the board to curve
quite badly, so I had to break them up and file off a gap between groups
of pins for this particular board.  Besides, there are several broken
traces ;-(
:-) - 23 Nov 2005 22:26 GMT
> :-) wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> of pins for this particular board.  Besides, there are several broken
> traces ;-(

You righ I didn't check this picture in details .
To bad for this board, yours others ones were good !

Here some questions form a noob side ;-)
(who wish to learn stuff before making to much errors )
I guess you used to much paste for the back.
Is it true that when you oven board chips place themself correctly over
traces ?
Might not work I guess if to much paste is used and if it flood few
traces togedther...

why do you have broken traces, is it because of heating in the oven ?
Expension and contraction of copper traces?

A smily noob
:-)
Erik Walthinsen - 23 Nov 2005 23:53 GMT
:-) wrote:
> Here some questions form a noob side ;-)
> (who wish to learn stuff before making to much errors )
> I guess you used to much paste for the back.
Yeah, it's interesting trying to get the right amount on the SSOP/QFP
packages.  I have what's probably too big a needle to dispense, so I've
been using a dental pick to shove the paste around and try to get a
consistent amount.

> Is it true that when you oven board chips place themself correctly over
> traces?
I haven't seen any chips move, but it would surprise me if they didn't
move a little.  Then again you can see that the CPLD didn't center
itself very well.  I've definitely seen 1206 parts shuffle around a
little, probably as the solder melts from one side to the other.

> Might not work I guess if to much paste is used and if it flood few
> traces togedther...
Yeah, that's where the cleanup comes in.  Small-tip temp-controlled
iron, very small solder wick, dental pick, and an acoustic continuity
checker with stickpins for probes.  Oh, and lots of patience.

> why do you have broken traces, is it because of heating in the oven ?
> Expension and contraction of copper traces?
No, something went wrong in the transfer process and I foolishly figured
it wasn't a big enough problem.  Issues like that seem to stem from a
few causes:

- not a consistent enough scratching up of the board before laminating
- fingerprints etc. at various stages
- bits of dust on the board between the toner and the copper
- impatient removal of the backing paper from the toner while soaking
:-) - 24 Nov 2005 08:47 GMT
Thanks :-)

Another question,

Are you putting something on you board after it is finished,
vanish of some kind ?

:-)

> :-) wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> - bits of dust on the board between the toner and the copper
> - impatient removal of the backing paper from the toner while soaking
Erik Walthinsen - 24 Nov 2005 21:57 GMT
:-) wrote:
> Are you putting something on you board after it is finished,
> vanish of some kind ?

Nope, just the Liquid Tin.  Not sure I want to go the route of putting
paint on the board that I'll just have to smell as it burns off later...
 These are all prototyping boards anyway, I'll be using a board house
to do later consolidated boards.
Deefoo - 24 Nov 2005 09:21 GMT
> 1) *Laser* print the *positive* artwork onto the transfer paper, cut to
> size and taped (Avery laser label bits) to a piece of backing paper
> (both to feed into the laser, and for positioning).

Before you laser print anything definite do a test print! My experience with
(cheapish, I admit, Lexmark & Minolta) laser printers is that they do not
print 1:1 in both directions whereas my inkjet does.

--DF
Erik Walthinsen - 24 Nov 2005 21:55 GMT
> Before you laser print anything definite do a test print! My experience with
> (cheapish, I admit, Lexmark & Minolta) laser printers is that they do not
> print 1:1 in both directions whereas my inkjet does.

Yup.  I found that the laser I'm using (NEC Superscript 1400, retired
from office use due to feed problems) is 0.8% off horizontal, and I
haven't calibrated it for vertical yet.  Makes a row of 20 pins across
not quite fit, though you can cheat by snapping them in a few places and
filing down period gaps.
Hal Murray - 25 Nov 2005 07:01 GMT
>> Before you laser print anything definite do a test print! My experience with
>> (cheapish, I admit, Lexmark & Minolta) laser printers is that they do not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>not quite fit, though you can cheat by snapping them in a few places and
>filing down period gaps.

If you are working with postscript, it's reasonably easy to put
a wrapper around your print file that fixes up the scale.  I'll fish
out the hack I've used if anybody needs it.

Signature

The suespammers.org mail server is located in California.  So are all my
other mailboxes.  Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited
commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses.
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.

Erik Walthinsen - 26 Nov 2005 03:14 GMT
> If you are working with postscript, it's reasonably easy to put
> a wrapper around your print file that fixes up the scale.  I'll fish
> out the hack I've used if anybody needs it.

Eagle has the X and Y scale in the print dialog, I just have to do some
larger-scale test prints and measurements.  Wonder if I can print out a
reference rectangle bigger than the 100x80mm limit of the free version,
as long as it's e.g. the tDocu layer and not top or bottom...
Simon Peacock - 22 Nov 2005 10:14 GMT
One thing to note when making your own PCB's.. be careful not to mix
chemicals.. some cleaners can react with the chemicals used to produce some
rather hasty gasses... A friend of mine spent two nights in hospital doing
this.

I think the best bet is to use a proto house.. if they can do a panel it can
be cheap... for me it was AU $270 for 3 x A4 worth of PCB's .. as much as
you can fit on a single A4 sheet and 3 of them. No fuss, no mess, no
chemicals or EPA requirements.

Simon

> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> How about double sided boards?
> Thanks
Deefoo - 22 Nov 2005 11:30 GMT
> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> How about double sided boards?
> Thanks

I still make some myself the classic photographic way, 100% success, takes
me about 15 minutes with fresh, well heated etching liquid (the dirty yellow
one). There are many good tutorials to be found on the web. The hardest
part, I find, is cutting the board and drilling the holes in the right
place.

When I was a kid I used to use an etch-resistant ink pen (and a nail and
hamer for the holes, in fact I did the holes first) but fine-pitched boards
are not easy this way. I remember routing traces in between ic pins (I then
had a small electric drill). The pen was rather annoying since you had to
press the tip to get the ink out and often this resulted is large blobs on
the board.

--DF
Mike Harrison - 22 Nov 2005 12:37 GMT
>> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
>> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>one). There are many good tutorials to be found on the web. The hardest
>part, I find, is cutting the board
Small guillotine

>and drilling the holes in the right
>place.

Make sure pad patterns have holes in the middle to act as centre marks.

Lots of info on making good homebrew pcbs : www.electricstuff.co.uk/pcbs.html
Chuck Harris - 22 Nov 2005 14:05 GMT
>>>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
>>>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Make sure pad patterns have holes in the middle to act as centre marks.

Nah, tell the PCB software to leave the holes out of the pads, and then
when you etch, you will leave behind a nice little hole in the copper
pad where your drill bit goes.  It makes drilling a snap.

-Chuck
Mike Harrison - 22 Nov 2005 15:16 GMT
>>>>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
>>>>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>-Chuck

..erm that's exactly what I was saying.... you NEED holes in the pads to be able to drill them
sensibly
Chuck Harris - 22 Nov 2005 15:53 GMT
>>>>and drilling the holes in the right
>>>>place.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> ..erm that's exactly what I was saying.... you NEED holes in the pads to be able to drill them
> sensibly

Oops!  I saw "centre marks" and thought center marks (eg. cross hairs).

Sorry!

-Chuck
Andy - 22 Nov 2005 13:59 GMT
Andy comments:

  I used fingernail polish as etch resist for small jobs that didn't
need fine work and it worked great.  It can be removed with
nail polish remover.   I never tried etch resist pens because
I didn't trust them.....

   On the ground plane side, I needed to clear the areas around
the holes and I used a drill bit with some tape around the shank
which I rotated by hand to clear it out.  The drill bit would center
easily in the hole and had a diameter larger than the clearance I
wanted so that I could stop when it was right.....

   This works great, as long as one doesn't need  tiny tracks....

                               Andy

PS  I prefer Ferric Chloride for etching.  I never was happy with
      Ammonium Perchloride (or whatever the other stuff was ).
       Keep the solution warm, and jiggle the board occasionally with
       the side to be etched facing down......
ludo - 24 Nov 2005 23:59 GMT
[snip]

> When I was a kid I used to use an etch-resistant ink pen (and a nail and
> hamer for the holes, in fact I did the holes first) but fine-pitched
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> --DF

Something worth trying as alternative to photoresist pens that leave blobs
like this: Staedtler Lumocolor.
Nice to touch up the bits where the positive resist or the toner transfer
didn't stick.
In my experience the black one is more resistant to FeCl than the
(somewhat) ancient Dalo photoresist pen I have here (with the blob habit.)
The red one is apparently even better. They are available in 4 tip sizes
too. (Google is good) I've tried some other overhead marker/permanent
marker type pens that didn't work well at all.

When drilling/cutting the board, use a respirator, like when
spraypainting. Saves you from waking up with an evil splitting head the
next day. One more reason to go with SMT as far as possible. Less
drilling.

L
Jasen Betts - 25 Nov 2005 18:51 GMT
["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.cad.]

> [snip]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> too. (Google is good) I've tried some other overhead marker/permanent
> marker type pens that didn't work well at all.

Lumocolor (I assume you mean the permanent type not the dry erase)
are sometimes sold as "cdrom pens".   OHP pens are hard to find, there's
not much market for them any more.

Bye.
  Jasen
Jim Thompson - 22 Nov 2005 15:25 GMT
>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>How about double sided boards?
>Thanks

About a year ago I bought a Roland SX-8 (vinyl) sign-cutter for some
Scout activity signs AND as stencils for glass etching (via sand
blaster).

Works just ducky for both of those applications, but I'm tempted to
try it as stick-on resist.

Anyone tried such a scheme?

                                       ...Jim Thompson
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
           
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Chuck Harris - 22 Nov 2005 16:03 GMT
> About a year ago I bought a Roland SX-8 (vinyl) sign-cutter for some
> Scout activity signs AND as stencils for glass etching (via sand
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>                                         ...Jim Thompson

Yes, and no.  I use an IBC-912 Boardmaker, which is a PCB mill.  It
engraves an outline around the traces to isolate them from the rest
of the ground plane.

You would be doing much the same thing with your Roland, except you
would be peeling away the parts you didn't want to etch.  The problem
is in your PCB cad package.  They generally are based on the photoplot
plan for making boards, that is that traces and pads are separate
entities, and multiple exposures are still black.  What will happen,
is when you plot onto your Roland, first will come an outline of all
of the traces, and next will come an outline of all of the pads.  The
pads will chop off the ends of the traces, and you will have a stencil
that is nothing but tiny pieces.

What you need is a program that acts like a photoplotter, and puts the
ultimate silouette image into memory, and then creates the vectors that
are necessary to make the true outline.  There is a program like that
available on MIT's website for the "how to make almost anything" course
that the university offers.  It is even targeted to the Roland plotter.
The author is a real abrasive peacenik character, but his software is
top notch.

Alternatively, Christian Zinner has a program called PlatinCNC which
does the same job (only much much better).  His program is geared towards
the CNC routed PCB's, like my IBC makes.  I have been using it for quite
awhile now, and it is a complete and total marvel!  He has it priced for
under $200 last I looked.

-Chuck
Jim Thompson - 22 Nov 2005 16:30 GMT
>> About a year ago I bought a Roland SX-8 (vinyl) sign-cutter for some
>> Scout activity signs AND as stencils for glass etching (via sand
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>-Chuck

The Roland came with a program called Stika that can do outlines.
I've only used it on BMP's, but maybe I can make it all play through
Universal Document Converter.

Plus ExpressPCB can be cajoled into printing "solids", making
outlining much easier.

I have an advantage... my sight in inadequate to do less than 50mil
traces ;-)

                                       ...Jim Thompson
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
           
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.
petrus bitbyter - 22 Nov 2005 19:11 GMT
> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> How about double sided boards?
> Thanks

IMHO there is not such a method as the "best" hobby DIY. Both method and
result depends highly on the experience and tools available. I ever started
using nail polish and nitric acid. Did several types of photografic methods
and also tried out toner transfer. The latter worked well as long as I had
access to an HP Laserjet 5000. This one put enough toner on the sheet to
work as an etch resist. Other laserprinters I tried, including the Laserjet
4Si, did not. Now I'm back at the photo method using two overlayed
transparancies for the positive. The best site on the net I'm aware of is:
http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/pcbs.html
(Almost) all you need to know about etching PCBs at home.

petrus bitbyter
Anton Erasmus - 22 Nov 2005 21:10 GMT
>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>How about double sided boards?
>Thanks

I have found that using pre-clad boards with positive resist work
quite well. With the spray on positive resist, it is difficult to get
a nice even coating without any bubbles and dust.
http://www.bungard.com/    have very good quality pre-sensitised
PCBs. (Both single and double sided with a long shelve life)
Print the layout on a transparency using an inkjet printer. Clamp
the transparency against the PCB (photo resist) side with a piece
of transparent glass. Expose in sunlight for about 45 seconds.
(Experiment a bit). Develop PCB, and etch. I have had very good
results with even 10mil tracks and 10 mil spacing.
When doing double sided, one must make very sure of the alignment of
the 2 sides.

Regards
 Anton Erasmus
harryhbrown@earthlink.net - 17 Dec 2005 12:19 GMT
To apply the positive resist evenly on boards:

1. You need a variable speed quarter inch drill with a sanding
attachment, double sided masking tape and a cardboard box (and
posttive resist)

2. Poke a hole in the cardboard box( large enough so that your board
fits into the box not hitting the sides) so that the drill end sticks
through.

3. Attach the sanding attachment to the drill.

4, Tape your pc board tape the board using double sided masking tape
to a sanding attachment. Center (balance)  it well.

5. Pour a "small" amount of the positive resist on the board. You'll
have to experiment to find the correct amount.

6. Place a cover over the open end of the box so that when you spin
the board (in the next step) the excess positive resist will not fly
out and coat unwanted objects (you among other things).

7 Slowly spin the board so that cetrifical force will spread the
resist over the board. You'll have to stop a few times to check this.

Lots of luck.

Harry
==================

>>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
>>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>Regards
>  Anton Erasmus
Chuck Harris - 17 Dec 2005 16:15 GMT
> To apply the positive resist evenly on boards:
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Lots of luck.

I guess that's a way, but in industry, we did it a little differently.
We used a thin rectangular S.S. "bucket" that was just slightly larger
than the board we were coating, and dipped the board into the bucket
vertically, then after removing it, we let it hang to drip dry.  This
was all done under yellow lights to keep from exposing the resist.

I did thousands of boards that way, and never had any coating thickness
problems.

-Chuck
James T. White - 17 Dec 2005 21:28 GMT
> I guess that's a way, but in industry, we did it a little differently.
> We used a thin rectangular S.S. "bucket" that was just slightly larger
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I did thousands of boards that way, and never had any coating thickness
> problems.

I've used the "dip method" as a hobyist, too.  Not having a made to size
container usually meant finding something and pouring in more liquid
resist
in than I needed.  When I was done, I had to decide if I wanted to risk
contaminating the resist still in the bottle with that that was in the
tray.  For
a PCB shop the answer is simple, throw it out.  For for the hobyist that
usually means saving it.  I never had problems, but was always concerned
that eventually I would get dust/lint from the air in it or have
problems
with viscosity since some evaporation is unavoidable.

Signature

James T. White

Chuck Harris - 17 Dec 2005 23:31 GMT
>> I guess that's a way, but in industry, we did it a little differently.
>> We used a thin rectangular S.S. "bucket" that was just slightly larger
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> container usually meant finding something and pouring in more liquid
> resist

Our container was made using a bending brake, and some sheet stainless steel.
You could easily make one using some pieces of plexiglass, and a little
glue.

> in than I needed.  When I was done, I had to decide if I wanted to risk
> contaminating the resist still in the bottle with that that was in the
> tray.  For
> a PCB shop the answer is simple, throw it out.

 I don't recall ever actually dumping out the resist.  We just kept
adding more KPR to the pot.  It was quite an ugly mess what with the drips
drooling down the sides, turning brown and congealing.  The pot had a simple
cover (also bent up with the brake) that we put over its top when it wasn't
in use.

  For for the hobyist that
> usually means saving it.  I never had problems, but was always concerned
> that eventually I would get dust/lint from the air in it or have
> problems
> with viscosity since some evaporation is unavoidable.

Our environment wasn't exactly clean, being as we were in an open room just
off of the machine shop.  I don't recall dust being much of a problem.

We used the same KPR pot to make PCB's, brass shimstock painting stencils,
and ID tags for equipment.

-Chuck
Anton Erasmus - 22 Dec 2005 13:17 GMT
>>> I guess that's a way, but in industry, we did it a little differently.
>>> We used a thin rectangular S.S. "bucket" that was just slightly larger
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>We used the same KPR pot to make PCB's, brass shimstock painting stencils,
>and ID tags for equipment.

It is of course possible to get a nice even coating as a hobbiest, but
unless one does this quite often, the effort saved by using pre-coated
boards are immense. The boards from bungard also comes with a
protective sheet which protects the coating from light and mechanical
damage. One can saw, drill, punch, file and basically go bananas
without damaging the coating.  It is difficult to remove this
protective sheet accidentaly, but it is quite easy to remove on
purpose. Having good quality pre-coated boards also removes one more
variable. When starting out it is often good to have as few as
possible variables to play with.
Are there any other manufacturers that provide pre-coated PCBs, which
can be ordered via the internet ?

Regards
 Anton Erasmus
Chuck Harris - 22 Dec 2005 14:54 GMT
> Are there any other manufacturers that provide pre-coated PCBs, which
> can be ordered via the internet ?
>
> Regards
>   Anton Erasmus

Sure,

Go to http://WWW.digikey.com, or http://www.mouser.com.  They each sell
precoated PCB's

-Chuck
Rich, Under the Affluence - 23 Nov 2005 22:49 GMT
> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> What gives the best results on a fairly consistent basis?
> How about double sided boards?

I've only done this once, a thousand years or so ago, but I made my
originals on plastic with tape and a little bit of india ink. They
were 2X. I took them to a photo shop and got positives, six-up,
registered for double-sided. I stapled the negatives together, got
a piece of photosensitive board at Radio Shack, slid the board
between the negatives, and exposed it to the sun for about a half-
hour on each side. I don't remember what the next step was -
developing the resist and washing it, or some such, but then I
etched it in a cake pan with about an inch (2.5 cm) of Ferric
Chloride solution (also from RS - in their etch kit -- Hey! I
said it was a long time ago!), and did get a little bit of
undercutting, and drilling it right was very, very interesting,
but it did work. :-) (the product died on the vine, however. )-; )

Good Luck!
Rich
roma - 26 Nov 2005 06:38 GMT
> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique.
> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> How about double sided boards?
> Thanks

I still get 99% success with the transfer method .
I have a HP 1210 laser that I set at 1200 for printing .
The secret is in the paper to use and the copper clad cleaning method .
A ) Get the following photo paper from "STAPLES" Staples brand of photo
paper , 30 sheets for $14 Canadian , stock # 18103 02238 , red package "for
inkjet printers" NO SUBSTITUTE .

B )Get a small bottle of cream cleaner used for glass- ceramic cooktop
"cerama Bryte " , "Cook Top " or similar , a bit pricy but worth it.
USE  a few drops and do a good cleaning of the copper board a paper towell
then rinse under the hot water tap then dry with paper tower . DO NOT TOUCH
THE SURFACE WITH FINGERS .
Then proceed with the iron transfer take all the time needed .
Soak copper plate in soapy water in sink and after a few minutes scrub
first paper layer with fingers and thum soak some more then test for
further paper scrubbing and ensure no paper residue is visible .

Works good for me .
Roma
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