Which is the best hobby do-it-yourself method for making PCB's?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
samIam - 21 Nov 2005 17:14 GMT In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining 20 - 30% is rework for missing/broken traces etc.
I am just wondering what is the best hobby do-it-yourself method?
Someone hinted at photo transfer
What has worked for you guys in the past? What gives the best results on a fairly consistent basis? How about double sided boards? Thanks
Paul Burridge - 21 Nov 2005 16:48 GMT Simplest and cheapest way is copper clad board, ferric chloride, acetone, metal polish and a permanent, black felt pen. 1. Thoroughly clean the copper cladding with wadding metal polish and buff-up to high shine. 2. Draw out the tracks where you want them with the felt pen. 3. Allow the ink to dry thoroughly in a warm atmosphere. 4. Heat the ferric chloride solution in a shallow plastic tray to around 50'C. 5. Drop the board into the solution and agitate until unwanted areas of copper are dissolved. 6. Remove, wash in warm water, dry. 7. Wash off the black marker traces with acetone and repeat step 1 wrt to the metal polish. 8. After soldering in components, lacquer the board (optional).
 Signature
"What is now proved was once only imagin'd" - William Blake
Tim Wescott - 21 Nov 2005 18:02 GMT > In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. > The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How about double sided boards? > Thanks I think I've etched one board, ever. After that experience I just use breadboards from vector or rat-shack, or I dead-bug things on an unetched copper groundplane. If I feel a need for an "etched" board I slice islands out of the copper with an x-acto knife and surface-mount through-hole components onto the pads (think of dead bugging with pads).
If I really needed accuracy I'd make the circuit on Eagle and send it out to http://www.pcbexpress.com or another fast-turn house. If you want to be trapped by proprietary software you could use http://www.expresspcb.com. Both of these latter methods, incidentally, work extremely well if you are being paid by the hour -- they can do it much cheaper than you can unless you're getting starvation wages.
The ARRL Handbook covers all of these methods.
 Signature Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com
John Larkin - 21 Nov 2005 18:22 GMT >In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. >The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >How about double sided boards? >Thanks Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or one of the other cheapie board houses.
John
Joerg - 21 Nov 2005 21:23 GMT Hello John,
> Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or > one of the other cheapie board houses. You can etch stuff yourself (I did as a kid) with 100% success rate but not plate through. I made some really fine pitch 'circuit board transformers' that way since the commercial ones cost way too much.
An additional issue with that is what to do with all the chemicals afterwards. Some people store that forever and then one day the container rusts out or the cat knocks it over.
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com
samIam - 22 Nov 2005 21:09 GMT > An additional issue with that is what to do with all the chemicals > afterwards. Some people store that forever and then one day the > container rusts out or the cat knocks it over. Good point. I tracked down the hazardous material depot in my county. I am going to visit them some time next week to "unload" some used ferric chloride
Once I know how much it costs and how often I can bring it to them, Ill get serious about manufacturing test boards I design at home.
Joerg - 24 Nov 2005 22:44 GMT Hello Sam,
>> An additional issue with that is what to do with all the chemicals >> afterwards. Some people store that forever and then one day the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to visit them some time next week to "unload" some used ferric > chloride But please tell them honestly what it is that you bring. Else it can cause accidents and contamination.
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com
JeffM - 25 Nov 2005 20:03 GMT >>...hazardous material depot in my county. I am going >>to..."unload" some used ferric chloride [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Else it can cause accidents and contamination. > Joerg Early on, I was written up for dispensing chemicals into smaller containers and not labeling them. Since then, I've become a bit of a fanatic about labels.
I like to get an almost-used-up roll of the 2" transparent tape they use in the shipping dept and put that over the label so solvents, bleaching agents, or stains won't have such an easy time making them unreadable.
Robert Baer - 26 Nov 2005 05:18 GMT >>>...hazardous material depot in my county. I am going >>>to..."unload" some used ferric chloride [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and put that over the label so solvents, bleaching agents, or stains > won't have such an easy time making them unreadable. "uneradable" means worse than obscene - not fit even for adults!
Chuck Harris - 26 Nov 2005 13:24 GMT >> won't have such an easy time making them unreadable. >> > "uneradable" means worse than obscene - not fit even for adults! No it doesn't, and nor does unreadable.
You need to become familiar with a dictionary.
-Chuck
samIam - 28 Nov 2005 16:30 GMT Actually I didnt need to take this step at all. The car repair shop (where they offer 15 minute oil changes)was more than happy to add the ferric cl to his contamination/waste disposal binge/bottle/whatever.
I stopped by for an oil change and transmission flush and noticed the sign "waste disposal fee - $1.20" and I asked the guy what it was for. He replied ... that they charge to dispose the contimated engine oil (I thought that was PART of the oil change cost) .. in any case I casually asked if I could bring in a FeCl I have accumulated in a large snapple plastic bottle and he said sure
I brough it in and mentioned "hey be careful that stuff will eat through flesh and metal" and he replied "calm down, I know exactly what this stuff is"
So I will be taking it to him after ever 6 or 7 boards I make and its just $1.20 to add it to his waste disposal ...
case closed
>> Good point. >> I tracked down the hazardous material depot in my county. I am going [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://www.analogconsultants.com Chuck Harris - 28 Nov 2005 22:17 GMT > Actually I didnt need to take this step at all. The car repair shop > (where they offer 15 minute oil changes)was more than happy to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > So I will be taking it to him after ever 6 or 7 boards I make and its > just $1.20 to add it to his waste disposal ... Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, and you now have real toxic waste.
The folks that pick up this guy's waste are expecting certain contaminants to be in the oil, but not FeCl. If they find out about the FeCl, they will not be able to recycle the oil. They will have to send it, at great cost, to a toxic waste disposal processor.
The FeCl will go directly to the bottom of his waste oil tank, and stay there regardless of how many times the tank is emptied and refilled. It will surely etch a hole in the bottom of the tank.
-Chuck
John Popelish - 28 Nov 2005 23:42 GMT > Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, > in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > there regardless of how many times the tank is emptied and refilled. It > will surely etch a hole in the bottom of the tank. However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is almost completely inert in the environment. Just neutralize it with washing soda (sodium carbonate) till it quits fizzing. Then all iron and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet.
John Larkin - 29 Nov 2005 00:03 GMT >> Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, >> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron >and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet. The RatShack FeCl jugs used to (still do?) advise you to flush it down the toilet after it's used. Sounds reasonable to me... a little iron, a little copper.
John
Spehro Pefhany - 29 Nov 2005 00:22 GMT >>> Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, >>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >John I think the copper compound in spent etchant can kill the 'good' bacteria in a septic tank system, for those out of reach of municipal water-treatment systems.
Best regards, Spehro Pefhany
 Signature "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Robert Latest - 29 Nov 2005 09:22 GMT ["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.] On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:22:49 -0500, Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in Msg. <jj7no11ngkid5jk7loe2fgpnohu6sa6na8@4ax.com>
> I think the copper compound in spent etchant can kill the 'good' > bacteria in a septic tank system, for those out of reach of municipal > water-treatment systems. Any municipal water treatment system I've ever heard of uses a "biological" cleaning stage using bacteria -- so it applies here as well. Yes, and it is the copper solution (the Cu++ ions) that are toxic. I don't know just how insoluble the compunds are that you create by adding soda. But if you indeed create some "mud" on the bottom of the container, with the rest of the solution not having any greenish or bluish tint, it's a good start.
robert
Chuck Harris - 29 Nov 2005 00:57 GMT >> Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, >> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron > and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet. At that point, the proper thing to do would be to filter through some paper towels, and throw the solids into the trash. Copper compounds are extremely poisonous to fish and plants.
My whole point was that dumping the FeCl into a tank of used oil, just because the stupid mechanic says you can is well... stupid. You, and the environment would be better off if you dumped the waste onto the ground, and let it kill some weeds, or trees, that you don't like.
Flushing it down the toilet isn't a real good idea either, the FeCl does a number on the cast iron pipe that lives in many plumbing systems. Many moons ago, I worked for a PCB manufacturing house. They wouldn't allow me to recycle their spent FeCl (the supplier would give me about $1/gallon for spent FeCl, two carboys was worth more than I made in a day's wages) They dumped the waste FeCl down the floor drain in the building, and then had to bust up the floor every other year to replace the sewer pipe.
If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-)
-Chuck
John Popelish - 29 Nov 2005 01:20 GMT > If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without > regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-) Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda. It will do nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud.
Jim Thompson - 29 Nov 2005 01:22 GMT >> If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without >> regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-) > >Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda. It will do >nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud. I can't remember the details now, but I vaguely recall some method to rejuvenate used FeCl.
...Jim Thompson
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
John Popelish - 29 Nov 2005 01:46 GMT >>>If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without >>>regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I can't remember the details now, but I vaguely recall some method to > rejuvenate used FeCl. Add hydrochloric acid and oxygenate with air bubbles. But it eventually becomes cupric chloride (green instead of golden brown).
Andrew Tweddle - 29 Nov 2005 02:33 GMT >>>If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without >>>regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ...Jim Thompson Add a little HCl to the mix and reuse!
Andrew
Rich Grise - 29 Nov 2005 02:19 GMT >> If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, without >> regard for how much water you flush down the sink... ask me how I know ;-) > > Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda. It will do > nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud. Which sounds kinda like it'd be the same color as the bit of mud they get lined with already. ;-P (ever disconnected the dump hose of a trailer that's been sitting in a lot for 3 years? Eww!)
Cheers! Rich
Chuck Harris - 29 Nov 2005 05:08 GMT >> If you dump the FeCl into a sink, it will eat out the brass traps, >> without [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hence the need for pre-neutralization with washing soda. It will do > nothing to pipes after that, except, possibly line them with a bit of mud. Yes, you already said that, and if you will notice, I wrote FeCl, not iron or copper carbonate.
-Chuck
John Larkin - 29 Nov 2005 02:58 GMT >At that point, the proper thing to do would be to filter through some >paper towels, and throw the solids into the trash. Copper compounds are >extremely poisonous to fish and plants. Roughly a ounce of copper, diluted by maybe a billion gallons of water, won't harm anything. More copper is leached out of household plumbing every day in any good-sized city than you can reasonably dump from household pcb etching.
John
Chuck Harris - 29 Nov 2005 05:05 GMT John Larkin wrote:
>>At that point, the proper thing to do would be to filter through some >>paper towels, and throw the solids into the trash. Copper compounds are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > John Of course, but if I routinely dump it, and you routinely dump it, and someone else dumps their favorite stuff down the drain, sooner or later it adds up. Like you, I truly doubt that there are enough hobbiests that use ferric chloride to etch PCBs so ever make a difference in the ecology of the sewage treatment plant.
As an interesting side note, WSSC, the local water and sewer company, for a couple of years used ferric chloride as the flocculating agent for their water purification process... and surprise!! after a couple of years of doing that, the copper plumbed houses in their district started getting pinhole leaks in long horizontal sections of the copper pipe.
Imagine!
-Chuck
Rich Grise - 29 Nov 2005 02:14 GMT >> Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, >> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron > and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet. OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3?
I have a confession to make - I had enough of the RS stuff to be about an inch deep in a 9" x 12" cake pan, and I just dumped it down the storm drain, which leads to the ocean, so I feel so guilty I should probably turn Liberal or something[1]. ;-P I had done one double-sided board, if that makes any difference. And the only heat I used was to set the pan in the driveway in the sun. :-)
Cheers! Rich [1] I'm a smoker, and when I'm, say, walking down the street and finish a cigarette, if there isn't an ashtray or trash can handy I'll put the butt in my pocket until I get to one. :-)
John Popelish - 29 Nov 2005 02:48 GMT >>>Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, >>>in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate > as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3? (snip)
It works just fine. But you might be surprised how much a quart of ferric chloride will consume, and how much gas it gives off. You can but a big box of washing soda lots cheaper than the same amount of neutralizing ability with bicarb. You can also use calcium carbonate (limestone). With either sodium bicarbonate or sodium carbonate you get salt (sodium chloride from the reaction. With limestone you get calcium chloride, the stuff that is sold to melt ice from the sidewalks.
John Popelish - 29 Nov 2005 02:50 GMT >>>> Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, >>>> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > ferric chloride will consume, and how much gas it gives off. You can > but a big box of washing soda... Make that, buy a big box of washing soda...
Rich Grise - 29 Nov 2005 17:07 GMT >> OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate >> as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > get salt (sodium chloride from the reaction. With limestone you get > calcium chloride, the stuff that is sold to melt ice from the sidewalks. Cool!
Thanks! Rich
Jasen Betts - 30 Nov 2005 05:20 GMT >> However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is >> almost completely inert in the environment. Just neutralize it with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > OK, dumb question time - does this work with sodium bicarbonate > as well? Or is it maybe not recommended because of the H in NaHCO3? It should do, only it'll fizz a bit more than with washing soda.
> I have a confession to make - I had enough of the RS stuff to be about > an inch deep in a 9" x 12" cake pan, and I just dumped it down the storm > drain, which leads to the ocean, so I feel so guilty I should probably > turn Liberal or something[1]. ;-P I had done one double-sided board, if > that makes any difference. And the only heat I used was to set the pan in > the driveway in the sun. :-) the ocean's got plenty of iron (from rusting ships etc) and heaps of chlorine in it already, a little copper is unlikely to harm anything.
Bye. Jasen
Rich Grise - 30 Nov 2005 17:30 GMT >>> However, ferric chloride is very easy to chemically alter, so it is >>> almost completely inert in the environment. Just neutralize it with [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the ocean's got plenty of iron (from rusting ships etc) and heaps of chlorine > in it already, a little copper is unlikely to harm anything. I still like the idea of neutralizing it, just so it's not corrosive or toxic on the way down the pipe.
Plus which, it sounds kinda fun. ;-)
Cheers! Rich
Barry Lennox - 24 Jan 2006 09:41 GMT >> Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, >> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >and copper chloride will have been converted to almost insoluble iron >and copper carbonate mud. Then you can flush it down the toilet. I knew a small PCB house that used to mix used FeCl with ordinary builders cement, and it did much the same.
Barry Lennox
samIam - 29 Nov 2005 21:46 GMT > Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, > in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > they will not be able to recycle the oil. They will have to send it, at > great cost, to a toxic waste disposal processor. Chuck I read this and freaked out. This afternoon I called up the Waste Treatment plant where this stuff is headed (theres only two in the entire county one disposal and one treatment plant... its a county of about 28k people or so ...)
They handle all sorts of chemicals including the stuff used to develope pictures, etch boards, clean spills etc etc.
They were quite knowledgeable with FeCl ... at least they sounded like they were (I am not a Chemical Engineer so sue me).
And as I pointed out the mechanic KNEW what FeCl was. When I pointed out "hey be careful that stuff will eat through .." he replied "dont worry I know what it is"
To get over the guilt trip youve got me on, I am going to HUG a tree on my way home.
Rich Grise, Plainclothes Hippie - 29 Nov 2005 23:49 GMT >> Wow! That really is a bad idea! FeCl is basically harmless to nature, >> in small quantities, but put it in with oil, antifreeze, and other gork, >> and you now have real toxic waste. ...
> Chuck I read this and freaked out. > This afternoon I called up the Waste Treatment plant where this stuff is [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "hey be careful that stuff will eat through .." he replied "dont worry > I know what it is" It only makes sense - they get paid for the recycled oil, they have to pay to have the other poisons disposed of.
> To get over the guilt trip youve got me on, I am going to HUG a tree on > my way home. Do better than that - if you see any litter along the way, pick it up and put it in the bin. :-)
Cheers! Rich
private - 20 Feb 2006 10:49 GMT "I'd like to add a suggestion about how to dispose of used etching solution. Before you pour it in to the sink, pour it in a plastic tank and drop there scrap of old steel nails, screws, small, nuts, bolts, etc., and let it stay for a few days. It will turn the hazardous mix of copper chloride and Ferric Chloride (FeCl3) into copper powder (sludge) that settles on the bottom and a non-etching and non-corrosive solution of FeCl2. It will save from corrosion, destruction and costly replacement in the future your cast iron drain pipes and it will save from killing bacteria in the septic tank or in sewer treatment plant. They are very sensitive to copper chloride and Ferric Chloride. A current law prohibits disposal of those chemicals in the sewer. For best yet treatment, after separation of solution of FeCl2, mix it with solution of soda (Na2CO3 used as detergent) in a flat tray lined with plastic film. It will turn FeCl2 into Fe(CO3) (insoluble rusty mud) and NaCl (harmless cooking salt). After drying outdoor whole dry rusty powder could be wrapped in plastic film and disposed of in the normal trash container." [From http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm]
All Rights Reserved
> Actually I didnt need to take this step at all. The car repair shop > (where they offer 15 minute oil changes)was more than happy to [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> http://www.analogconsultants.com Walter Harley - 22 Nov 2005 02:05 GMT > [...] > Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or > one of the other cheapie board houses. I've been using AP Circuits for my manufacturing (quantities ~100), but for one-offs they're pretty pricey. If I know I need just one of something, I generally use Olimex instead. Olimex's quality is not quite as nice but the price is a tiny fraction. (Unfortunately, they have different standard drill racks and different minimum trace sizes, so it's inefficient to proto with Olimex and then manufacture with AP.)
John Larkin - 22 Nov 2005 04:05 GMT >> [...] >> Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >drill racks and different minimum trace sizes, so it's inefficient to proto >with Olimex and then manufacture with AP.) AP's "proto one" service gets you 4 to 6 small boards for something like $60, as I recall. No solder mask or silk, only sheared to size, but that's just like doing it at home. I've done dozens of different boards, 8/8 design rules, and they've been perfect so far.
What's Olimex's minimum lot charge for a 2-side plated board?
John
Walter Harley - 22 Nov 2005 05:53 GMT > [...] > AP's "proto one" service gets you 4 to 6 small boards for something [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What's Olimex's minimum lot charge for a 2-side plated board? Doh! My mistake. My production vendor is Advanced Circuits, not AP Circuits. Yes, I see that AP Circuits advertises "Two 2-layer PCBs for under $50.00" (for a 1.5" x 1.5" board, their minimum size); a good deal.
Olimex's deal is that you get one 100mm x 160mm board for about $40 (full featured: double-sided, silk-screen, solder mask, plated-through holes), including shipping. The nice thing is, if your design is smaller, they'll panelize and cut for free - so for instance, I recently got 25 very small boards for $40. However, it takes a couple of weeks to get the PCB (in the USA, anyhow), because it ships air mail from Bulgaria. You can pay (a lot) more for faster shipping.
John Larkin - 22 Nov 2005 06:23 GMT >> [...] >> AP's "proto one" service gets you 4 to 6 small boards for something [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >USA, anyhow), because it ships air mail from Bulgaria. You can pay (a lot) >more for faster shipping. Well, the AP Circuits boards are shipped from some weird foreign country, too. They ship by pack moose, I think.
John
Chuck Harris - 22 Nov 2005 13:57 GMT >>[...] >>Buy a batch of double-sided, plated-through boards from AP Circuits or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > drill racks and different minimum trace sizes, so it's inefficient to proto > with Olimex and then manufacture with AP.) I am not a hobbiest, but I do lots of small (prototype) runs of PCB's.
I was using Olimex for a while, but they are no longer on my list of approved vendors. I got 3 runs of different boards in a row that had hair line breaks in traces. When I went to them for some resolution (to a problem of their making), their solution was for me to ship the bad boards back to them, and they would ship me some new boards... with me paying international shipping all 3 ways, and them waiting for the bad boards to arrive before starting the run of replacement boards. Since I use courier shipping to speed things up a bit, that would be $180 in shipping costs, and 3 weeks worth of time.
Other problems with Olimex are: their nonstandard tool rack (you have to figure drill sizes to be the preplating size); wide variability of hole plating thickness; holes that were clogged with copper plated fiberglass swarf; misalignment of drill holes and pads; panelized boards that are sheared, so they have rough fiberglass edges; use of the copper board outline to gage their shearing, leaving 1/2 of the copper outline as part of the board, so your boards are always oversized, and have a conductive trace around the outside edges; minimum trace size of 8 mil, (if you try to use 8 mil traces, you will find them sometimes as small as 5 mil in size); and frequent overetching of the board. Plus, they will only stock 1 oz, 1/16th inch, FR4. If you need something else, tough!
I am done with foreign suppliers! But I am still looking for a good domestic supplier. I sure wish ProtoCircuits was still in town. Their leaving started me on this odyssey of pain.
-Chuck
Tim Shoppa - 21 Nov 2005 18:57 GMT > In the past I have been using the toner transfer > iron on technique. The best I have gotten is 75-80% > of the board done ... the remaining > 20 - 30% is rework for missing/broken traces etc. Wow, that's pretty bad.
When I tried the iron-on method, I had to go back and fix up a couple of traces but nowhere near 20-30% of em.
> Someone hinted at photo transfer Indeed, direct positive PCB's are preferable. But even then you really do have to check each and every trace because it's a tricky process.
> How about double sided boards? For the past 5 years I've been using www.expresspcb.com for all my stuff and had 100% success for single and double-sided stuff. Single-sided, double-sided, ridiculously high lead pitch surface mount stuff, I ain't ever gonna go back to etching this stuff myself.
Tim.
JeffM - 21 Nov 2005 21:25 GMT >>In the past I have been using the toner transfer >>iron on technique. The best I have gotten is 75-80% >> samIam > > Wow, that's pretty bad. > Tim Shoppa Amen. Between each stage of the process is a step called INSPECTION. Obviously, the OP is skipping this.
The first responder (Burridge) mentioned a pen. When I did it, I used fingernail polish for touch-ups and cleaned the board with acetone at the end. . .
>For the past 5 years I've been using www.expresspcb.com... >I ain't ever gonna go back to etching this stuff myself. Yeah. If this is just for the hands-on experience, that's one thing. Not handing this off to the pros as early as possible is just nuts these days.
samIam - 22 Nov 2005 21:15 GMT > When I tried the iron-on method, I had to go back and > fix up a couple of traces but nowhere near 20-30% of em. lol Maybe its a bit of an exaggeration but I would wager at LEAST 15% of the board' traces needed repair
My board size was 4x6
I learned a lesson with the last board, from now on (for hobby boards) I use 15-20 mil traces and leave 50-75mil space between trace lines ... in case I have to go over it with an etch resist or permanent marker.
I am aiming to get it as near perfect when it etches so I dont have to do fixes afterwards.
We will see with my next design 6502sbc thats 8x8 in size and double sided ... tons of vias ...
ehsjr - 22 Nov 2005 00:56 GMT > In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. > The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How about double sided boards? > Thanks You should be able to do *much* better using the iron on method, per the following url: http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
Ed
Erik Walthinsen - 22 Nov 2005 07:14 GMT > What has worked for you guys in the past? I've been using Pulsar film, available from Digikey (182-1003-ND and 182-1021-ND) to do a dozen or so boards so far, including some fine-pitch SMT designs, though all single-sided.
The process is fairly straightforward, but has taken me a lot of experimentation and frustration to get it right. As a result I'm going to write up what I've learned one of these days soon, so others don't have to figure the same stuff out the hard way. Here's the quick version, off the top of my head, with as much detail as I can in this format:
0) Design your board carefully, according to a number of rules that I still need to codify. Some easy ones: use copper pours wherever possible to remove less copper; make sure you set your trace/gap numbers to a comfortable level, I haven't gone below 10mil/10mil yet though I easily could; set the pad annulus to 15+mil so you have some drilling slop; don't let the copper pour or other traces get too close to the *inside* of any SMT chip pads, you can't wick that stuff away.
1) *Laser* print the *positive* artwork onto the transfer paper, cut to size and taped (Avery laser label bits) to a piece of backing paper (both to feed into the laser, and for positioning).
2) Thoroughly rough up (Scotchbrite pad / steel wool) every sq. mm of the board, then wash very carefully, possibly using acetone as the last step (to remove oils *and* copper dust). Do not touch the copper after this step.
3) Laminate/iron the artwork to the board. Pulsar resells a GBC laminator that has both high heat and pressure, and will accept up to 0.03125" boards (not 0.0625", big deal, IMO) for ~$50.
4) Dump the board paper-side up onto the *surface* of a bowl of water and wait (tick tock) for the paper to literally fall off (takes longer, but much more consistent results, don't rush this step).
5) Carefully wash everything off the toner surface, and make sure there are no oils left either.
INSPECTION: if there are any missing areas, clean the copper off with acetone, go all the way back to step 2 and start over. DO NOT SKIP ANY OF STEP 2, do it all over again.
6) Laminate/iron the green film onto the board, let cool, and carefully peel back the plastic.
INSPECTION: if the film wrinkled and left visible toner on the board, or if any toner is visible on the peeled off plastic, go back to step 2 and start over, as per previous inspection step.
7) Grab some gloves, a sponge (combo glove+sponge works great for me), and a few ounces of FeCl or equivalent. Get some FeCl on the tip of the sponge, and lightly *scrub* the board all over until you can see all the way through the copper-free areas when held against a light.
8) Thoroughly clean the film and toner off with acetone, scrub it down with steel wool, and clean it again. Cleaning is your friend.
9) Dump the board in some Liquid Tin (MG Chemicals 421-500ml) for 5-10min. When removing the board from the liquid tin, do not touch the copper+tin surface until you've washed it off and let it sit for a minute. I kept getting fingerprints on the tin and finally realized it came from *above*, not underneath the plating. The stuff is soft. It's also extremely nasty stuff, you *MUST* take even small amounts to a disposal site. MG says even 50ml diluted into 5 gallons of water is too nasty to dump down the drain. You can use extremely fine-grade steel wool, *very* lightly, to clean up the surface a little bit, but as soon as it shows a little copper tint to it, you're done. Very nice color effect though.
10) Use appropriate drill bits, such as the re-ground ones you can get cheap in sets of 25. Only problem is that there no guarantee of size selection with those. This would be a good time to thank yourself for cranking up the pad annulus and leaving yourself some room to mess up.
11) SMT components can be soldered by hand, but I've had far better luck using solder paste and a toaster oven. Digikey has it (KE1507-ND) but as a rather high price ($42 for 35g), and you'll need to find a syringe tip to use, the smaller the better. I'm still getting a feel for exactly how much paste to use for different parts, and the time/temperature constant of my toaster oven is abysmal, so the process is still evolving, but it's worked fairly well so far.
I've taken a few closeup pics of some of my most recent boards, both good and bad:
http://www.omegacs.net/misc/pcbs/
It's not in a decent gallery because the software I was using didn't put up with an upgrade and I haven't figured out what's broken about it yet.
> How about double sided boards? I haven't done any yet, but I plan on doing some attempts eventually. The process would be to put the toner and film on one side, drill 3+ reference holes, then transfer the other side. The problem may be what the laminator will do to the first side when going through the second time. It may be necessary to use even more extra dimensions on the PCB and transfer films and carefully tack the two pieces of transfer paper down through the drilling process, and laminate the two sides at the same time.
The through-hole plating problem is another one I need to research. Pulsar recommended going to International Eyelets (ask for a catalog, you get it within a few days) who make nothing but "PCB eyelets" designed to do through-holes. They're going to be noticably bigger than your average via, but comparable to a normal through-hole component pad. Absolute smallest one their catalog shows a 0.030" hole diameter, 0.020" finished hole, with a 0.046" flange/pad. That's actually not too bad. I'm going to get some trail stuff pretty soon and see what happens.
samIam - 22 Nov 2005 21:32 GMT > 11) SMT components can be soldered by hand, but I've had far better luck > using solder paste and a toaster oven. Digikey has it (KE1507-ND) but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.omegacs.net/misc/pcbs/ Thats pretty impressive ... I thought SMT were off use for hobby work without some really expensive oven/manufacturing equiptment.
Again, NICE work
> I haven't done any yet, but I plan on doing some attempts eventually. > The process would be to put the toner and film on one side, drill 3+ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > down through the drilling process, and laminate the two sides at the > same time. Heres my second to last attempt ... its been redesigned since then and will be placed on a .062 FR4 copper board.
http://www.geocities.com/asa386/My6502Sbc_Anubis/pcb_manufacture/
With vias I just drill holes ... place a small wire on one end, solder, solder other end ... snip off the remainder
I write low level code for a living ... so this is just hobby work
Joel Kolstad - 22 Nov 2005 23:48 GMT > Thats pretty impressive ... I thought SMT were off use for hobby work > without some really expensive oven/manufacturing equiptment. Generally speaking, SMT parts are actually faster to use than leaded parts. Where I've worked in the past, the production workers preferred the SMT boards!
Those PCB pictures the guy posted are nice... kinda reminiscent of what milled boards look like!
:-) - 23 Nov 2005 05:06 GMT >> 11) SMT components can be soldered by hand, but I've had far better >> luck using solder paste and a toaster oven. Digikey has it [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Again, NICE work Nice ! That was one of my goal, a xilinx XC95xxx, now I know it's possible to do :-)
Erik Walthinsen - 23 Nov 2005 19:04 GMT :-) wrote: > Nice ! That was one of my goal, a xilinx XC95xxx, now I know it's > possible to do :-) For some reason that one didn't work so well. Some kind of scum left on the outside of a few rows of the pins, and I didn't restrict the copper pour underneath, so there's an entire row of pins all bridged to each other under the chip. I'll be carefully re-doing that one, as well as tweaking the Eagle printout by 1/128 of an inch (0.8%) to correct for the undersized artwork. The row of 22 pins causes the board to curve quite badly, so I had to break them up and file off a gap between groups of pins for this particular board. Besides, there are several broken traces ;-(
:-) - 23 Nov 2005 22:26 GMT > :-) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of pins for this particular board. Besides, there are several broken > traces ;-( You righ I didn't check this picture in details . To bad for this board, yours others ones were good !
Here some questions form a noob side ;-) (who wish to learn stuff before making to much errors ) I guess you used to much paste for the back. Is it true that when you oven board chips place themself correctly over traces ? Might not work I guess if to much paste is used and if it flood few traces togedther...
why do you have broken traces, is it because of heating in the oven ? Expension and contraction of copper traces?
A smily noob
:-) Erik Walthinsen - 23 Nov 2005 23:53 GMT :-) wrote: > Here some questions form a noob side ;-) > (who wish to learn stuff before making to much errors ) > I guess you used to much paste for the back. Yeah, it's interesting trying to get the right amount on the SSOP/QFP packages. I have what's probably too big a needle to dispense, so I've been using a dental pick to shove the paste around and try to get a consistent amount.
> Is it true that when you oven board chips place themself correctly over > traces? I haven't seen any chips move, but it would surprise me if they didn't move a little. Then again you can see that the CPLD didn't center itself very well. I've definitely seen 1206 parts shuffle around a little, probably as the solder melts from one side to the other.
> Might not work I guess if to much paste is used and if it flood few > traces togedther... Yeah, that's where the cleanup comes in. Small-tip temp-controlled iron, very small solder wick, dental pick, and an acoustic continuity checker with stickpins for probes. Oh, and lots of patience.
> why do you have broken traces, is it because of heating in the oven ? > Expension and contraction of copper traces? No, something went wrong in the transfer process and I foolishly figured it wasn't a big enough problem. Issues like that seem to stem from a few causes:
- not a consistent enough scratching up of the board before laminating - fingerprints etc. at various stages - bits of dust on the board between the toner and the copper - impatient removal of the backing paper from the toner while soaking
:-) - 24 Nov 2005 08:47 GMT Thanks :-)
Another question,
Are you putting something on you board after it is finished, vanish of some kind ?
:-)
> :-) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > - bits of dust on the board between the toner and the copper > - impatient removal of the backing paper from the toner while soaking Erik Walthinsen - 24 Nov 2005 21:57 GMT :-) wrote: > Are you putting something on you board after it is finished, > vanish of some kind ? Nope, just the Liquid Tin. Not sure I want to go the route of putting paint on the board that I'll just have to smell as it burns off later... These are all prototyping boards anyway, I'll be using a board house to do later consolidated boards.
Deefoo - 24 Nov 2005 09:21 GMT > 1) *Laser* print the *positive* artwork onto the transfer paper, cut to > size and taped (Avery laser label bits) to a piece of backing paper > (both to feed into the laser, and for positioning). Before you laser print anything definite do a test print! My experience with (cheapish, I admit, Lexmark & Minolta) laser printers is that they do not print 1:1 in both directions whereas my inkjet does.
--DF
Erik Walthinsen - 24 Nov 2005 21:55 GMT > Before you laser print anything definite do a test print! My experience with > (cheapish, I admit, Lexmark & Minolta) laser printers is that they do not > print 1:1 in both directions whereas my inkjet does. Yup. I found that the laser I'm using (NEC Superscript 1400, retired from office use due to feed problems) is 0.8% off horizontal, and I haven't calibrated it for vertical yet. Makes a row of 20 pins across not quite fit, though you can cheat by snapping them in a few places and filing down period gaps.
Hal Murray - 25 Nov 2005 07:01 GMT >> Before you laser print anything definite do a test print! My experience with >> (cheapish, I admit, Lexmark & Minolta) laser printers is that they do not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >not quite fit, though you can cheat by snapping them in a few places and >filing down period gaps. If you are working with postscript, it's reasonably easy to put a wrapper around your print file that fixes up the scale. I'll fish out the hack I've used if anybody needs it.
 Signature The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses. These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
Erik Walthinsen - 26 Nov 2005 03:14 GMT > If you are working with postscript, it's reasonably easy to put > a wrapper around your print file that fixes up the scale. I'll fish > out the hack I've used if anybody needs it. Eagle has the X and Y scale in the print dialog, I just have to do some larger-scale test prints and measurements. Wonder if I can print out a reference rectangle bigger than the 100x80mm limit of the free version, as long as it's e.g. the tDocu layer and not top or bottom...
Simon Peacock - 22 Nov 2005 10:14 GMT One thing to note when making your own PCB's.. be careful not to mix chemicals.. some cleaners can react with the chemicals used to produce some rather hasty gasses... A friend of mine spent two nights in hospital doing this.
I think the best bet is to use a proto house.. if they can do a panel it can be cheap... for me it was AU $270 for 3 x A4 worth of PCB's .. as much as you can fit on a single A4 sheet and 3 of them. No fuss, no mess, no chemicals or EPA requirements.
Simon
> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. > The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How about double sided boards? > Thanks Deefoo - 22 Nov 2005 11:30 GMT > In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. > The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How about double sided boards? > Thanks I still make some myself the classic photographic way, 100% success, takes me about 15 minutes with fresh, well heated etching liquid (the dirty yellow one). There are many good tutorials to be found on the web. The hardest part, I find, is cutting the board and drilling the holes in the right place.
When I was a kid I used to use an etch-resistant ink pen (and a nail and hamer for the holes, in fact I did the holes first) but fine-pitched boards are not easy this way. I remember routing traces in between ic pins (I then had a small electric drill). The pen was rather annoying since you had to press the tip to get the ink out and often this resulted is large blobs on the board.
--DF
Mike Harrison - 22 Nov 2005 12:37 GMT >> In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. >> The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >one). There are many good tutorials to be found on the web. The hardest >part, I find, is cutting the board Small guillotine
>and drilling the holes in the right >place. Make sure pad patterns have holes in the middle to act as centre marks.
Lots of info on making good homebrew pcbs : www.electricstuff.co.uk/pcbs.html
Chuck Harris - 22 Nov 2005 14:05 GMT >>>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. >>>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Make sure pad patterns have holes in the middle to act as centre marks. Nah, tell the PCB software to leave the holes out of the pads, and then when you etch, you will leave behind a nice little hole in the copper pad where your drill bit goes. It makes drilling a snap.
-Chuck
Mike Harrison - 22 Nov 2005 15:16 GMT >>>>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. >>>>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >-Chuck ..erm that's exactly what I was saying.... you NEED holes in the pads to be able to drill them sensibly
Chuck Harris - 22 Nov 2005 15:53 GMT >>>>and drilling the holes in the right >>>>place. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ..erm that's exactly what I was saying.... you NEED holes in the pads to be able to drill them > sensibly Oops! I saw "centre marks" and thought center marks (eg. cross hairs).
Sorry!
-Chuck
Andy - 22 Nov 2005 13:59 GMT Andy comments:
I used fingernail polish as etch resist for small jobs that didn't need fine work and it worked great. It can be removed with nail polish remover. I never tried etch resist pens because I didn't trust them.....
On the ground plane side, I needed to clear the areas around the holes and I used a drill bit with some tape around the shank which I rotated by hand to clear it out. The drill bit would center easily in the hole and had a diameter larger than the clearance I wanted so that I could stop when it was right.....
This works great, as long as one doesn't need tiny tracks....
Andy
PS I prefer Ferric Chloride for etching. I never was happy with Ammonium Perchloride (or whatever the other stuff was ). Keep the solution warm, and jiggle the board occasionally with the side to be etched facing down......
ludo - 24 Nov 2005 23:59 GMT [snip]
> When I was a kid I used to use an etch-resistant ink pen (and a nail and > hamer for the holes, in fact I did the holes first) but fine-pitched [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > --DF Something worth trying as alternative to photoresist pens that leave blobs like this: Staedtler Lumocolor. Nice to touch up the bits where the positive resist or the toner transfer didn't stick. In my experience the black one is more resistant to FeCl than the (somewhat) ancient Dalo photoresist pen I have here (with the blob habit.) The red one is apparently even better. They are available in 4 tip sizes too. (Google is good) I've tried some other overhead marker/permanent marker type pens that didn't work well at all.
When drilling/cutting the board, use a respirator, like when spraypainting. Saves you from waking up with an evil splitting head the next day. One more reason to go with SMT as far as possible. Less drilling.
L
Jasen Betts - 25 Nov 2005 18:51 GMT ["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.cad.]
> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > too. (Google is good) I've tried some other overhead marker/permanent > marker type pens that didn't work well at all. Lumocolor (I assume you mean the permanent type not the dry erase) are sometimes sold as "cdrom pens". OHP pens are hard to find, there's not much market for them any more.
Bye. Jasen
Jim Thompson - 22 Nov 2005 15:25 GMT >In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. >The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >How about double sided boards? >Thanks About a year ago I bought a Roland SX-8 (vinyl) sign-cutter for some Scout activity signs AND as stencils for glass etching (via sand blaster).
Works just ducky for both of those applications, but I'm tempted to try it as stick-on resist.
Anyone tried such a scheme?
...Jim Thompson
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Chuck Harris - 22 Nov 2005 16:03 GMT > About a year ago I bought a Roland SX-8 (vinyl) sign-cutter for some > Scout activity signs AND as stencils for glass etching (via sand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ...Jim Thompson Yes, and no. I use an IBC-912 Boardmaker, which is a PCB mill. It engraves an outline around the traces to isolate them from the rest of the ground plane.
You would be doing much the same thing with your Roland, except you would be peeling away the parts you didn't want to etch. The problem is in your PCB cad package. They generally are based on the photoplot plan for making boards, that is that traces and pads are separate entities, and multiple exposures are still black. What will happen, is when you plot onto your Roland, first will come an outline of all of the traces, and next will come an outline of all of the pads. The pads will chop off the ends of the traces, and you will have a stencil that is nothing but tiny pieces.
What you need is a program that acts like a photoplotter, and puts the ultimate silouette image into memory, and then creates the vectors that are necessary to make the true outline. There is a program like that available on MIT's website for the "how to make almost anything" course that the university offers. It is even targeted to the Roland plotter. The author is a real abrasive peacenik character, but his software is top notch.
Alternatively, Christian Zinner has a program called PlatinCNC which does the same job (only much much better). His program is geared towards the CNC routed PCB's, like my IBC makes. I have been using it for quite awhile now, and it is a complete and total marvel! He has it priced for under $200 last I looked.
-Chuck
Jim Thompson - 22 Nov 2005 16:30 GMT >> About a year ago I bought a Roland SX-8 (vinyl) sign-cutter for some >> Scout activity signs AND as stencils for glass etching (via sand [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > >-Chuck The Roland came with a program called Stika that can do outlines. I've only used it on BMP's, but maybe I can make it all play through Universal Document Converter.
Plus ExpressPCB can be cajoled into printing "solids", making outlining much easier.
I have an advantage... my sight in inadequate to do less than 50mil traces ;-)
...Jim Thompson
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | | http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
petrus bitbyter - 22 Nov 2005 19:11 GMT > In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. > The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How about double sided boards? > Thanks IMHO there is not such a method as the "best" hobby DIY. Both method and result depends highly on the experience and tools available. I ever started using nail polish and nitric acid. Did several types of photografic methods and also tried out toner transfer. The latter worked well as long as I had access to an HP Laserjet 5000. This one put enough toner on the sheet to work as an etch resist. Other laserprinters I tried, including the Laserjet 4Si, did not. Now I'm back at the photo method using two overlayed transparancies for the positive. The best site on the net I'm aware of is: http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/pcbs.html (Almost) all you need to know about etching PCBs at home.
petrus bitbyter
Anton Erasmus - 22 Nov 2005 21:10 GMT >In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. >The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >How about double sided boards? >Thanks I have found that using pre-clad boards with positive resist work quite well. With the spray on positive resist, it is difficult to get a nice even coating without any bubbles and dust. http://www.bungard.com/ have very good quality pre-sensitised PCBs. (Both single and double sided with a long shelve life) Print the layout on a transparency using an inkjet printer. Clamp the transparency against the PCB (photo resist) side with a piece of transparent glass. Expose in sunlight for about 45 seconds. (Experiment a bit). Develop PCB, and etch. I have had very good results with even 10mil tracks and 10 mil spacing. When doing double sided, one must make very sure of the alignment of the 2 sides.
Regards Anton Erasmus
harryhbrown@earthlink.net - 17 Dec 2005 12:19 GMT To apply the positive resist evenly on boards:
1. You need a variable speed quarter inch drill with a sanding attachment, double sided masking tape and a cardboard box (and posttive resist)
2. Poke a hole in the cardboard box( large enough so that your board fits into the box not hitting the sides) so that the drill end sticks through.
3. Attach the sanding attachment to the drill.
4, Tape your pc board tape the board using double sided masking tape to a sanding attachment. Center (balance) it well.
5. Pour a "small" amount of the positive resist on the board. You'll have to experiment to find the correct amount.
6. Place a cover over the open end of the box so that when you spin the board (in the next step) the excess positive resist will not fly out and coat unwanted objects (you among other things).
7 Slowly spin the board so that cetrifical force will spread the resist over the board. You'll have to stop a few times to check this.
Lots of luck.
Harry ==================
>>In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. >>The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Regards > Anton Erasmus Chuck Harris - 17 Dec 2005 16:15 GMT > To apply the positive resist evenly on boards: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Lots of luck. I guess that's a way, but in industry, we did it a little differently. We used a thin rectangular S.S. "bucket" that was just slightly larger than the board we were coating, and dipped the board into the bucket vertically, then after removing it, we let it hang to drip dry. This was all done under yellow lights to keep from exposing the resist.
I did thousands of boards that way, and never had any coating thickness problems.
-Chuck
James T. White - 17 Dec 2005 21:28 GMT > I guess that's a way, but in industry, we did it a little differently. > We used a thin rectangular S.S. "bucket" that was just slightly larger [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I did thousands of boards that way, and never had any coating thickness > problems. I've used the "dip method" as a hobyist, too. Not having a made to size container usually meant finding something and pouring in more liquid resist in than I needed. When I was done, I had to decide if I wanted to risk contaminating the resist still in the bottle with that that was in the tray. For a PCB shop the answer is simple, throw it out. For for the hobyist that usually means saving it. I never had problems, but was always concerned that eventually I would get dust/lint from the air in it or have problems with viscosity since some evaporation is unavoidable.
 Signature James T. White
Chuck Harris - 17 Dec 2005 23:31 GMT >> I guess that's a way, but in industry, we did it a little differently. >> We used a thin rectangular S.S. "bucket" that was just slightly larger [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > container usually meant finding something and pouring in more liquid > resist Our container was made using a bending brake, and some sheet stainless steel. You could easily make one using some pieces of plexiglass, and a little glue.
> in than I needed. When I was done, I had to decide if I wanted to risk > contaminating the resist still in the bottle with that that was in the > tray. For > a PCB shop the answer is simple, throw it out. I don't recall ever actually dumping out the resist. We just kept adding more KPR to the pot. It was quite an ugly mess what with the drips drooling down the sides, turning brown and congealing. The pot had a simple cover (also bent up with the brake) that we put over its top when it wasn't in use.
For for the hobyist that
> usually means saving it. I never had problems, but was always concerned > that eventually I would get dust/lint from the air in it or have > problems > with viscosity since some evaporation is unavoidable. Our environment wasn't exactly clean, being as we were in an open room just off of the machine shop. I don't recall dust being much of a problem.
We used the same KPR pot to make PCB's, brass shimstock painting stencils, and ID tags for equipment.
-Chuck
Anton Erasmus - 22 Dec 2005 13:17 GMT >>> I guess that's a way, but in industry, we did it a little differently. >>> We used a thin rectangular S.S. "bucket" that was just slightly larger [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >We used the same KPR pot to make PCB's, brass shimstock painting stencils, >and ID tags for equipment. It is of course possible to get a nice even coating as a hobbiest, but unless one does this quite often, the effort saved by using pre-coated boards are immense. The boards from bungard also comes with a protective sheet which protects the coating from light and mechanical damage. One can saw, drill, punch, file and basically go bananas without damaging the coating. It is difficult to remove this protective sheet accidentaly, but it is quite easy to remove on purpose. Having good quality pre-coated boards also removes one more variable. When starting out it is often good to have as few as possible variables to play with. Are there any other manufacturers that provide pre-coated PCBs, which can be ordered via the internet ?
Regards Anton Erasmus
Chuck Harris - 22 Dec 2005 14:54 GMT > Are there any other manufacturers that provide pre-coated PCBs, which > can be ordered via the internet ? > > Regards > Anton Erasmus Sure,
Go to http://WWW.digikey.com, or http://www.mouser.com. They each sell precoated PCB's
-Chuck
Rich, Under the Affluence - 23 Nov 2005 22:49 GMT > In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. > The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > What gives the best results on a fairly consistent basis? > How about double sided boards? I've only done this once, a thousand years or so ago, but I made my originals on plastic with tape and a little bit of india ink. They were 2X. I took them to a photo shop and got positives, six-up, registered for double-sided. I stapled the negatives together, got a piece of photosensitive board at Radio Shack, slid the board between the negatives, and exposed it to the sun for about a half- hour on each side. I don't remember what the next step was - developing the resist and washing it, or some such, but then I etched it in a cake pan with about an inch (2.5 cm) of Ferric Chloride solution (also from RS - in their etch kit -- Hey! I said it was a long time ago!), and did get a little bit of undercutting, and drilling it right was very, very interesting, but it did work. :-) (the product died on the vine, however. )-; )
Good Luck! Rich
roma - 26 Nov 2005 06:38 GMT > In the past I have been using the toner transfer iron on technique. > The best I have gotten is 75-80% of the board done ... the remaining [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How about double sided boards? > Thanks I still get 99% success with the transfer method . I have a HP 1210 laser that I set at 1200 for printing . The secret is in the paper to use and the copper clad cleaning method . A ) Get the following photo paper from "STAPLES" Staples brand of photo paper , 30 sheets for $14 Canadian , stock # 18103 02238 , red package "for inkjet printers" NO SUBSTITUTE .
B )Get a small bottle of cream cleaner used for glass- ceramic cooktop "cerama Bryte " , "Cook Top " or similar , a bit pricy but worth it. USE a few drops and do a good cleaning of the copper board a paper towell then rinse under the hot water tap then dry with paper tower . DO NOT TOUCH THE SURFACE WITH FINGERS . Then proceed with the iron transfer take all the time needed . Soak copper plate in soapy water in sink and after a few minutes scrub first paper layer with fingers and thum soak some more then test for further paper scrubbing and ensure no paper residue is visible .
Works good for me . Roma Home of " Handy Dandy Little Circuits " http://members.shaw.ca/roma
|
|
|