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Electronics Forum / Basics / July 2006Getting into the field.
I wonder if some engineers out there might help with some advice on getting into the field. I have a degree in physics and research experience in experimental physics, which the physics rags have always told me was the cat's meow. But employers don't seem very interested in that. I'm considering taking some undergrad level courses on control theory and microcontrollers, without going for a whole new degree. I'd be aiming for the controls engineer type of market. And I'd appreciate some opinions on what a hiring manager would think about that sort of thing. Thanks. > I wonder if some engineers out there might help with some advice on > getting into the field. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > for the controls engineer type of market. And I'd appreciate some > opinions on what a hiring manager would think about that sort of thing. A (smart) hiring manager is only going to care about two things: 1) Can you do the job. i.e, do you have the practical experience. 2) Do they like you. Most of the time qualifications don't mean squat in this industry. Occasionally they overlook #2 if you have #1 Forget the undergrad courses, unless you think that's the only way you can get the practical skills required. Plenty of microcontroller kits out there, go buy one and start building stuff. Dave :) >>I wonder if some engineers out there might help with some advice on >>getting into the field. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Dave :) Here's a problem I see-- I buy a microcontroller kit and start building stuff, and tell an employer that I bought a microcontroller kit and built stuff. But how does he verify that? How does he verify the quality of my work, or that I put together some non-trivial projects? Coursework at least documents a minimum set of skills and experience. If I think from an employer's perspective, someone who claims to be self-studied could have done little more than skim a book. I've studied control theory in the course of doing my physics, but nobody seems to have been very impressed by that. School labs are also better equipped than my basement. I was told by another person that engineers hire engineers with engineering degrees, not someone who's taken a few courses. They're quite selective about that, I was just told. Am I to believe that I should give up hope of being hired as an engineer unless I have a full degree in engineering, or that I would become employable as an engineer after dinking around in my basement for a while? I'm just not sure what is expected. > >>I wonder if some engineers out there might help with some advice on > >>getting into the field. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > built stuff. But how does he verify that? How does he verify the > quality of my work, or that I put together some non-trivial projects? They don't necessarily need to verify it, just like no employer ever goes and checks that you actually completed your degree. That's why a smart employer will grill you in the interview with technical questions, ask you to solve problems, draw circuits, explain stuff. It is *incredibly easy* to tell if someone knows their stuff with a few choice questions. If you know your stuff you'll do it easy, if you don't know then you'll choke - doesn't matter what qualifications you have. Sure it helps if you can prove stuff, and there are many ways to do this. Getting something published helps, set up a website detailing your work, or bring your work into the interview and show them. > Coursework at least documents a minimum set of skills and experience. Not really, it only documents that you were able to pass the course by whatever means necessary. I once had a guy come into an interview with his thesis project documentation. I grilled him on it and hew couldn't answer a single one of my simple questions on his own project, he was clueless. It was fine documentation (he must have paid someone?), but he didn't know a thing, so he didn't get the job. > If I think from an employer's perspective, someone who claims to be > self-studied could have done little more than skim a book. I've studied > control theory in the course of doing my physics, but nobody seems to > have been very impressed by that. That's because you only studied it, you didn't do any real practical work. Smart employers care about what stuff you have actually designed, built and worked on. > School labs are also better equipped than my basement. Sure, but that doesn't make the difference you think it might. You can do a hell of a lot with a CRO, meter, and soldering iron at home. > I was told by another person that engineers hire engineers with > engineering degrees, not someone who's taken a few courses. They're > quite selective about that, I was just told. Then you were told wrong. Smart engineers hire people who can do the job. For a graduate with nothing else to show, the course might be important, but for an experiened person in the real world it couldn't be further from the truth. Your qualifications pale into insignificance once you have experience. > Am I to believe that I > should give up hope of being hired as an engineer unless I have a full > degree in engineering, or that I would become employable as an engineer > after dinking around in my basement for a while? No, not at all, you just need practical experience. You already have a degree, combine that with some practical hands on experience and you'll be fine. Engineering is certainly one field were you do not really need formal qualifications. I'm talking about private industry here BTW, Government jobs etc usually have strict requirements. >I'm just not sure what is expected. Experience! Dave :) > > I was told by another person that engineers hire engineers with > > engineering degrees, not someone who's taken a few courses. They're [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Dave :) Thank you, Dave. You've given me hope that my money would be better spent equipping a workshop and pursuing some of those things I've been thinking about. I would be a little worried about amateur sloppiness, like incomplete documentation. I've seen a number of texts on electronics and computer programming, and they haven't dealth with that sort of thing well or at all. Can you recommend a good kit and instruction materials? I suppose I'd have to pick up a Windows computer from somewhere. I've also seen the opinion elsewhere that of all the degrees, engineering probably has the biggest gap between what's taught in school and what's needed in the real world, and the fresh grad generally can't hit the ground running. Any comments on that? On 7/25/06 7:49 AM, in article 1153838971.351481.304850@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, >>> I was told by another person that engineers hire engineers with >>> engineering degrees, not someone who's taken a few courses. They're [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Can you recommend a good kit and instruction materials? I suppose I'd > have to pick up a Windows computer from somewhere. The new Mac computers can run Windows without emulation > I've also seen the opinion elsewhere that of all the degrees, > engineering probably has the biggest gap between what's taught in > school and what's needed in the real world, and the fresh grad > generally can't hit the ground running. Any comments on that? > On 7/25/06 7:49 AM, in article >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> Then you were told wrong. Smart engineers hire people who can do the >>> job. ... >>> Experience! >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The new Mac computers can run Windows without emulation GAAAAACK!!!! If you're going to pick up a new computer, be sure that the drive is partitioned (or learn how to do it yourself) so that you can dual- or multi- boot the system, i.e., a Windows partition, (98 or 2K, or both), a DOS partition, and at least one Linux partition. And of course, as many data partitions as you want - just be sure to keep your data separate from your system drive. (when you need to reinstall windows, it reformats the drive for you.) Have Fun! Rich > > > I was told by another person that engineers hire engineers with > > > engineering degrees, not someone who's taken a few courses. They're [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > electronics and computer programming, and they haven't dealth with that > sort of thing well or at all. Sure, documentation can be important, but the smart employer will know that the most important reason they hire you is to design, build and implement stuff. Documentation changes from company to company, some don't care, others (usually larger companies) will have a whole archaic system you have to follow. As long as you can show you have basic documentation skills, that's usually good enough. They can mould into their way of doing things. These days, if you can speak and write English that's a big plus! :-> Some guys will spend *too long* on documentation! > Can you recommend a good kit and instruction materials? I suppose I'd > have to pick up a Windows computer from somewhere. Yeah, most stuff is windows. Tough call on the kits and things, such a broad area. But for microcontrollers you can't go past either PIC or AVR, that's what everyone is using these days. Make sure you know C and a bit of assembly. Source code documentation can be more important than hardware design documentation! > I've also seen the opinion elsewhere that of all the degrees, > engineering probably has the biggest gap between what's taught in > school and what's needed in the real world, and the fresh grad > generally can't hit the ground running. Any comments on that? You'll find plenty on this in the forum archives. Yes, there is a *massive* gap in the skills a grad has and what you need in the real world. Those students who simply do the course and do no additional work, or have no interest in electronics outside of the classroom will be absolutely clueless when they leave. By far the best people are those who come from a hobbyist background and have a real interest in electronics. I've intereviewed plenty of grads, and the standard is nothing short of appalling. They might be great at maths and passing exams etc, but they know jack about even the most basic stuff like how to use a scope, let alone how a scope actually works. I have a set of very basic interview questions I ask grads and other "junior" people, stuff like what is the beta of a transistor, calculate a LED dropper resistor, name one brand of microcontroller etc and most fail dismally. My favorite exercise is to give them a populated PCB and get them to tell me anything they want about it. When you get replies like "well, it's a PCB isn't it, and that is a resistor, and that's a chip..." you just want to cry! By being here in this forum you are already one step ahead of them! Regards Dave :) > Sure, documentation can be important, but the smart employer will know > that the most important reason they hire you is to design, build and > implement stuff. Just for another perspective on this - I have always maintained that all an engineer really does that's worth the money he or she is paid IS documentation. Engineers don't build things; that's what manufacturing does. Engineers DO design things, but the best design in the world is absolutely worthless if you can't provide manufacturing with a clear understanding of HOW to build it (that includes schematics, code, whatever it takes) and the guys in the field with a clear understanding of how to support it. And that, folks, is "documentation," plain and simple. I'll take one competent engineer with good documentation and communication skills over three who produce great designs but can't explain them to anyone. And you certainly can't expect to advance beyond the level of "plain ol' MTS" (or whatever your local equivalent is) without good communications skills. Bob M. >>>>I was told by another person that engineers hire engineers with >>>>engineering degrees, not someone who's taken a few courses. They're [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > Regards > Dave :) After that little assessment, I almost feel like I'm three steps ahead of them without additional training or experience! > Thank you, Dave. You've given me hope that my money would be better > spent equipping a workshop and pursuing some of those things I've been > thinking about. I'd second that. I deal with a fair amount of precision mechanical design in my job (do some myself, and comment on work by others). Aside from a talent with mechanical CAD, most of what I rely on is the experience I gained from having a small lathe and milling machine in my spare room. > I would be a little worried about amateur sloppiness, > like incomplete documentation. Documentation is always as complete as you can be bothered to make it. If you're doing it as a serious career development thing, then do docs that will stand up later as the work of somebody that's worth employing.  SignatureMelodolic Spielberg >>Thank you, Dave. You've given me hope that my money would be better >>spent equipping a workshop and pursuing some of those things I've been [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with mechanical CAD, most of what I rely on is the experience I gained from > having a small lathe and milling machine in my spare room. As much as I would like to have a lathe and milling machine, I can't afford anything like that. I used to use machine tools, and I'd like to assemble a small workshop. Someday when I have an income that's worth more than spit. Right now, I'm thinking of starting with some test instruments with nice wood cases that I can build with simple hand tools. Next week. I have a time-suck until then. >>I would be a little worried about amateur sloppiness, >>like incomplete documentation. > > Documentation is always as complete as you can be bothered to make it. If > you're doing it as a serious career development thing, then do docs that > will stand up later as the work of somebody that's worth employing. My worry is more that I don't know what docs, or what standard of docs, is expected from somebody that's worth employing. Schematics, sure. Physical placement of components and wiring. Shop drawings of peices that need to be manufactured, like frames and brackets and cases. For more complicated projects I suppose graphs of transfer functions, state charts, ladder diagrams, whatever. Any good books on electronics engineering versus electronics theory? I think I can find all the theory I need-- I'd like to find something that covers the design and documentation part of it. > As much as I would like to have a lathe and milling machine, I can't > afford anything like that. I used to use machine tools, and I'd like > to assemble a small workshop. Someday when I have an income that's > worth more than spit. I know the feeling - patience and all that. :-) If you can, try to keep some cash aside in case a real bargain comes along. Don't know what size of machines you envisage, but the current crop of imported Chinese modelmaker's machines are very good value - I bought my mill new, and the lathe used, 3 or 4 years ago. Paid about 300ukp for each at the time, and they've dropped a bit since then (don't knwo where you are, but the same kit is quite a bit cheaper in the US). You're probably aware that rather a lot of additional budget will go on tooling - but at least it can be bought bit by bit. > Right now, I'm thinking of starting with some test instruments with > nice wood cases that I can build with simple hand tools. Next week. > I have a time-suck until then. What are you thinking of making, and how would you go about making boards (if the instruments need them)? > My worry is more that I don't know what docs, or what standard of > docs, is expected from somebody that's worth employing. Schematics, > sure. Physical placement of components and wiring. Shop drawings of > peices that need to be manufactured, like frames and brackets and > cases. For more complicated projects I suppose graphs of transfer > functions, state charts, ladder diagrams, whatever. To my mind, documentation has to (as someone has already said) provide the information required to build A Thing from scratch - schematics, board layout, bill of materials, mechanical parts with drawings where required, how to assemble it, all that stuff. Depending on the company, there may also be a desire for docs that explain how the circuit works, how it's calibrated or serviced, how it's used. > Any good books on electronics engineering versus electronics theory? > I think I can find all the theory I need-- I'd like to find something > that covers the design and documentation part of it. No idea. To my mind, engineering is about designing stuff to meet some need or other, within certain constraints (like cost, material type, timescale, etc). SignatureMelodolic Spielberg >>As much as I would like to have a lathe and milling machine, I can't >>afford anything like that. I used to use machine tools, and I'd like [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > What are you thinking of making, and how would you go about making boards > (if the instruments need them)? Power supply and function generator, for starters. Even used equipment of that sort seems amazingly expensive on eBay. I was lucky enough to have picked up a scope from a school that was throwing out old equipment. Circuit boards aren't a problem, I can get that from the local Radio Schack. They even have copper blanks and etching supplies, which I haven't tried yet. They have an interesting mix of parts that I'm amazed that they carry and parts that I'm amazed that they don't carry. Mostly the latter. > Power supply and function generator, for starters. Even used > equipment of that sort seems amazingly expensive on eBay. However, the advantage of eBay is that it's easy to do market research - the completed listings option lets you see what sells for what price. Once you draw up a shortlist and set up searches with the email alerts activated, the bargains will come along sooner or later. I was recently looking at function generators - the cheaper deals for lower speed generators (say 500Khz to 1 or 2MHz) seemed to start at around 15-20ukp. > I was > lucky enough to have picked up a scope from a school that was > throwing out old equipment. There are always the freebies. :-) I got a 60MHz scope and a twin-rail 0-15V 2A PSU (with bouncy needle meters) from work when they were deemed to be too old and feeble for our needs. Both are a bit beat up, but work fine. > Circuit boards aren't a problem, I can > get that from the local Radio Schack. They even have copper blanks > and etching supplies, which I haven't tried yet. Have a look at my home-brew bubble etch tank and 1st attempt at a board at... http://mercury/melodolic.com/Lab/index_EtchTank.php http://mercury/melodolic.com/Lab/index_PCBEtch.php > They have an > interesting mix of parts that I'm amazed that they carry and parts > that I'm amazed that they don't carry. Mostly the latter. Sounds like Maplin in the UK. There used to be an offshoot of Radio Shack in the UK, called Tandy, but they disappeared after a few years - I think Maplin beat them at their own game (Maplin used to be much more oriented towards components and projects, but now does computer bits, radio controlled cars, GPS, all sorts). SignatureMelodolic Spielberg >>Power supply and function generator, for starters. Even used >>equipment of that sort seems amazingly expensive on eBay. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > generators - the cheaper deals for lower speed generators (say 500Khz to 1 > or 2MHz) seemed to start at around 15-20ukp. I think that translates closely enough to $40USD. I'd pay that. Then, I suppose, it would be another $40 for shipping. >>I was >>lucky enough to have picked up a scope from a school that was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 0-15V 2A PSU (with bouncy needle meters) from work when they were deemed to > be too old and feeble for our needs. Both are a bit beat up, but work fine. I went to the local community college and asked the electronics instructor whether they replace old equipment with new equipment and, if so, whether it would be available for sale. He said yes and no. He would love to be able to sell old equipment to students, or sell it on eBay to get funds for the classroom, but the system is carefully designed so that individuals and the department can't benefit by it. Rather like the old screw-mount lenses I found at a national lab that nobody used and barely remembered. But to get them, they would have had to be surplused, and I would have had to bid for them at auction along with a pallet of monochrome monitors, broken typewriters, and other useless crap that mainly only has scrap value. Carefully designed to eliminate all possibility of personal benefit. Or spend ten dollars to save one, the instructor said. >>Circuit boards aren't a problem, I can >>get that from the local Radio Schack. They even have copper blanks [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://mercury/melodolic.com/Lab/index_PCBEtch.php Can't seem to find those. Are the URLs right? >>They have an >>interesting mix of parts that I'm amazed that they carry and parts [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > towards components and projects, but now does computer bits, radio > controlled cars, GPS, all sorts). But it's my most accessible source. And so I puzzle over them having an LM317 but not an LM337, and having some wire wrap supplies but not a wire wrap tool. Mail order takes some of the spontaneity out of it. > Can't seem to find those. Are the URLs right? Oops! That's my local intranet web server. Try these... http://lab.melodolic.com/index_EtchTank.php http://lab.melodolic.com/index_PCBEtch.php SignatureMelodolic Spielberg > My worry is more that I don't know what docs, or what standard of docs, is > expected from somebody that's worth employing. Schematics, sure. Physical > placement of components and wiring. Shop drawings of peices that need to > be manufactured, like frames and brackets and cases. For more complicated > projects I suppose graphs of transfer functions, state charts, ladder > diagrams, whatever. It's hard to make a detailed list of everything that might be expected of "decent documentation," as this will vary a lot depending on the exact nature of the design in question. But the most simple, basic consideration is this: suppose you hand off your design to manufacturing or whoever today, and tomorrow you're hit by a bus. Would the documentation provided readily permit someone else to build, service, and support what you've designed, with NO further input from you personally? Could another engineer easily "come up to speed" on your design, and support/modify it as necessary? Another real-world test - if, months or even years after you handed off a design, your phone still regularly rings with requests to explain how the thing works, how it's supposed to be built, or what to do when it breaks, you DIDN'T do a very good job of documentation. > Any good books on electronics engineering versus electronics theory? I > think I can find all the theory I need-- I'd like to find something that > covers the design and documentation part of it. Meaning, books that tell you how things really are in the "real world," vs. what you learn in engineering classes? I sure don't know of any. The rule of thumb I was told is that you can pretty much count on a fresh-out-of-school engineer being almost completely useless on oaverage for the first 6 months to a year, as he or she learns this stuff the only way possible. I suppose such a book could be written, but on the other hand, the only ones who would believe it would be those who don't NEED to read it...:-) Bob M. > >>Thank you, Dave. You've given me hope that my money would be better > >>spent equipping a workshop and pursuing some of those things I've been [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > think I can find all the theory I need-- I'd like to find something that > covers the design and documentation part of it. You might have better luck learning the details of electronic manufacturing by working in the industry and observing what goes on. You might consider a manufacturing job as a technician, or quality control inspector, or whatever just to get your foot in the door and experience what goes on. Why not identify a good company you would like to work for, and just start out at whatever is available and move on from there? Once you are on the payroll and get aquainted with others, the system of doing things should become apparent. -Bill > My worry is more that I don't know what docs, or what standard of docs, > is expected from somebody that's worth employing. Schematics, sure. > Physical placement of components and wiring. Shop drawings of peices > that need to be manufactured, like frames and brackets and cases. For > more complicated projects I suppose graphs of transfer functions, state > charts, ladder diagrams, whatever. You really only get a feel for it after working for a few different companies. That way you get to see the best (and worst) approaches. A big fear going into a new company is having to learn their "system" and a new way to do things. If you are lucky (or unlucky depending on how you look at it) then the company won't have any real formal system and you can do what you think is best and are used to. In companies like this it can be quite easy to come in and look like a real hero from day one by doing some "fancy" documentation that they haven't seen before. For instance, one job I started at I wowed everyone by writing a software user guide that actually included screen shots. They were absolutely amazed!, and here I was thinking that was a trival thing to do at minimum. Not to mention taking a photo of CRO waveform and including it a test results document - such innovation! :-/ It really is all incredibly company (and industry) specific, there is no one "right way" to do something. But there are some common practicies that you should know. Stuff like a typical design project might have a basic set of documents like a "Project Specification", "Design plan", "Manufacturing Test Spec", "Manufacturing Instruction", "Theory of Operation", "Qualification Plan/Report", "Technical Manual" etc etc Once in a company you simply grab a few example documents from a previous project and copy them. If there is an important one you think they have missed, then just make the format up yourself, or rely on experience from a previous company. In some companies you might be expected to only do one aspect of this documentation, but in other jobs you might be a "one man band". > Any good books on electronics engineering versus electronics theory? I > think I can find all the theory I need-- I'd like to find something that > covers the design and documentation part of it. No such thing unfortunately! Dave :) >> I was told by another person that engineers hire engineers with >> engineering degrees, not someone who's taken a few courses. They're [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > be further from the truth. Your qualifications pale into insignificance > once you have experience. Or, you could free-lance. I just got paid for some design work I've done for a new client. On my invoice, I have the letterhead: Rich Grise Contract Inventor [address, etc.] Cheers! Rich >>>I wonder if some engineers out there might help with some advice on >>>getting into the field. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > built stuff. But how does he verify that? How does he verify the > quality of my work, or that I put together some non-trivial projects? Take your new device to the interview, demo it, give the guy full docs, like as if you were presenting a product. ("Now, you understand, this is just the prototype...") But do it up all pro-style, where "anyone skilled in the art" could take your docs and build another one - they like paper. ;-) A picture is worth a thousand words, and a working model is worth probably at least a couple of dozen pictures. :-) Good Luck! Rich > I wonder if some engineers out there might help with some advice on > getting into the field. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Thanks. Hi, Greg. If I could offer another opinion, I'd suggest that you get into an area of the electronics field where your degree in physics would be more of an asset. I'd suggest looking at sales, applications engineering, and quality careers. For those positions, a "generalist" is more valued. Keep learning about electronics, of course, but these are good places in electronics to start where you can put your research experience to work right away. Good luck Chris |
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