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Electronics Forum / Basics / June 200612 Volt power Supply
please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. I have tried to biuld a 12 volt power supply for testing motor/gearbox/pump units and the problem is that it keep blowing up I have only a very simple circuit of a Transformer to drop the voltatge down from 240 then feed this through a bridge rectifier ( International Rectifier Part No. GBPC3502A ) and the connect the output via an ammeter to the motor. once it is running it is fine, but somtimes blows the refitier when it is turned on ( switching the AC input to the transformer ) do I need more components in the circuit, if so what ? The motors will draw up to 20 amps, when running the rectifier does get hot but has a heat sink and fan from an old PC connected. but it allways blows when you turn it on, not when it is running All assistance greatfully received Phil > please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical > engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Phil Phil It must be the 'surge' current thats blowing the rectifier. If the motor draws 20Amps with a moderate load, then I bet it draws 80Amps at switch on (Very high load during the first few hundred miliseconds) Your fan and heatsink wont help with the initial surge. You'll need a more suitable bridge rectifier. Steve Balstone > > please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical > > engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Steve Balstone Cheers for that , Sounds like that is the problem, is there any way to limit the intial current draw, a coil or somthing like that ? Phil > > > please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical > > > engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Phil Mmmmmmmm To keep it really simple, you could build a crude 'soft start' circuit. Get a 0.5 ohm very high wattage (50W). Connect this in series with the transformer output and the rectifier ac input. Now put a high current (20A) switch ACROSS the resistor. To start..... Turn switch off, turn on mains, motor will start slowly then throw on the new switch after a few seconds Putting these on the AC side NOT the DC side and that will save the switch contacts from weilding themselves together!! Steve Balstone Cheers sounds like a nice easy way of getting it going, will put it on a rely and push button to short out the resistor, so cannot be started with the resistor shorted, and put a thermal switch on the relay so if button not pressed then unit shuts down before getting too hot Cheers again Phil > > > > please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical > > > > engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Steve Balstone > Cheers sounds like a nice easy way of getting it going, will put it on > a rely and push button to short out the resistor, so cannot be started > with the resistor shorted, and put a thermal switch on the relay so if > button not pressed then unit shuts down before getting too hot If you move that relay to the primary side, you will not need such large contacts. The resistor will need to be about 200 ohms, in that case. If left on, it could produce almost 300 watts of heat. But this reduces the contact current to about 1 amp. On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 10:51:28 -0400, in message <gL-dnbO169EOMQfZnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@adelphia.com>, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> scribed: >> Cheers sounds like a nice easy way of getting it going, will put it on >> a rely and push button to short out the resistor, so cannot be started [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >case. If left on, it could produce almost 300 watts of heat. But >this reduces the contact current to about 1 amp. This brings to mind an interesting story. I used to write and maintain software for automatic testing of electronic circuit cards. One particular card had a "soft start" circuit similar to this, where a pair of resistors were in the path at initialization, then shorted by relay action some milliseconds later. The original test software author neglected to program the shorting relays after turn-on. Cards were being sent to software as defective, with comments such as "smoked resistors," "resistors glowed red" and so on. The resistors were hardy wire-wound types, so showed no signs of damage when the circuit was cold. The cards routinely were returned to the system with no defect noted. This started a circular process that took a bit of time to figure out! >>>please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical >>>engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Phil Yes there is, as discussed. However, it may well be that the limited current will prevent your motor from starting. Then it's cook the motor, cook the circuit time. Ed >> Cheers for that , Sounds like that is the problem, is there any way to >> limit the intial current draw, a coil or somthing like that ? >Yes there is, as discussed. However, it may well >be that the limited current will prevent your motor >from starting. Then it's cook the motor, cook the >circuit time. Yeah, this could depend on how much torque the motor is required to have at startup. If there was a way to limit the torque load until the motor is turning, i.e. a clutch on the load, this might both allow a soft-start circuit to work, and at the same time eliminate the need for it. > please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical > engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Phil switches on the primary side of the transformer can be dirty and thus generate some high voltage spikes on the secondary side when switched. i guess the question here is, does this happen if you simply turn on the supply with no motor load on it? also, motors can be very inductive and having no capacitor in the circuit can generate some nice HV energy if you are getting arcs in the switching process. i would try 2 things., a small non polarized cap on the switch contacts and one on the secondary side ! something like a .1 ceramic with the proper handling voltage. and for the output of the bridge a larger cap to help suppress the pulse. we had the same problem at work with a simple DC motor on a Varistat with a bridge rectifier. , some times just turning on the unit if the motor was on a light or heavy start, it would short the bridge. you may also want to look at getting some TVS diodes (transient voltage suppression), don't use MOV's because they only work x number of times before they short. diodes/rectifiers have 0.6 volt on the average cutoff of no current flow, this lack of load can allow for the xformer to generate some nice HV with noisy switches and out of phase switching. because the pulse width is generally short and wiring in your application after the bridge produces some nice inductive reactance compind with the motor, HV could simply be able to jump the diodes voltage limits and short for that moment. the only other thing i can think of is that you have a heavy starting load on your motor? if the motor starts quickly then the rectifier should handle that. i would at least try to use a 20 amp fast blow fuse on the output. if you blow that on start up, then you have way too much starting torque in which case you should have a bigger unit or current limited supply. but try the caps first. i think that will cure your problem.  SignatureReal Programmers Do things like this. http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5 > switches on the primary side of the transformer can be > dirty and thus generate some high voltage spikes on the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > which case you should have a bigger unit or current limited supply. > but try the caps first. i think that will cure your problem. The bridge rectifier shorts out any motor inductive current, so that is no problem. I don't that the transformer will generate anything damaging with the motor connected across the rectifier. The main power switch will have no inrush spike (caused by transformer core saturation from the last power off half cycle being in the same direction as the first one on power up) if there will be a 200 ohm resistor in series for some time period. The contact that shorts that out always has 200 ohms across it to act as a spark suppressor. I see no problems if the primary side contacts are rated for 5 amps or so. > The bridge rectifier shorts out any motor inductive current, so that is > no problem. I don't that the transformer will generate anything [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > across it to act as a spark suppressor. I see no problems if the > primary side contacts are rated for 5 amps or so. say what you want, that was a cure we did to solve a long nasty problem that was given to us after to many times of that part of the equipment being down. used a set of HV probes on the scope to monitor this problem and it was exactly that. out of phase/noisy contacts on the primary side randomly generating HV pulses combined with motor the bridge didn't like. the other guys try to keep a note on that equipment to instruct the operators to make sure the variac was down to zero before starting ! , but like any one else that works in a production type job they don't give a crap about machinery. when testing with just the motor on line with no caps, i was getting aprox 2000 V or more pulse generated when testing across the bridged. that is the AC-DC leg of the bridge., remove the motor load and i only saw a aprox 1/4 of that which the bridge seem to handle ok. put the .1 mica caps on the switch, secondary side and one on the +&- output along with a small DC cap, switching noise gone, no HV over that which was suppose to be there. and that unit has been running with the same bridge for at least 3 or more years now. if you read a lot of the instruction manuals for drives or sensitive electronics, they will tell you to not! switch the primary side of a transformer feed because of this problem. switching the secondary side is much better to avoid this damaging noise. higher end electronics have suppression components on the line to remove that noise but a lot of the low end simple mini drives do not go to far when protecting it self from this kind of damage in which case you should be using a set of contacts to feed the drive at its shortest point. many supplies also use series inductors/chokes with a cap to remove this problem. SignatureReal Programmers Do things like this. http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5 >> The bridge rectifier shorts out any motor inductive current, so that >> is no problem. I don't that the transformer will generate anything [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > many supplies also use series inductors/chokes with a cap to remove > this problem. I would rather see an X capacitor of a microfarad or so across the primary. On 22 Jun 2006 04:25:47 -0700, in message <1150975547.206690.297970@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>, indgepr@supanet.com scribed: >please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical >engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >hot but has a heat sink and fan from an old PC connected. but it >allways blows when you turn it on, not when it is running I agree with what's been posted so far, that you could either beef up your bridge diodes, or create a "soft start" circuit at the primary. But I also notice that you haven't indicated that you have any filter capacitors as part of your design. I wonder if some smoothing at the DC output might be a good idea? (snip) > ...But I also > notice that you haven't indicated that you have any filter capacitors as > part of your design. I wonder if some smoothing at the DC output might be > a good idea? He has an inductive filter. The motor inductance averages the effect of the voltage wave. On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:32:49 -0400, in message <l7ednf6sPIWMbAPZnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@adelphia.com>, John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> scribed: >(snip) >> ...But I also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >He has an inductive filter. The motor inductance averages the effect >of the voltage wave. OK, something to study up on. Motors have always been spooky to me. > (snip) >> ...But I also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He has an inductive filter. The motor inductance averages the effect > of the voltage wave. it seems to me that doing that would soak up some of those voltage spikes that the experts have been blaming for the rectifier failure. it probably doesn't need capacitors of a size to fill the valleys of the rectified AC, just something to soak up the spikes. the experts were saying to put the capacitirs on the primary... I don't see why they couldn't go after the rectifier... Bye. Jasen > please forgive the supidity of this question but I am a mechanical > engineer and have very linited knowledge of electronics. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Phil When you first start a motor, it draws a *huge* amount of current with respect to the current it draws once it is up to speed. At start up, you want to be able to deliver that relatively hugh current - and soft start does the opposite. The motor needs that current to get started properly. Restricting it with a soft start may cook the both the motor and the powersupply. Build or buy a supply that can deliver the needed start current. Maybe an auto battery charger - some of them have a very high current spring return "start" position on the charge selector switch. You could wire in a relay that transfers for a second or two to provide that "blast" of current. I say maybe, because I don't know how those chargers provide that starting current, so further investigation would be needed. Even better would be to use an auto battery which can supply hundreds of amps for the brief startup period. There's no maybe in that solution. Ed > When you first start a motor, it draws a *huge* > amount of current with respect to the current it > draws once it is up to speed. At start up, you > want to be able to deliver that relatively hugh > current - and soft start does the opposite. The > motor needs that current to get started properly. (snip) The motor torque is roughly proportional to the current, so limiting the current to no more than full speed current just slows the initial acceleration, unless there is some break away static friction or other starting torque peak added to the inertial one. The O.P. said nothing about being in a hurry to get the motors moving. >>When you first start a motor, it draws a *huge* >>amount of current with respect to the current it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > acceleration, unless there is some break away static friction or other > starting torque peak added to the inertial one. You need some minimum torque to get the motor going, at all. If there is insufficient torque, it just sits there cooking. Full speed current is a small percentage of starting current, and isn't even a valid figure. An unloaded motor vs a loaded motor comes to mind. The valid figure is FLA - full load amps. Compare FLA with LRA. LRA (locked rotor amps) is the startup current - the current the motor draws when it is stationary - and can be huge with respect to the FLA (full load amps) - as much as 6 times FLA. And who knows how much greater it will be vs full speed amps, which is meaningless. If the motor sits there drawing full speed current and not moving, there's no airflow, so not only is it drawing LRA, it is not being cooled by air movement its spinning would cause via the attached fan, or even just the armature if there is no fan incorporated with the motor. The posts recommending soft start - and not pointing out the above - are playing fast and loose with the OP's motor. Soft start, *properly* applied, is a good thing. It may well be that something posted might work. But the warning that it could cause the motor to cook stands. The issue is not about getting the motor up to speed quickly, it is about avoiding the situation where the motor doesn't start at all. Ed > The O.P. said nothing about being in a hurry to get the motors moving. >>> When you first start a motor, it draws a *huge* >>> amount of current with respect to the current it [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >> The O.P. said nothing about being in a hurry to get the motors >> moving. It's actually pretty easy to determine the startup current, just measure the DC resistance of the motor. Since it is only a fraction of an Ohm, you can do that with a constant current of 1A. If you do not have a constant current supply available, you can take a new AA battery, a multimeter with 20A range and a second voltmeter across the motor. Block the rotor so it cannot turn and then calculate the inner resistance by ohms law. Signatureciao Ban Apricale, Italy >>> When you first start a motor, it draws a *huge* >>> amount of current with respect to the current it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > at all. If there is insufficient torque, it just > sits there cooking. It sounds like you are talking about AC induction motors. The energy transfer mechanism from stator to rotor in those gets very inefficient when the motor is stalled, and they generate a large amount of heat (relative to the torque produced). But DC motors happily stall with reasonable rate of temperature rise, as long as the current is limited to no more than full rated. The only thing that will get very hot is the big resistor limiting the current. > Full speed current is a small > percentage of starting current, and isn't even > a valid figure. For A DC motor it is. Full load current will produce full load torque, whether the motor is standing still or running at full speed. > An unloaded motor vs a loaded > motor comes to mind. The valid figure is FLA - [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with respect to the FLA (full load amps) - as much > as 6 times FLA. For AC induction motors, the ratio can be higher than that, depending on the class of the motor. For DC (permanent magnet) motors the locked rotor current is the voltage divided by the armature resistance. > And who knows how much greater it > will be vs full speed amps, which is meaningless. If full load torque will turn the motor and load from a stand still, then full load current will turn it, since it produces that torque. There is a very different story for AC induction motors. > If the motor sits there drawing full speed current > and not moving, there's no airflow, so not only is > it drawing LRA, Not if the current is externally limited, and that is the point of this exercise. > it is not being cooled by air movement > its spinning would cause via the attached fan, or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > might work. But the warning that it could cause the > motor to cook stands. The O.P. asked about testing motors. That implies somebody is testing them (watching the test). If the motor doesn't start, it has failed the test. But he wants to preserve the test power supply from higher than normal current during that occurrence (and for the brief instant it takes good motors to get moving). > The issue is not about getting > the motor up to speed quickly, it is about avoiding > the situation where the motor doesn't start at all. How much worse would it be, if the motor could not turn, from some external mechanical problem, if the current was not externally limited, but went all the way to V(supply)/R(armature)? I think a smoking resistor is better than a smoking motor or smoking diodes or smoking transformer. >>>> When you first start a motor, it draws a *huge* >>>> amount of current with respect to the current it [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] >> the motor up to speed quickly, it is about avoiding >> the situation where the motor doesn't start at all. Thanks! Now I see I had it completey wrong. I appreciate the corrections. > How much worse would it be, if the motor could not turn, from some > external mechanical problem, if the current was not externally limited, > but went all the way to V(supply)/R(armature)? I think a smoking > resistor is better than a smoking motor or smoking diodes or smoking > transformer. Yup. All I could see was a bunch of responses that were intended to protect the diode at the expense of the motor, and I'd rather blow the diode than the motor. Ed |
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