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Sign of Genius

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BretCahill@peoplepc.com - 22 Aug 2008 21:57 GMT
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

-- Jonathan Swift
John Larkin - 22 Aug 2008 22:05 GMT
>"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
>
>-- Jonathan Swift

So, what's your day job?

John
Jeff Higgins - 23 Aug 2008 00:26 GMT
>>"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>>sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
>>
>>-- Jonathan Swift
>
> So, what's your day job?

Men are happy to be laughed at for their humor, but not for their folly.

Jonathan Swift

must have missed the OP
QuantumDot - 23 Aug 2008 02:08 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> John

Dry cleaner.
John Fields - 22 Aug 2008 22:40 GMT
>"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

---
And now, Mr. Cahill and Mr. Speed, would you both take these pointy
hats and sit in a corner, facing the line where the walls join.

NO, NO, NO!!!

_Different_ corners.

 
JF
QuantumDot - 23 Aug 2008 02:08 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> JF

No... you are not supposed to stuff those hats there.
Bret Cahill - 22 Aug 2008 23:13 GMT
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

> -- Jonathan Swift

This flushes 'em out like magic.

Bret Cahill
John Fields - 23 Aug 2008 01:45 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
>
>> -- Jonathan Swift
>
>This flushes 'em out like magic.

---
The dunces?

Indeed.

Your own testimony bears witness to that fact.


JF
John - 23 Aug 2008 16:45 GMT
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
> -- Jonathan Swift

And rule one of a net kook is that he begins his posits by claiming
conspiracies of authority. Rather like god began the ten commandments.

The dunce cap originated during the Inquisition. Victims released to the
 public after their trials were to wear it to distinguish themselves as
persons in the process of reintegrating to society.
John Larkin - 23 Aug 2008 01:52 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Bret Cahill

Just because you're obnoxious doesn't make you a genius. Or a tractor
driver, even.

John
QuantumDot - 23 Aug 2008 02:09 GMT
>>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> John

I'm sure he'd be good as a plow behind said tractor.
Michael A. Terrell - 23 Aug 2008 05:32 GMT
> >>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> >>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I'm sure he'd be good as a plow behind said tractor.

  He wouldn't even make good fertilizer.

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

stan - 23 Aug 2008 18:45 GMT
>> >>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> >>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>    He wouldn't even make good fertilizer.

I might have to question this point. Bullshit properly treated is a
pretty good fertilizer. In fact we may have just solved the day job
question raised earlier.
Michael A. Terrell - 23 Aug 2008 20:46 GMT
> >> >>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> >> >>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> pretty good fertilizer. In fact we may have just solved the day job
> question raised earlier.

  The problem is that he has recycled his bullshit in his head so many
times it has become a klien bottle, which can not be composted, or
processed.

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7G
GLD&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=klein+bottle&spell=1
>

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

stan - 24 Aug 2008 05:18 GMT
>> >    He wouldn't even make good fertilizer.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> times it has become a klien bottle, which can not be composted, or
> processed.

You're probably right, fertilizer is too big a step up. Maybe toxic
waste is closer?
Michael A. Terrell - 24 Aug 2008 05:55 GMT
> >> >    He wouldn't even make good fertilizer.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> You're probably right, fertilizer is too big a step up. Maybe toxic
> waste is closer?

  Yes, unless he's been dropped from the EPA's 'Superfund' lists.
OTOH, he's so dense that he could be our solution to nuclear waste.
Feed it to him, and nothing would ever escape.

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
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The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

turtoni - 24 Aug 2008 06:15 GMT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuxWVcqkOQY
John Fields - 23 Aug 2008 13:44 GMT
>>>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>>>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>I'm sure he'd be good as a plow behind said tractor.

---
Too soft.  He might make good fertilizer though.

JF
Robert Monsen - 23 Aug 2008 20:19 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
>
>> -- Jonathan Swift
>
>This flushes 'em out like magic.

Ah, he is a plumber!

>Bret Cahill
Michael A. Terrell - 23 Aug 2008 20:48 GMT
> >> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> >> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Ah, he is a plumber!

  No. They fired him becasue he spent all day swimming in the septic
tank.

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
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The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

Eeyore - 22 Aug 2008 23:26 GMT
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

I knew a guy once thought amongst other curious things that mp3 bit
rates were *higher* than CD and gave better quality.

He was nominally the department's 'technical manager'. He had it in for
me too.

Graham
QuantumDot - 23 Aug 2008 02:09 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Graham

As long as it ain't the good 'ol flame war about vinyl vs CD.
Eeyore - 24 Aug 2008 00:01 GMT
> Eeyore said:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> As long as it ain't the good 'ol flame war about vinyl vs CD.

Strangely as it happens, he has been known to restore original juke boxes.

Graham
Dan Drake - 27 Aug 2008 20:30 GMT
> >> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> >> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> As long as it ain't the good 'ol flame war about vinyl vs CD.

Hey, but you know if you paint your CDs GREEN ...

One of my most disappointing experiences came when I addressed a note to
large general-interest (i.e., time-wasting) mail list at work where this
had come up, commenting on the fact that testing a reducion of error rates
on a *digital* medium needn't be done by "hey, it sounds better" but by
actua *digital* instrumentation, and getting blank stares and stupid
answers -- in a technoid company, digital category. And not from dumb
sales and management people.

Signature

Dan Drake
dd@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com

jjs - 27 Aug 2008 21:01 GMT
> One of my most disappointing experiences came when I addressed a note to
> large general-interest (i.e., time-wasting) mail list at work where this
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> answers -- in a technoid company, digital category. And not from dumb
> sales and management people.

Am I understanding properly that you suggested that they use an analog
instrument to test error rates of a digital instrument?
Dan Drake - 28 Aug 2008 23:47 GMT
> > One of my most disappointing experiences came when I addressed a note to
> > large general-interest (i.e., time-wasting) mail list at work where this
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Am I understanding properly that you suggested that they use an analog
> instrument to test error rates of a digital instrument?

Sorry, my rant was much too condensed to be intelligible.

No, THEY thought that by gum, it DID sound better if you coated it with
green marking pen, and there was mumbling about reducing errors. I
suggested that if youreally were interested in error rates on a digital
medium, you could instrment the digital circuitry to count the errors;
that's when I got uncomprehending nonsense. (And I had not been so terse
on that occasion. Quite uncharacterustic, in fact.)


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Dan Drake
dd@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com

John Fields - 30 Aug 2008 23:16 GMT
>> > One of my most disappointing experiences came when I addressed a note to
>> > large general-interest (i.e., time-wasting) mail list at work where this
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>that's when I got uncomprehending nonsense. (And I had not been so terse
>on that occasion. Quite uncharacterustic, in fact.)

---
"Uncharacterustic", huh?

I like that, since it smacks of the city. :-)


JF
Michael A. Terrell - 28 Aug 2008 02:09 GMT
> > >> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> > >> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> answers -- in a technoid company, digital category. And not from dumb
> sales and management people.

  They wouldn't know a BER test from a Fireberd. ;-)

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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
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The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

Jon Slaughter - 23 Aug 2008 02:06 GMT
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
>
> -- Jonathan Swift

"A true genius never has any need to appear in a newsgroup to try to prove
his genius."

-- Jonathan Slaughter
Robert Monsen - 23 Aug 2008 20:28 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>-- Jonathan Slaughter

"I've always believed no matter how many shots I miss, I'm going to
make the next one. "

-- Johathan Swift
John Larkin - 23 Aug 2008 20:32 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>-- Jonathan Slaughter

"Generalizations don't mean much."

- John Larkin
QuantumDot - 23 Aug 2008 02:08 GMT
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
>
> -- Jonathan Swift

This quote is usually self-applied by fools and kooks. Those who are
truly insightful are also wise enough not to apply it publicly to
themselves.
John Larkin - 23 Aug 2008 04:17 GMT
>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>truly insightful are also wise enough not to apply it publicly to
>themselves.

It's not true anyhow. Shakespeare; Feynman; Einstein; Kovacs; Kelvin;
all revered in their time.

Can anybody name a real genius who was attacked by all available
dunces?

John
m II - 23 Aug 2008 04:32 GMT
> Can anybody name a real genius who was attacked by all available
> dunces?

Immanuel Velikowski

mike
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John Larkin - 23 Aug 2008 04:59 GMT
>> Can anybody name a real genius who was attacked by all available
>> dunces?
>
>Immanuel Velikowski
>
>mike

But the dunces love him.

John
BobW - 23 Aug 2008 05:06 GMT
>>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> John

Galileo.

Bob
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Rod Speed - 23 Aug 2008 05:15 GMT
>>>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
>>>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> Can anybody name a real genius who was attacked by all available
>> dunces?

> Galileo.

Nothing like all the available dunces knew anything about him.
rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com - 23 Aug 2008 17:44 GMT
On Aug 22, 10:06 pm, "BobW" <nimby_GIMME_SOME_S...@roadrunner.com>
wrote:

> >>> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this
> >>> sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Galileo.

One of the Great Myths of modern times was that Galileo was persecuted
for describing the truth of the planets.  He was in fact lightly
punished for being a tactless boor who could label a friend he knew
since childhood as an simpleton to advance point (even if that was not
what he meant to do).  Unfortunately for Galileo, that man he had
known since childhood was the pope, so Galileo was placed under house
arrest in a luxurious papal palace.  It was not what he said, but how
he said it.

Galileo's troubles was nearly fifty years after the papacy started to
sponsor astronomical research, in a big way.

The best way to describe Galileo is that, while he was scientifically
brilliant, he was sorely lacking in the people skills needed for
academic infighting.
Rod Speed - 23 Aug 2008 21:43 GMT
> On Aug 22, 10:06 pm, "BobW" <nimby_GIMME_SOME_S...@roadrunner.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>>> Can anybody name a real genius who was attacked by all available
>>> dunces?

>> Galileo.

> One of the Great Myths of modern times was that Galileo was persecuted
> for describing the truth of the planets.  He was in fact lightly
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> known since childhood was the pope, so Galileo was placed under house
> arrest in a luxurious papal palace.  It was not what he said, but how he said it.

How odd that Bruno got burnt at the stake.

> Galileo's troubles was nearly fifty years after the papacy
> started to sponsor astronomical research, in a big way.

And didnt like what that sponsoring produced.

> The best way to describe Galileo is that, while he was scientifically brilliant,
> he was sorely lacking in the people skills needed for academic infighting.

He did manage to do pretty well in that regard, avoided getting burnt at
the stake and ended up with a reasonably comfortable existence instead.
John Fields - 23 Aug 2008 22:37 GMT
>> On Aug 22, 10:06 pm, "BobW" <nimby_GIMME_SOME_S...@roadrunner.com>
>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
>And didnt like what that sponsoring produced.

---
And only a few years ago admitted that Geocentrism was wrong.

JF
Rod Speed - 23 Aug 2008 23:22 GMT
>>> On Aug 22, 10:06 pm, "BobW" <nimby_GIMME_SOME_S...@roadrunner.com>
>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>>
>> And didnt like what that sponsoring produced.

> And only a few years ago admitted that Geocentrism was wrong.

No they didnt. They actually admitted that they treated Galileo badly at that time.

And didnt have the balls to even mention Bruno.
John Fields - 25 Aug 2008 23:27 GMT
>> And only a few years ago admitted that Geocentrism was wrong.
>
>No they didnt. They actually admitted that they treated Galileo badly at that time.

---
At the heart of the bad treatment was Galileo's recalcitrance in
recanting his support of Copernicus' heliocentric system.

In the end, though, the church broke him and he did recant, so their
recent admission of guilt in treating him badly was tantamount to
their accepting Copernicus's geocentric system as true.
---

>And didnt have the balls to even mention Bruno.

---
Not true.

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

"Four hundred years after his execution, official expression of
"profound sorrow" and acknowledgement of error at Bruno's condemnation
to death was made, during the papacy of John Paul II."

JF
Rod Speed - 25 Aug 2008 23:40 GMT
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>> And only a few years ago admitted that Geocentrism was wrong.

>> No they didnt. They actually admitted that they treated Galileo badly at that time.

> At the heart of the bad treatment was Galileo's recalcitrance
> in recanting his support of Copernicus' heliocentric system.

Yes, but even those fools had managed to work out that the
earth did indeed revolve around the sun LONG before that
most recent admission of how badly Galileo had been treated.

> In the end, though, the church broke him and he did recant, so
> their recent admission of guilt in treating him badly was tantamount
> to their accepting Copernicus's geocentric system as true.

Yes, but even those fools had managed to work out that the
earth did indeed revolve around the sun LONG before that
most recent admission of how badly Galileo had been treated.

>> And didnt have the balls to even mention Bruno.

> Not true.

Fraid so.

> From:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

> "Four hundred years after his execution, official expression of
> "profound sorrow" and acknowledgement of error at Bruno's
> condemnation to death was made, during the papacy of John Paul II."

That wasnt when they fessed up to the fools they had made of themselves over Galileo.
Dan Drake - 27 Aug 2008 20:22 GMT
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> earth did indeed revolve around the sun LONG before that
> most recent admission of how badly Galileo had been treated.

It was not in dispute in 1822, when they *finally* *completely* cleared
Galileo's work for unrestricted publication; before that, when they made
some moves in that direction, it's much less clear, despite frequent
claims that hte Church had it all settled in 1700-whatever.

Department of satirical prophecy: Galileo wrote a note in the margin of a
copy of the Dialogue that the theologians should take care, because later
on it might be decided that Earth really does move, and then the ones
holding to the old view might have to be persecuted as heretics! So, in
1822, there was a stubborn censor who would not clear the work for
publication, and the Holy Office (Inquisition) had to threaten him!

[Sorry about the two screamers, but this is just too much fun.]

See Annibale Fantoli, "Galileo: For Copernicanism and for the Church", p.
357. Published by the Vatican Observatory, by the way. <big grin>

> >> And didnt have the balls to even mention Bruno.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> That wasnt when they fessed up to the fools they had made of themselves over Galileo.

Has anybody read what they actually *said* in their formal statement (plus
other pronunciamenti at the time)? I haven't, so it would be nice to hear
specifics from someone who had. The text that happens to reside in a
WIkipedia article at any given time is, sadly enough, not an authority
anyone could rely on.

Signature

Dan Drake
dd@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com

Rod Speed - 27 Aug 2008 21:43 GMT
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>> And only a few years ago admitted that Geocentrism was wrong.

>>>> No they didnt. They actually admitted that they treated Galileo badly at that time.

>>> At the heart of the bad treatment was Galileo's recalcitrance
>>> in recanting his support of Copernicus' heliocentric system.

>> Yes, but even those fools had managed to work out that the
>> earth did indeed revolve around the sun LONG before that
>> most recent admission of how badly Galileo had been treated.

>>> In the end, though, the church broke him and he did recant,
>>> so their recent admission of guilt in treating him badly was
>>> tantamount to their accepting Copernicus's geocentric system as true.

>> Yes, but even those fools had managed to work out that the
>> earth did indeed revolve around the sun LONG before that
>> most recent admission of how badly Galileo had been treated.

> It was not in dispute in 1822, when they *finally* *completely*
> cleared Galileo's work for unrestricted publication;

Thats a different matter entirely to what was being discussed, when they
had enough of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

> before that, when they made some moves in that direction, it's much less clear,
> despite frequent claims that hte Church had it all settled in 1700-whatever.

Clearly they had decided that the earth does revolve around the sun LONG before
they finally admitted that they had treated Galileo rather badly just a few years ago.

> Department of satirical prophecy: Galileo wrote a note in the margin of
> a copy of the Dialogue that the theologians should take care, because
> later on it might be decided that Earth really does move, and then the
> ones holding to the old view might have to be persecuted as heretics!

And it was that sort of thing that did ensure that it took them a long
time to have the balls to admit that they had treated him quite badly.

> So, in 1822, there was a stubborn censor who would not clear the work for publication,

Thats a different matter entirely to what was being discussed, when they
had enough of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

> and the Holy Office (Inquisition) had to threaten him!

Sure, but all bureaucracys are like that.

> [Sorry about the two screamers, but this is just too much fun.]

> See Annibale Fantoli, "Galileo: For Copernicanism and for the Church",
> p. 357. Published by the Vatican Observatory, by the way. <big grin>

And that institution alone is clear evidence that they had enough
of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

>>>> And didnt have the balls to even mention Bruno.

>>> Not true.

>> Fraid so.

>>> From:

>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

>>> "Four hundred years after his execution, official expression of
>>> "profound sorrow" and acknowledgement of error at Bruno's
>>> condemnation to death was made, during the papacy of John Paul II."

>> That wasnt when they fessed up to the fools they had made of themselves over Galileo.

> Has anybody read what they actually *said* in their formal
> statement (plus other pronunciamenti at the time)?

Yeah, I did at the time when they did that.

> I haven't, so it would be nice to hear specifics from someone who had.

Too long ago to remember the detail.

> The text that happens to reside in a WIkipedia article at any given
> time is, sadly enough, not an authority anyone could rely on.

From memory its available on the Vatican site.
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nmcenter/sci-cp/sci-9211.html
Dan Drake - 28 Aug 2008 23:58 GMT
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Thats a different matter entirely to what was being discussed, when they
> had enough of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

I don't know quite what you're talking about, or why you seem to think
you're disagreeing with me. Perhaps the "it" was too ambiguous in
referent.

Anyway, what they completely cleared in 1822 (and had NOT in the 1700s)
was the heliocentrism, not the rights & wrongs of the treatment of
Galileo; obviously the latter could not have been at issue then, as it was
not settled till the 1990s.

> > before that, when they made some moves in that direction, it's much less clear,
> > despite frequent claims that hte Church had it all settled in 1700-whatever.
>
> Clearly they had decided that the earth does revolve around the sun LONG before
> they finally admitted that they had treated Galileo rather badly just a few years ago.

Yes. 1822, in fact. Before that, of course, everyone knew it, but they had
not agreed to admit it.

> > Department of satirical prophecy: Galileo wrote a note in the margin of
> > a copy of the Dialogue that the theologians should take care, because
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And it was that sort of thing that did ensure that it took them a long
> time to have the balls to admit that they had treated him quite badly.

Yes indeed, never be so nasty as to speak unpleasant truths about people
who lock you up and ban your work. But I will emphasize the *truth* of
what he said. To call it self-fulfilling would be trivializing Church
politics pretty severely.

> > So, in 1822, there was a stubborn censor who would not clear the work for publication,
>
> Thats a different matter entirely to what was being discussed, when they
> had enough of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

At this point, I don't know when your "when" is. But, as stated, they did
know in 1822; that's what I was talking about in repsonse to your comment
that they knew long before 1990.

> > and the Holy Office (Inquisition) had to threaten him!
>
> Sure, but all bureaucracys are like that.

Duh. But of course threatening him to get him to stop the geocentric
foolishness wasn't that bad an idea from some points of view.

> > [Sorry about the two screamers, but this is just too much fun.]
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And that institution alone is clear evidence that they had enough
> of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

Sure thing. As I said, they knew that in 1822, and of course the Jesuits
knew it long before that, probably even before the half-baked permission
to publish Galileo a century earlier.

> >>>> And didnt have the balls to even mention Bruno.
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> From memory its available on the Vatican site.
> http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nmcenter/sci-cp/sci-9211.html 

Signature

Dan Drake
dd@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com

Rod Speed - 29 Aug 2008 01:19 GMT
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>>>> And only a few years ago admitted that Geocentrism was wrong.

>>>>>> No they didnt. They actually admitted that they treated Galileo badly at that time.

>>>>> At the heart of the bad treatment was Galileo's recalcitrance
>>>>> in recanting his support of Copernicus' heliocentric system.

>>>> Yes, but even those fools had managed to work out that the
>>>> earth did indeed revolve around the sun LONG before that
>>>> most recent admission of how badly Galileo had been treated.

>>>>> In the end, though, the church broke him and he did recant, so their
>>>>> recent admission of guilt in treating him badly was tantamount to
>>>>> their accepting Copernicus's geocentric system as true.

>>>> Yes, but even those fools had managed to work out that the
>>>> earth did indeed revolve around the sun LONG before that
>>>> most recent admission of how badly Galileo had been treated.

>>> It was not in dispute in 1822, when they *finally* *completely*
>>> cleared Galileo's work for unrestricted publication;

>> Thats a different matter entirely to what was being discussed, when they
>> had enough of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

> I don't know quite what you're talking about,

John's original, still right at the top, is just plain wrong on WHEN that collection
of silly senile old farts realised that the earth does in fact revolved around the sun.

> or why you seem to think you're disagreeing with me.

I wasnt disagreeing with you there, just pointing out that that wasnt what was being discussed.

What was actually being discussed was when that collection of silly senile
old farts realised that the earth does in fact revolved around the sun.

> Perhaps the "it" was too ambiguous in referent.

The problem isnt with the *it*, the problem is with the rest of it that like I said has no relevance to when
that collection of silly senile old farts realised that the earth does in fact revolved around the sun.

> Anyway, what they completely cleared in 1822 (and had NOT in the 1700s) was the heliocentrism,

They realised that the earth did revolve around the sun well before 1822.

> not the rights & wrongs of the treatment of Galileo; obviously the latter
> could not have been at issue then, as it was not settled till the 1990s.

Thats wrong too. That was the date on which one of the silly senile old farts
actually had the balls to fess up to how badly Galileo had been treated.

>>> before that, when they made some moves in that direction,
>>> it's much less clear, despite frequent claims that hte Church
>>> had it all settled in 1700-whatever.

>> Clearly they had decided that the earth does revolve around the sun LONG before
>> they finally admitted that they had treated Galileo rather badly just a few years ago.

> Yes. 1822, in fact.

Nope, well before that too.

> Before that, of course, everyone knew it, but they had not agreed to admit it.

Thats wrong too.

>>> Department of satirical prophecy: Galileo wrote a note in the margin of
>>> a copy of the Dialogue that the theologians should take care, because
>>> later on it might be decided that Earth really does move, and then the
>>> ones holding to the old view might have to be persecuted as heretics!

>> And it was that sort of thing that did ensure that it took them a long
>> time to have the balls to admit that they had treated him quite badly.

> Yes indeed, never be so nasty as to speak unpleasant truths about people
> who lock you up and ban your work. But I will emphasize the *truth* of what he
> said. To call it self-fulfilling would be trivializing Church politics pretty severely.

I didnt do anything of the sort.

>>> So, in 1822, there was a stubborn censor who would not clear the work for publication,

>> Thats a different matter entirely to what was being discussed, when they
>> had enough of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

> At this point, I don't know when your "when" is.

No one does. Essentially because it wasnt formally documented.

> But, as stated, they did know in 1822;

They actually knew well before that.

> that's what I was talking about in repsonse to your comment that they knew long before 1990.

And I pointed out that they knew well before 1822 too.

>>> and the Holy Office (Inquisition) had to threaten him!

>> Sure, but all bureaucracys are like that.

> Duh. But of course threatening him to get him to stop the geocentric
> foolishness wasn't that bad an idea from some points of view.

Its never a good idea when the result is inevitable.

>>> [Sorry about the two screamers, but this is just too much fun.]

>>> See Annibale Fantoli, "Galileo: For Copernicanism and for the Church",
>>> p. 357. Published by the Vatican Observatory, by the way. <big grin>

>> And that institution alone is clear evidence that they had enough
>> of a clue to realise that the earth did revolve around the sun.

> Sure thing. As I said, they knew that in 1822, and
> of course the Jesuits knew it long before that,

Precisely, so the 1822 date isnt really relevant.

> probably even before the half-baked permission to publish Galileo a century earlier.

I bet plenty of them had enough of a clue to consider the evidence while
Galileo was being silenced and had enough of a clue to not say that publicly.

The evidence was very unambiguous at that time.

>>>>>> And didnt have the balls to even mention Bruno.

>>>>> Not true.

>>>> Fraid so.

>>>>> From:

>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

>>>>> "Four hundred years after his execution, official expression of
>>>>> "profound sorrow" and acknowledgement of error at Bruno's
>>>>> condemnation to death was made, during the papacy of John Paul II."

>>>> That wasnt when they fessed up to the fools they had made of themselves over Galileo.

>>> Has anybody read what they actually *said* in their formal
>>> statement (plus other pronunciamenti at the time)?

>> Yeah, I did at the time when they did that.

>>> I haven't, so it would be nice to hear specifics from someone who had.

>> Too long ago to remember the detail.

>>> The text that happens to reside in a WIkipedia article at any given
>>> time is, sadly enough, not an authority anyone could rely on.

>> From memory its available on the Vatican site.
>> http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nmcenter/sci-cp/sci-9211.html
DB - 29 Aug 2008 04:27 GMT
Russia may cut off oil flow to the West
<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/08/29/cnrussia129.xml>

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last Updated: 9:26pm BST 28/08/2008

Fears are mounting that Russia may restrict oil deliveries to Western
Europe over coming days, in response to the threat of EU sanctions and
Nato naval actions in the Black Sea.

Any such move would be a dramatic escalation of the Georgia crisis and
play havoc with the oil markets.

Reports have begun to circulate in Moscow that Russian oil companies are
under orders from the Kremlin to prepare for a supply cut to Germany and
Poland through the Druzhba (Friendship) pipeline. It is believed that
executives from lead-producer LUKoil have been put on weekend alert.

"They have been told to be ready to cut off supplies as soon as Monday,"
claimed a high-level business source, speaking to The Daily Telegraph.
Any move would be timed to coincide with an emergency EU summit in
Brussels, where possible sanctions against Russia are on the agenda.
# More on oil

Any evidence that the Kremlin is planning to use the oil weapon to
intimidate the West could inflame global energy markets. US crude prices
jumped to $119 a barrel yesterday on reports of hurricane warnings in
the Gulf of Mexico, before falling back slightly.
advertisement

Global supplies remain tight despite the economic downturn engulfing
North America, Europe and Japan. A supply cut at this delicate juncture
could drive crude prices much higher, possibly to record levels of $150
or even $200 a barrel.

With US and European credit spreads already trading at levels of extreme
stress, a fresh oil spike would rock financial markets. The Kremlin is
undoubtedly aware that it exercises extraordinary leverage, if it
strikes right now.

Such action would be seen as economic warfare but Russia has been
infuriated by Nato meddling in its "backyard" and threats of punitive
measures by the EU. Foreign minister Sergei Lavrov yesterday accused EU
diplomats of a "sick imagination".

Armed with $580bn of foreign reserves (the world's third largest),
Russia appears willing to risk its reputation as a reliable actor on the
international stage in order to pursue geo-strategic ambitions.

"We are not afraid of anything, including the prospect of a Cold War,"
said President Dmitry Medvedev.

The Polish government said yesterday that Russian deliveries were still
arriving smoothly. It was not aware of any move to limit supplies. The
European Commission's energy directorate said it had received no
warnings of retaliatory cuts.

Russia has repeatedly restricted oil and gas deliveries over recent
years as a means of diplomatic pressure, though Moscow usually explains
away the reduction by referring to technical upsets or pipeline maintenance.

Last month, deliveries to the Czech Republic through the Druzhba
pipeline were cut after Prague signed an agreement with the US to
install an anti-missile shield. Czech officials say supplies fell 40pc
for July. The pipeline managers Transneft said the shortfall was due to
"technical and commercial reasons".

Supplies were cut to Estonia in May 2007 following a dispute with Russia
over the removal of Red Army memorials. It was blamed on a "repair
operation". Latvia was cut off in 2005 and 2006 in a battle for control
over the Ventspils terminals. "There are ways to camouflage it," said
Vincent Sabathier, a senior fellow at the Centre for Strategic and
International Studies in Washington.

"They never say, 'we're going to cut off your oil because we don't like
your foreign policy'."

A senior LUKoil official in Moscow said he was unaware of any plans to
curtail deliveries. The Kremlin declined to comment.

London-listed LUKoil is run by Russian billionaire Vagit Alekperov, who
holds 20pc of the shares. LUKoil produces 2m barrels per day (b/d), or
2.5pc of world supply. It exports one fifth of its output to Germany and
Poland.

Although Russia would lose much-needed revenue if it cut deliveries, the
Kremlin might hope to recoup some of the money from higher prices.
Indeed, it could enhance income for a while if the weapon was calibrated
skilfully. Russia exports roughly 6.5m b/d, supplying the EU with 26pc
of its total oil needs and 29pc of its gas.

A cut of just 1m b/d in global supply – and a veiled threat of more to
come – would cause a major price spike.

It is unclear whether Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or other Opec producers have
enough spare capacity to plug the shortfall. "Russia is behaving in a
very erratic way," said James Woolsey, the former director of the CIA.
"There is a risk that they might do something like cutting oil to hurt
the world's democracies, if they get angry enough."

Mr Woolsey said the rapid move towards electric cars and other sources
of power in the US and Europe means Russia's ability to use the oil
weapon will soon be a diminishing asset. "Within a decade it will be
very hard for Russia to push us around," he told The Daily Telegraph.

It is widely assumed that Russia would cut gas supplies rather than oil
as a means of pressuring Europe. It is very hard to find alternative
sources of gas. But gas cuts would not hurt the United States. Oil is a
better weapon for striking at the broader Western world.

The price is global. The US economy could suffer serious damage from the
immediate knock-on effects.

While the Russian state is rich, the corporate sector is heavily reliant
on foreign investors. The internal bond market is tiny, with just $60bn
worth of ruble issues.

Russian companies raise their funds on the world capital markets.
Foreigners own half of the $1 trillion debt. Michael Ganske, Russia
expert at Commerzbank, said the country was now facing a liquidity
crunch. "Local investors are scared. They can see the foreigners
leaving, so now they won't touch anything either. The impact on the
capital markets is severe," he said.
BretCahill@peoplepc.com - 29 Aug 2008 15:18 GMT
> � Russia may cut off oil flow to the West

Pulling foreign investment might get complicated.

I'ld like to see how they set up the cost benefit risk analysis spread
sheet.

> <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/08/29/cnr...>
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Europe over coming days, in response to the threat of EU sanctions and
> Nato naval actions in the Black Sea.

. . .

> Russia has repeatedly restricted oil and gas deliveries over recent
> years as a means of diplomatic pressure, though Moscow usually explains
> away the reduction by referring to technical upsets or pipeline maintenance.

BP used that same excuse with the transAlaska pipeline.

Russia has combined the worst of the west with the worst of the east.

Bret Cahill
Rod Speed - 29 Aug 2008 19:20 GMT
>> ? Russia may cut off oil flow to the West
>
> Pulling foreign investment might get complicated.

> I'ld like to see how they set up the cost benefit risk analysis spread sheet.

They dont care about stuff like that.

They didnt bother with anything like that when they invaded Georgia.

>> <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/08/29/cnr...>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> Europe over coming days, in response to the threat of EU sanctions
>> and Nato naval actions in the Black Sea.

>> Russia has repeatedly restricted oil and gas deliveries over recent
>> years as a means of diplomatic pressure, though Moscow usually
>> explains away the reduction by referring to technical upsets or
>> pipeline maintenance.

> BP used that same excuse with the transAlaska pipeline.

> Russia has combined the worst of the west with the worst of the east.
Eeyore - 29 Aug 2008 20:48 GMT
>   Russia may cut off oil flow to the West

I bet that would make you happy.

Graham
DB - 31 Aug 2008 21:03 GMT
>>   Russia may cut off oil flow to the West
>
> I bet that would make you happy.

What is the wager?
John Fields - 31 Aug 2008 00:06 GMT
>John's original, still right at the top, is just plain wrong on WHEN that collection
>of silly senile old farts realised that the earth does in fact revolved around the sun.

---
Sorry for the confusion.

What I was referring to was the Roman Catholic Church's official
admission that Geocentrism was wrong and, AIUI, that acknowledgement
only occurred a few years ago.

Small comfort for Galileo, who knew he was right, beyond a shadow of
doubt, but was forced to perjure himself in order to not be killed by
the Nazis of that time.

And you, "Rod Speed", what do you have to offer?

JF
Rod Speed - 31 Aug 2008 02:27 GMT
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>> John's original, still right at the top, is just plain wrong
>> on WHEN that collection of silly senile old farts realised
>> that the earth does in fact revolved around the sun.

> Sorry for the confusion.

There is no confusion and there still isnt. You were and still are just plain wrong.

> What I was referring to was the Roman Catholic Church's
> official admission that Geocentrism was wrong

Yes, that was always clear.

> and, AIUI, that acknowledgement only occurred a few years ago.

And that is where you were always just plain wrong. It happened a LONG time before that.

Like I said, what actually happened only a few years ago, was that
they did officially admit that Galileo had been very badly treated.

> Small comfort for Galileo, who knew he was right, beyond a shadow of doubt,

And he wasnt alone in recognising that at that time. The evidence was very clear.

> but was forced to perjure himself

He didnt even perjure himself.

> in order to not be killed by the Nazis of that time.

You wouldnt know what a real Nazi was if one bit you on your lard arse.

> And you, "Rod Speed", what do you have to offer?

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.
John Fields - 31 Aug 2008 11:45 GMT
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>There is no confusion and there still isnt. You were and still are just plain wrong.

---
OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.
---

>> What I was referring to was the Roman Catholic Church's
>> official admission that Geocentrism was wrong
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>And that is where you were always just plain wrong. It happened a LONG time before that.

---
OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.
---

>Like I said, what actually happened only a few years ago, was that
>they did officially admit that Galileo had been very badly treated.

---
OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.
---

>> Small comfort for Galileo, who knew he was right, beyond a shadow of doubt,
>
>And he wasnt alone in recognising that at that time. The evidence was very clear.

---
That's not the point.
---

>> but was forced to perjure himself
>
>He didnt even perjure himself.

---
In order to save his life, he was forced to lie about his beliefs
before a legislating body, which is perjury.
---

>> in order to not be killed by the Nazis of that time.
>
>You wouldnt know what a real Nazi was if one bit you on your lard arse.

---
Well, as much as you'd like to, I don't think you'll ever get that
opportunity.
---

>> And you, "Rod Speed", what do you have to offer?
>
>Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

---
Stuck in there, then, are you?

JF
Rod Speed - 31 Aug 2008 21:04 GMT
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> John's original, still right at the top, is just plain wrong
>>>> on WHEN that collection of silly senile old farts realised
>>>> that the earth does in fact revolved around the sun.

>>> Sorry for the confusion.

>> There is no confusion and there still isnt. You were and still are just plain wrong.

> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

YOU made the original stupid claim.

YOU get to provide the evidence.

THATS how it works.

>>> What I was referring to was the Roman Catholic Church's
>>> official admission that Geocentrism was wrong

>> Yes, that was always clear.

>>> and, AIUI, that acknowledgement only occurred a few years ago.

>> And that is where you were always just plain wrong. It happened a LONG time before that.

> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

YOU made the original stupid claim.

YOU get to provide the evidence.

THATS how it works.

>> Like I said, what actually happened only a few years ago, was that
>> they did officially admit that Galileo had been very badly treated.

> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

YOU made the original stupid claim.

YOU get to provide the evidence.

THATS how it works.

>>> Small comfort for Galileo, who knew he was right, beyond a shadow of doubt,

>> And he wasnt alone in recognising that at that time. The evidence was very clear.

> That's not the point.

Corse it is.

>>> but was forced to perjure himself

>> He didnt even perjure himself.

> In order to save his life, he was forced to lie about his
> beliefs before a legislating body, which is perjury.

Wrong, as always.

<reams of your puerile sh.t flushed where it belongs>
Dan Drake - 02 Sep 2008 20:11 GMT
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
> Wrong, as always.

Do you actually mean anything by that statement? If so, could you tell us
what it is?

I mean, I assume you know what the word "recant" means. Obviously you know
that Galileo recanted, formally, under oath, before witnesses, with a
transcript being taken, the authenticity of which has never been
questioned -- unless you have now decided to question whether he really
said it (in which case it would be nice to know on what grounds you
question it, in opposition to everyone else in the world and every
historian of science that ever considered it).

BTW I am not arguing that the Church didn't recognize the Earth's motion
till the 1990s. After all, when they allowed (in fact, _ordered_) the
publication of Galileo's work undiluted in 1822, it was not because the
Inquisition had been converted into disciples of John Locke with a firm
belief in Voltaire's famous principle which he never actually said, about
defending to the death your right to be wrong. It was because they knew
they looked too damn stupid by then -- just as Galileo had warned their
predecessors, though they were not about to say that out loud. And in only
170 years more, the Church got around to saying it out loud.

This, of course, is a small point in itself; it's just that your
uncompromising and unfounded statements tend to, you know, make it look as
if you don't really know what you're talking about. The senile old farts
at Fordham U (your characterization, not mine; I find a lot of highly
respecatble scholarship in Romish sources) have proved a convenient
reference:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html

"...But since I, after having been admonished by this Holy Office entirely
to abandon the false opinion that the Sun was the centre of the universe
and immoveable, and that the Earth was not the centre of the same and that
it moved,... I did write and cause to be printed a book in which I treat
of the said already condemned doctrine... : I have been judged vehemently
suspected of heresy, that is, of having held and believed that the Sun is
the centre of the universe and immoveable, and that the Earth is not the
centre of the same, and that it does move.

"Nevertheless, wishing to remove from the minds of your Eminences and all
faithful Christians this vehement suspicion reasonably conceived against
me, I abjure with sincere heart and unfeigned faith, I curse and detest
the said errors and heresies...

"I Galileo Galilei aforesaid have abjured, sworn, and promised, and hold
myself bound as above; and in token of the truth, with my own hand have
subscribed the present schedule of my abjuration, and have recited it word
by word. In Rome, at the Convent della Minerva, this 22nd day of June,
1633.

"I, GALILEO GALILEI, have abjured as above, with my own hand."

What part of "recanted" or "abjured" or "under oath" do you not
understand? Or is your claim that he really had joined the senile old
farts in actually *believing* this crap? It would be odd if you were to
say that, considering your assertion (true enough) that there were other
people who knew it was nonsense; this would make Galileo a more senile of
fart than those people. Hence it's hard to figure out what you *do* mean.

Signature

Dan Drake
dd@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com

Rod Speed - 02 Sep 2008 20:54 GMT
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>>> John's original, still right at the top, is just plain wrong
>>>>>> on WHEN that collection of silly senile old farts realised
>>>>>> that the earth does in fact revolved around the sun.

>>>>> Sorry for the confusion.

>>>> There is no confusion and there still isnt. You were and still are just plain wrong.

>>> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

>> YOU made the original stupid claim.

>> YOU get to provide the evidence.

>> THATS how it works.

>>>>> What I was referring to was the Roman Catholic Church's
>>>>> official admission that Geocentrism was wrong

>>>> Yes, that was always clear.

>>>>> and, AIUI, that acknowledgement only occurred a few years ago.

>>>> And that is where you were always just plain wrong.
>>>> It happened a LONG time before that.

>>> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

>> YOU made the original stupid claim.

>> YOU get to provide the evidence.

>> THATS how it works.

>>>> Like I said, what actually happened only a few years ago, was that
>>>> they did officially admit that Galileo had been very badly treated.

>>> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

>> YOU made the original stupid claim.

>> YOU get to provide the evidence.

>> THATS how it works.

>>>>> Small comfort for Galileo, who knew he was right, beyond a shadow of doubt,

>>>> And he wasnt alone in recognising that at that time. The evidence was very clear.

>>> That's not the point.

>> Corse it is.

>>>>> but was forced to perjure himself

>>>> He didnt even perjure himself.

>>> In order to save his life, he was forced to lie about his
>>> beliefs before a legislating body, which is perjury.

>> Wrong, as always.

> Do you actually mean anything by that statement? If so, could you tell us what it is?

Pathetic.

> I mean, I assume you know what the word "recant" means.

Irrelevant to what the word perjury means.

> Obviously you know that Galileo recanted, formally, under oath, before witnesses,
> with a transcript being taken, the authenticity of which has never been questioned

Different matter entirely to whether that qualifys as perjury.

> -- unless you have now decided to question whether he really said it

Nope.

> (in which case it would be nice to know on what grounds
> you question it, in opposition to everyone else in the world
> and every historian of science that ever considered it).

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

> BTW I am not arguing that the Church didn't recognize the Earth's motion till the 1990s.

That fool Fields is clearly doing just that.

> After all, when they allowed (in fact, _ordered_) the publication of Galileo's work undiluted in 1822,

They didnt get to ORDER a damned thing.

> it was not because the Inquisition had been converted into disciples
> of John Locke with a firm belief in Voltaire's famous principle which
> he never actually said, about defending to the death your right to be
> wrong. It was because they knew they looked too damn stupid by then

As I said, a separate matter entirely to when even those fools
had realised that the earth did in fact revolve around the sun.

> -- just as Galileo had warned their predecessors, though
> they were not about to say that out loud. And in only 170
> years more, the Church got around to saying it out loud.

You cant even manage to grasp just what 'it' is actually being discussed.

> This, of course, is a small point in itself; it's just that your
> uncompromising and unfounded statements tend to, you know,
> make it look as if you don't really know what you're talking about.

You in spades when you cant even manage to work out just what is being discussed.

> The senile old farts at Fordham U (your characterization, not mine;

I never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

> I find a lot of highly respecatble scholarship in Romish
> sources) have proved a convenient reference:

Pity its doesnt even comment on what is actually being discussed.

> http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html

> "...But since I, after having been admonished by this Holy Office
> entirely to abandon the false opinion that the Sun was the centre
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the universe and immoveable, and that the Earth is not the
> centre of the same, and that it does move.

> "Nevertheless, wishing to remove from the minds of your
> Eminences and all faithful Christians this vehement suspicion
> reasonably conceived against me, I abjure with sincere heart
> and unfeigned faith, I curse and detest the said errors and heresies...

> "I Galileo Galilei aforesaid have abjured, sworn, and promised, and
> hold myself bound as above; and in token of the truth, with my own
> hand have subscribed the present schedule of my abjuration, and have
> recited it word by word. In Rome, at the Convent della Minerva, this
> 22nd day of June, 1633.

> "I, GALILEO GALILEI, have abjured as above, with my own hand."

> What part of "recanted" or "abjured" or "under oath" do you not understand?

What part of PERJURY do you not understand ?

> Or is your claim that he really had joined the senile old farts in actually *believing* this crap?

Nope. I was JUST commenting there on whether what he said qualifys as PERJURY.

> It would be odd if you were to say that, considering your assertion
> (true enough) that there were other people who knew it was nonsense;
> this would make Galileo a more senile of fart than those people.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

> Hence it's hard to figure out what you *do* mean.

Only for those with nothing viable between their ears.
Dan Drake - 03 Sep 2008 23:20 GMT
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
[quoted text clipped - 150 lines]
>
> What part of PERJURY do you not understand

Well, here's what I understand: Lying under oath.

Let's see: under oath. If you don't believe that part, maybe you'd
condescend to explain how all the evidence is false, rather than simply
shouting.

Let's see: Lying. So, he really did curse and detest the Copernican ideas,
considering them to be errors and heresies?

Or else there is indeed some part of *your* concept of PERJURY that I fail
to understand.

Signature

Dan Drake
dd@dandrake.com
http://www.dandrake.com/
porlockjr.blogspot.com

Rod Speed - 03 Sep 2008 23:35 GMT
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>>>>>>>> John's original, still right at the top, is just plain wrong
>>>>>>>> on WHEN that collection of silly senile old farts realised
>>>>>>>> that the earth does in fact revolved around the sun.

>>>>>>> Sorry for the confusion.

>>>>>> There is no confusion and there still isnt. You were and still are just plain wrong.

>>>>> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

>>>> YOU made the original stupid claim.

>>>> YOU get to provide the evidence.

>>>> THATS how it works.

>>>>>>> What I was referring to was the Roman Catholic Church's
>>>>>>> official admission that Geocentrism was wrong

>>>>>> Yes, that was always clear.

>>>>>>> and, AIUI, that acknowledgement only occurred a few years ago.

>>>>>> And that is where you were always just plain
>>>>>> wrong. It happened a LONG time before that.

>>>>> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

>>>> YOU made the original stupid claim.

>>>> YOU get to provide the evidence.

>>>> THATS how it works.

>>>>>> Like I said, what actually happened only a few years ago, was that
>>>>>> they did officially admit that Galileo had been very badly treated.

>>>>> OK, then, instead of your bluster, let's see your evidence.

>>>> YOU made the original stupid claim.

>>>> YOU get to provide the evidence.

>>>> THATS how it works.

>>>>>>> Small comfort for Galileo, who knew he was right, beyond a shadow of doubt,

>>>>>> And he wasnt alone in recognising that at that time. The evidence was very clear.

>>>>> That's not the point.

>>>> Corse it is.

>>>>>>> but was forced to perjure himself

>>>>>> He didnt even perjure himself.

>>>>> In order to save his life, he was forced to lie about his
>>>>> beliefs before a legislating body, which is perjury.

>>>> Wrong, as always.

>>> Do you actually mean anything by that statement? If so, could you tell us what it is?

>> Pathetic.

>>> I mean, I assume you know what the word "recant" means.

>> Irrelevant to what the word perjury means.

>>> Obviously you know that Galileo recanted, formally, under oath, before witnesses,
>>> with a transcript being taken, the authenticity of which has never been questioned

>> Different matter entirely to whether that qualifys as perjury.

>>> -- unless you have now decided to question whether he really said it

>> Nope.

>>> (in which case it would be nice to know on what grounds
>>> you question it, in opposition to everyone else in the world
>>> and every historian of science that ever considered it).

>> Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

>>> BTW I am not arguing that the Church didn't recognize the Earth's motion till the 1990s.

>> That fool Fields is clearly doing just that.

>>> After all, when they allowed (in fact, _ordered_) the publication of Galileo's work undiluted in 1822,

>> They didnt get to ORDER a damned thing.

>>> it was not because the Inquisition had been converted into disciples
>>> of John Locke with a firm belief in Voltaire's famous principle which
>>> he never actually said, about defending to the death your right to be
>>> wrong. It was because they knew they looked too damn stupid by then

>> As I said, a separate matter entirely to when even those fools
>> had realised that the earth did in fact revolve around the sun.

>>> -- just as Galileo had warned their predecessors, though
>>> they were not about to say that out loud. And in only 170
>>> years more, the Church got around to saying it out loud.

>> You cant even manage to grasp just what 'it' is actually being discussed.

>>> This, of course, is a small point in itself; it's just that your
>>> uncompromising and unfounded statements tend to, you know,
>>> make it look as if you don't really know what you're talking about.

>> You in spades when you cant even manage to work out just what is being discussed.

>>> The senile old farts at Fordham U (your characterization, not mine;

>> I never ever said anything even remotely resembling anything like that.

>>> I find a lot of highly respecatble scholarship in Romish
>>> sources) have proved a convenient reference:

>> Pity its doesnt even comment on what is actually being discussed.

>>> http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.html

>>> "...But since I, after having been admonished by this Holy Office
>>> entirely to abandon the false opinion that the Sun was the centre
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>> the universe and immoveable, and that the Earth is not the
>>> centre of the same, and that it does move.

>>> "Nevertheless, wishing to remove from the minds of your
>>> Eminences and all faithful Christians this vehement suspicion
>>> reasonably conceived against me, I abjure with sincere heart and
>>> unfeigned faith, I curse and detest the said errors and heresies...

>>> "I Galileo Galilei aforesaid have abjured, sworn, and promised, and
>>> hold myself bound as above; and in token of the truth, with my own
>>> hand have subscribed the present schedule of my abjuration, and have
>>> recited it word by word. In Rome, at the Convent della Minerva, this
>>> 22nd day of June, 1633.

>>> "I, GALILEO GALILEI, have abjured as above, with my own hand."

>>> What part of "recanted" or "abjured" or "under oath" do you not understand?

>> What part of PERJURY do you not understand

> Well, here's what I understand: Lying under oath.

It isnt just ANY lying under oath.

> Let's see: under oath. If you don't believe that part, maybe you'd condescend
> to explain how all the evidence is false, rather than simply shouting.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

> Let's see: Lying. So, he really did curse and detest the Copernican
> ideas, considering them to be errors and heresies?

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

> Or else there is indeed some part of *your* concept of PERJURY that I fail to understand.

It isnt MY concept of perjury thats being discussed. Try a dictionary sometime.
John Fields - 04 Sep 2008 00:59 GMT
>Dan Drake <dd@dandrake.com> wrote>

>> Or else there is indeed some part of *your* concept of PERJURY that I fail to understand.
>
>It isnt MY concept of perjury thats being discussed.

---
I agree; it's your flagrant and evidently intentionally misconstrued
conception of the meaning of perjury which is on trial.

Since you seem to disagree with the generally held concept of what
perjury is, then it behooves you to expound on your concept of the
meaning of perjury if you want to be a player.

Otherwise, all you're doing is sitting in the bleachers hurling
obscenities without really being in the game at all.  
---

>Try a dictionary sometime.

---

Better yet, try this from:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:
+18USC1621

"From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 3, 2006]
[CITE: 18USC1621]


                TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

                            PART I--CRIMES

                          CHAPTER 79--PERJURY

Sec. 1621. Perjury generally

   Whoever--
       (1) having taken an oath before a competent tribunal, officer,
or person, in any case in which a law of the United States
   authorizes an oath to be administered, that he will testify,
   declare, depose, or certify truly, or that any written testimony,
   declaration, deposition, or certificate by him subscribed, is
true,
   willfully and contrary to such oath states or subscribes any
   material matter which he does not believe to be true; or
       (2) in any declaration, certificate, verification, or
statement
   under penalty of