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Electronics Forum / Electronics / July 2009Internet, now 20 years in Australia
Internet, now 20 years in Australia http://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html Cheers Don...  SignatureDon McKenzie Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email Web Camera Page: http://www.dontronics.com/webcam No More Damn Spam: http://www.dontronics.com/spam Breakout, Prototype, Development, & Robotics Boards. http://www.dontronics-shop.com/sparkfun-electronics.html > Internet, now 20 years in Australia > http://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html > > Cheers Don... Hi Don Thanks for this. A trip down amnesia lane. It facinates me that the internet is so young and yet has had such an impact on people's lives. It is good to see JANET mentioned as well as this was the first network I used to send email when at University back in 1987. Little did I know email would now dictate my life. Times have changed. Can you imagine life without mobile phones, PCs and the internet? I was all so different back then... Thanks SignatureBill Naylor www.electronworks.co.uk Electronic Kits for Education and Fun > Can you imagine life without mobile phones, PCs and > the internet? Imagine? No need, > I was all so different back then... That was when there was the illusion of quality TV programs. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. >> Internet, now 20 years in Australia >> http://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Times have changed. Can you imagine life without mobile phones, PCs > and the internet? I was all so different back then... Yet people have forgotten how to communicate, go figure. > Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Breakout, Prototype, Development, & Robotics Boards.http://www.dontronics-shop.com/sparkfun-electronics.html Hello, I bought a Commodore 64 in 1984. The internet was rudimentary until the Sydney Morning Herald opened up the topic. Email was possible tho I think it was just messaging copied from the English Prestel. I was friendly with a group of techies from Telecom. The internet came for me with the Amiga. We had an early way to get to the internet but as there was no server on NSW Central Coast for a while we had to download what we wanted and looked at it later. Remember the user groups? Dick Smith was the first I saw of shopping. nof >> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > nof I was on Packet radio long before the internet. Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along. >>> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html >>> >>> Cheers Don... >I was on Packet radio long before the internet. >Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along. I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia. (Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP, and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization. SignatureChris. >>>> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival > of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization. Well otherwise you could say that morse code was a form of internet, or even lighting signal fires on top of hills, I mean really, you need a better definition of internet. >Well otherwise you could say that morse code was a form of internet, or >even lighting signal fires on top of hills, I mean really, you need a >better definition of internet. As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it. However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time before the appearance of IP. SignatureChris. > As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it. > However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time > before the appearance of IP. Second on the core Internet being tcp/ip technology. There were other networks, but it is the inter-connectability that made the Internet work. HTML is just a eye-candy delivery method. AFAIK, most other networks were structured around a hierachy. In The Internet, so long as machine has an IP address, it can talk to any other IP address. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. -- Great advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. >> As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it. >> However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Internet, so long as machine has an IP address, it can talk to any other > IP address. It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if HTML didn't exist. Packet radio was one of many networking systems, IP addressing wasn't the first. I was communicating with people on the MIR space station before the IP internet came to town. > It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and > easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if > HTML didn't exist. Ironic considering *you* are posting on a part of the internet that existed long before the advent of the HTML based WWW. :-) MrT. >> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and >> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if >> HTML didn't exist. > > Ironic considering *you* are posting on a part of the internet that existed > long before the advent of the HTML based WWW. :-) Indeed. I was an avid BBS user from the early 80's, & the first I heard of Usenet was when newsgroups were gatewayed into BBS Echo groups (via UUCP, IIRC) - long before public Internet access arrived in '95. SignatureW . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- >>> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and >>> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of Usenet was when newsgroups were gatewayed into BBS Echo groups (via > UUCP, IIRC) - long before public Internet access arrived in '95. Like I said above about nerdy geeks. > >>> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and > >>> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Like I said above about nerdy geeks. You too can apply for a spot on "Beauty and the Geek" then, but I wouldn't expect too much with that attitude :-) MrT. >>>> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and >>>> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Like I said above about nerdy geeks. Mate, I'm crushed. ;^) SignatureW . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and >>>>> easy to use. The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Mate, I'm crushed. ;^) Yeah I have to admit I wasn't sure if that was an insult or a compliment. >>>>>> It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful >>>>>> and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Yeah I have to admit I wasn't sure if that was an insult or a compliment. <grin> There are lots of us who'd be perfectly happy for Usenet access to go back to being "nerdy geeks" only. SignatureW . | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because \|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- >>> As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it. >>> However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It may only be eye candy but HTML is what made the internet useful and > easy to use. umm, Davo's comment, email, archie, gopher and probably other I've never used. it was useful before > The internet would still only be known to nerdy geeks if > HTML didn't exist. well used by nerdy geeks. HTML is really dross for the stupid; people who are basically illiterate. > Packet radio was one of many networking systems, Correct, there were many networking systems around. None of which had the versatility of the internet, which is partly why they all disappeared. The Internet is a bit Borgish really, if your networking system can interface to it, then your networking system can be part of the internet. The thing about it wasn't just the physical interface, it is the "virtual" interfaces like email, usenet, etc,etc. If your networking system can interface to those, then that part of the internet can be on your network. The other problem with proprietary networks was the "cost", you had to buy the hardware (bleed $$$$) and the software (bleed $$$$). > IP addressing wasn't the first. Not the issue. It wasn't invented, but evolved. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. >>> As IP can be transmitted via morse code, I wouldn't discount it. >>> However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >addressing wasn't the first. I was communicating with people on the MIR >space station before the IP internet came to town. That's not true. Prior to HTML the internet was extreemly useful to those in research and development, military, educational institutions and other technical areas. And although you might not think it was easy to use none of us had trouble grasping the concepts required. HTML certainly allowed the average person easier access to information, a bonus when the internet was commercialised , and it is a great way to order and structure documents, however it is not the be all and end all of the internet. mike > >Well otherwise you could say that morse code was a form of internet, or > >even lighting signal fires on top of hills, I mean really, you need a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > However, I certainly wouldn't claim it *was* the internet any time before the > appearance of IP. Yep, but of course was far more than 20 years ago. MrT. >> >Well otherwise you could say that morse code was a form of internet, or >> >even lighting signal fires on top of hills, I mean really, you need a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the >> appearance of IP. >Yep, but of course was far more than 20 years ago. You do know how to follow a conversation, don't you? SignatureChris. > >> >Well otherwise you could say that morse code was a form of internet, or > >> >even lighting signal fires on top of hills, I mean really, you need a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > You do know how to follow a conversation, don't you? Better than you it seems. MrT. >Better than you it seems. Or not, in your case. SignatureChris. > >Better than you it seems. > > Or not, in your case. Despite your snipping attempt, I'm still doing better than you though. MrT. > >I was on Packet radio long before the internet. > >Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along. In *your* opinion. Many of us were using the internet before then. > I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia. > (Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP, > and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival > of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization. No, it's just plain wrong. MrT. >"Chris McDonald" <chris@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message >> I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia. >> (Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP, >> and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival >> of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization. >No, it's just plain wrong. *What* is just plain wrong? - I was doing what I stated well before 1989. - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period after the arrival of HTTP/HTML. Which of those statements is wrong, and why? SignatureChris. > >> I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia. > >> (Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > *What* is just plain wrong? That the internet started in 1989 (rather than just the part we currently call the Web) > - I was doing what I stated well before 1989. Me too. > - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period > after the arrival of HTTP/HTML. Which is wrong, that's my point. And I'm sure the internet and the web will go on long after HTTP/HTML has passed into history too. MrT. >"Chris McDonald" <chris@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message >> - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period >> after the arrival of HTTP/HTML. >Which is wrong, that's my point. And I'm sure the internet and the web will >go on long after HTTP/HTML has passed into history too. No, please try to follow the conversation. Are you really claiming it is wrong that "...many people just consider...." ? I doubt it. My point is that this is what most people presume. SignatureChris. > >> - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period > >> after the arrival of HTTP/HTML. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No, please try to follow the conversation. Your stupid crap, or what was originally written? > Are you really claiming it is wrong that "...many people just consider...." ? > I doubt it. Please read what was written, not what you pretend is written just so you can make stupid remarks. > My point is that this is what most people presume. Maybe you do, but don't pretend to speak for everyone else. MrT. >Your stupid crap, or what was originally written? Keep digging. Bye. SignatureChris. > >"Chris McDonald" <chris@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > My point is that this is what most people presume. Most people are ignorant of anything more complex than a light switch. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >>> "Chris McDonald" <chris@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message >>>> - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Most people are ignorant of anything more complex than a light > switch. It's not that they're ignorant it's just that they don't know, which isn't the same thing. You have to remember that by definition half of the population have a below average IQ. The indicator of true intelligence is the ability to deal with problems, which includes dealing with people that aren't as bright as we'd like them to be. Einstein was a great example of this, which is why he is remembered for his humility and humour as much as his cleverness. > >>> "Chris McDonald" <chris@csse.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message > >>>> - I wonder if many people just consider "the internet" to mean the period [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It's not that they're ignorant it's just that they don't know, which > isn't the same thing. Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't capable of learning it. Stupid means that you can't learn it. > You have to remember that by definition half of the population have a > below average IQ. The indicator of true intelligence is the ability to > deal with problems, which includes dealing with people that aren't as > bright as we'd like them to be. Einstein was a great example of this, > which is why he is remembered for his humility and humour as much as his > cleverness. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! > Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't > capable of learning it. Ignorant means you do know something but ignore it. Have a look at the word, it's obvious. > Stupid means that you can't learn it. Maybe it does, but it can also mean you can learn it, but choose not to take on the knowledge. For example when someone makes a stupid mistake it usually refers to something they were doing where they knew the outcome, but persisted with the action anyway. > > Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't > > capable of learning it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > it usually refers to something they were doing where they knew the > outcome, but persisted with the action anyway. Ok. Beileive whatever turns your rusty crank. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >>> Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't >>> capable of learning it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ok. Beileive whatever turns your rusty crank. Yayy I won! > >>> Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't > >>> capable of learning it. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Yayy > I won! No, but you're too stupid to know the difference. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >>>>> Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't >>>>> capable of learning it. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > No, but you're too stupid to know the difference. Insults are an indicator of a bad loser. > >>>>> Ignorance means that you don't know something, not that you aren't > >>>>> capable of learning it. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Insults are an indicator of a bad loser. Then try to insult me. SignatureYou can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense! >>>> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html >>>> >>>> Cheers Don... >>I was on Packet radio long before the internet. >>Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along. >I, too, was wondering about this definition of the Internet in Australia. >(Like many) I was using UUCP-based email, TCP/connection-based FTP, >and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival >of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization. My recollection is 1984, when I was working at La Trobe, and Computer Science got a Pyramid. We had email and Usenet News, and comp.sources.unix was full of source code for cute toys, all of it public domain. And Robert Elz, Don Knuth and Dennis Ritchie would occasionally post. Atom Egoyan Melbourne, Australia > And Robert Elz, Don Knuth and Dennis Ritchie would occasionally post. In 1980, I used to pick Robert Elz' listings of the "new" TTY driver out of the trash can and read them, complete with his circles around where function parameters were reversed, etc. Ahh the days when C had no parameter type-checking. Poring over fan-form listings on 15" wide paper was what he used to do while working late and watching the test cricket. Clifford Heath. >>>> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >and cross-Pacific telnet, well before 1989, so I wonder if the arrival >of HTTP/HTML is really just a simplifying generalization. I agree, the statement that "Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along." is wrong. Long before HTTP/HTML many of us were quite happy logging in to our unix shell accounts to regularly exchange files and data via ftp, remotely login to computers in other continents using telnet and send/receive emails using unix mail. And long before IM clients we were messenging each other using the talk/write commands. As a teenager of the 80s who grew up with modems and digital communications and the exploration culture that it brought with it, HTML/HTTP were just another evolution of something we had been using and watching grow for some time. So, Davo, while for you the "real internet" didn't start until HTML came along for some of us it started much much earlier!! Mike >>> Internet, now 20 years in >>> Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I was on Packet radio long before the internet. > Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along. That is true of the "Popular" internet which started with the first browsers, the "Real" internet even the WWW had been going long before that. > That is true of the "Popular" internet which started with the first > browsers, the "Real" internet even the WWW had been going long before that. Whilst the internet, email, ftp, Archie, veronica, Usenet, etc. etc were all going long before HTML, I think WWW was a term introduced with the advent of the "Web" as opposed to text based internet. i.e. HTML and subsequently the Mosaic viewer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web MrT. >> That is true of the "Popular" internet which started with the first >> browsers, the "Real" internet even the WWW had been going long before [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > MrT. The WWW or I suppose more specifically hyper linking and URLs pre-dated Mosaic, I used both with a character based comms program called Telix before Mosaic became available (at $5 per hour dialup) > > Whilst the internet, email, ftp, Archie, veronica, Usenet, etc. etc were all > > going long before HTML, I think WWW was a term introduced with the advent of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The WWW or I suppose more specifically hyper linking and URLs pre-dated > Mosaic, Yep, that's what "subsequently" usually implies. MrT. > Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along. Internet == inter-networking, i.e. connecting existing networks, especially using TCP/IP. It was happening more than a decade before "the web" was invented, and even now "the web" is *not* "the Internet". Clifford Heath. >> Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along. > > Internet == inter-networking, i.e. connecting existing networks, > especially using TCP/IP. It was happening more than a decade before "the > web" was invented, and even now "the web" is *not* "the Internet". I agree that The Internet is something specific as above. Otherwise we end up discussing whether inter-networking started with dial up modems or tape exchanges or early OCR of hand written letters, or ...... For me the closest was the 80's and dialing up up a BBS on a CPM luggable for Fidonet. When I finally hit an internet connected network in the 90's, the "outside" link was only 9600 baud anyway {:-), so were were still using BBS technology to transfer files between offices. SignatureGreat advances in Debian Linux; post a bug report and get spam in three days. > Davo wrote >> Real internet didn't start until HTML code came along. > Internet == inter-networking, i.e. connecting existing networks, Nope, thats not the internet. And it doesnt have to connect networks either, just PCs. > especially using TCP/IP. Thats mangled too when that happens with lans. > It was happening more than a decade before "the web" was invented, and even now "the web" is *not* "the Internet". Correct. >> Internet, now 20 years in Australiahttp://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >nof Wow, you're bringing back some memories there!! I got my C64 around 83/84 and a mate and myself, along with the C64 Programmers Reference Guide managed to adapt his home brew 300baud modem to it.. My first ever dial up was to Chisolm Institute (long before it became Monash Uni) using my friends account, it was a revelation. From there I found a couple of melbourne bulletin board systems with like minded individuals and from then on I was hooked on digital communications, local and long, especially long distance ( some people here may know what i'm talking about) :) I remember bulletin board names like... Ultimate 64, Sunshine RBBS and Melbourne Tardis RCPM, heh, i feel so old :) mike >My first ever dial up > was to Chisolm Institute (long before it became Monash Uni) Long before it became "Chisholm Institute" then. It was "Caulfield Institute of Technology" back then. MrT. >>My first ever dial up >> was to Chisolm Institute (long before it became Monash Uni) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >MrT. Thanks for the correction.. My memory isn't what it used to be, getting old I guess :) mike > Internet, now 20 years in Australia > http://www.rogerclarke.com/II/Anniv.html > > Cheers Don... I was working for Telstra when it was first launched. Back then it was called the Information Super highway. |
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