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Electronics Forum / Electronics / February 2009The fires.
RIP an aunt and a cousin. > RIP an aunt and a cousin. I offer my condolences, Ian.  Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white listed, or I will not see your messages. If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm There are two kinds of people on this earth: The crazy, and the insane. The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy. >> RIP an aunt and a cousin. > > I offer my condolences, Ian. Thanks. Aunt Irma emigrated when I was very young and only visited England rarely, I've never met my cousin. Irma was my mothers closest sister so she is very upset. >>> RIP an aunt and a cousin. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Irma was my mothers closest sister so she is very upset. My condolences also Ian, We went through the strain of trying to find out about a nephew and his family in Upper Plenty, about half way between Kilmore and King Lake. We spent Christmas day with them. We found they were at a hall oval, surrounded by fire trucks Sunday morning. They have lost their house, but at least they are still alive. Now living with a sister at Baccush Marsh. My eldest daughter and her family, was living in Strathewen until they recently returned to Darwin. Most people in the road (Bowden Spur Road) lost their homes and lives. I think almost everyone in Australia will find some sort of personal connection to this tragedy. Don... SignatureDon McKenzie Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email No More Damn Spam: http://www.wizard-of-oz.com >>>> RIP an aunt and a cousin. >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Don... There was another UK family on the news today who've been touched by the tragedy, I'm sure the same will be true for many other places in the world too. My cousin wasn't actually killed by the fire itself, he collapsed with a heart attack as he arrived at my aunt's property to help. How little we can say. How little we can do. Now is the time to dig deep, and say silently with our pockets what we have difficulty saying out loud. redcross.org.au salvos.org.au > How little we can say. > How little we can do. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > redcross.org.au > salvos.org.au Ian, you have my deepest sympathy. This horrific event has deeply affected everyone directly and indirectly. Coles stores in Australia will be donating their profits for next Friday to the Red Cross bushfire appeal, see http://www.coles.com.au/about/community/bushfire_appeal/?WT.mc_id=COLES_BushFire Appeal >> How little we can say. >> How little we can do. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ian, you have my deepest sympathy. This horrific event has deeply > affected everyone directly and indirectly. Thanks, its a very sad time for friends and relatives of those who've died and those who've lost everything.. Does anyone know why so many people were overwhelmed in their houses? >>> How little we can say. >>> How little we can do. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Does anyone know why so many people were overwhelmed in their houses? My sypathy to you and your family Ian. The temp had been over 40c (104F) for some days and it has been VeryVERY dry for several years. The wind got up and the travelling fire front was irresistable, The best laid fire plans failed for many because the speed was so high. One family survived by going to the cellar (Rare in Australia) closing the Steel door at the top of the stairs, watched the door glo red in parts then drank some of the wine in the cellar and waited till they thought it might be safe. The current death toll is 181. I think with more than 1000 homes and other buildings destroyed. For some heart rending pictures look here. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/gallery/0,22010,5037339-5006020,00.html In some places the trees are still green but the houses are gone and in lots of places isolated objects survived unscathed for no apparent reason. John G. > For some heart rending pictures look here. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John G. I was a CFA member 45 years ago, but I never saw anything like this of course. this is a link to the koala video: http://tinyurl.com/awcl36 Don... SignatureDon McKenzie Site Map: http://www.dontronics.com/sitemap E-Mail Contact Page: http://www.dontronics.com/email No More Damn Spam: http://www.wizard-of-oz.com http://www.dontronics-shop.com/super4-usb-relay-module.html > Does anyone know why so many people were overwhelmed in their houses? Unfortunately, I believe it was lack of adequate prior preparation. We love to live in bushland and too many of us take the risk they we will never have to deal with a bushfire. If you look at the surviving houses, many of them show no adaption and/or accessories for dealing with bushfires. Things such as radiant heat shelds across windows, permanently fitted roof sprinkler systems, fire houses diesel powered water pumps, proper fire hoses. It is clear that there has been fires of varying intensity in different places. For some of those fires, you would definitely have need an underground fire cellar, which has not been a prior recommendation. For others, people have survived the passing of the firefront and then saved their and neighbours houses with the garden hose and a still working town water supply. some simply were able to use the house as a shield until the firefront passed and then exit it, but were unable to save it. What we have missed this time on the TV is the usal copious scenes of urban firefighters in their uniform of thongs, shorts and t-shirts, which raises another requirement of proper clothing and personal safety gear (boots, smke googles, smoke respirator and gloves. Then there isthe old issue of moving the lawn and removing fallen bark, branches and other dead groeth from around the house prior and during bushfire season. > It is clear that there has been fires of varying intensity in different > places. For some of those fires, you would definitely have need an > underground fire cellar, which has not been a prior recommendation. I helped out with the cleanup in Cockatoo after the Ash Wed fires. Behind the place I helped at, just over the crest of the hill and set into a slight slope was a 2-storey double-brick house which an engineer had built with a nuclear bunker under the north-east ground floor, which was a 9" thick reinforced concrete slab on footings each side weighing nine tonnes. The slab was collapsed into about eight big sections, and had changed so you could break off pieces in your hand - it was like Weetbix. So much for his nuclear shelter. As they left during the start of the initial firestorm, an aluminium dingy, unpainted and stored on its side in a cutting (so mostly below ground level) beside a steel shed, *burst into flame*. The cement-sheet house below the road was occupied the whole time and was untouched by the fire. Firestorms are like that, I saw the same thing in the Adelaide hills where I'd been 3 days after the fires. The underground bunker or dugout is the only possible thing that can survive such a fire. They used to have multiple doors, made of wet hessian, to allow air exchange. It's time that every house in such an environment was required to have one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get insurance at the same place that other folk shop. > The slab was collapsed into about eight big sections, and had changed > so you could break off pieces in your hand - it was like Weetbix. > So much for his nuclear shelter. How big was the slab? If it collapsed, it sounded like the supports/walls gave way. I'm not worried about the changed nature of the slab,but the collapse. the purpose is to protect life. Replacing the slab as part of rebuilding seems sensible. > The underground bunker or dugout is the only possible thing that can > survive such a fire. They used to have multiple doors, made of wet > hessian, to allow air exchange. I suspect that air cylinders might be required. TV carried a few comments from people about difficulty of breathing when the fire was around and intense fires can deplete available oxygen. > It's time that every house in such an environment was required to have > one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get insurance at > the same place that other folk shop. I agree entirely. > I suspect that air cylinders might be required. TV carried a few comments > from people about difficulty of breathing when the fire was around and > intense fires can deplete available oxygen. A couple of scuba tanks seems like a sensible addition if you are going to build a bunker. Seems like fairly cheap insurance for such areas IMO. MrT. > How big was the slab? If it collapsed, it sounded like the > supports/walls gave way. About 4 metres each way from memory, and 9 inches thick. The supports were solid, I suspect what happened is the reo heated up so much it cracked the concrete - but the extent of the damage to the slab was still amazing. The reo wasn't strong enough to stop it falling in - and it was less than ten years old. Point is, you need a metre of dirt as well. > I suspect that air cylinders might be required. TV carried a few comments > from people about difficulty of breathing when the fire was around and > intense fires can deplete available oxygen. I think that TV has overstated the danger. It's true that some folk have died in dugouts, but many many more have survived that would have died. The oxygen in the dugout won't selectively migrate out to feed the fire, I don't think partial pressures work that way, not quickly enough anyhow. It's just a matter of having the right amount of air exchange - not too much, not too little. it wouldn't take much research to find the right design. >> It's time that every house in such an environment was required to have >> one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get insurance at >> the same place that other folk shop. > > I agree entirely. For that matter, I'd like to see specialised auto insurance for folk born in Asia, and other insurers allowed to refuse them or demand a driving skills test. This after my 40yo classic Italian car was wrecked in December, by a driver whose eyes were the wrong shape to see me stationary right in front of him. Some might scream racism - but I worked in insurance for a while, and the Asians there reckoned that this *Asian* insurance company shouldn't insure Asians, acknowledging they simply can't drive. It's not the race, it's the lack of sport in their upbringing, I maintain. Clifford Heath. > I think that TV has overstated the danger. That is the nature of TV; idiot presenter making ludicrous comments. If you look at the images presented and idependently assess them, then you can see it was the full range of fires.. > It's true that some folk have died in dugouts, but many many more > have survived that would have died. The oxygen in the dugout won't > selectively migrate out to feed the fire, I don't think partial > pressures work that way, not quickly enough anyhow. Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread? AFAIUI, it isn't just about the oxygen disappearing, but the percentage of oxygen dropping (normal 21% to 15% for problem to appear) and the increasing prescence of carbon monoxide. My 2c is that if there is smoke, then there is incomplete combustion and likely to be significant carbon monoxide. > Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread? Ok, point taken... some significant fraction of 342m/s I'm guessing ;-) > AFAIUI, it isn't just about the oxygen disappearing, but the percentage of > oxygen dropping (normal 21% to 15% for problem to appear) and the > increasing prescence of carbon monoxide. My 2c is that if there is smoke, > then there is incomplete combustion and likely to be significant carbon > monoxide. Ok, that'd be a problem even in the presence of oxygen. CO poisons your haemoglobin. Need to ensure that you aren't at the bottom of a gully where it'll flow in I guess, and having emergency oxygen would help somewhat. >> Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > at the bottom of a gully where it'll flow in I guess, and > having emergency oxygen would help somewhat. I'd go for compressed air, myself. Pure oxygen's toxic at atmospheric pressure. Sylvia. >>> Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread? >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Sylvia. You may want to check that Sil :-) >>>> Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread? >>> Ok, point taken... some significant fraction of 342m/s I'm [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > You may want to check that Sil :-) Nup. I'm sure. But if you don't believe me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity Sylvia. >>>>> Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread? >>>> Ok, point taken... some significant fraction of 342m/s I'm [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Sylvia. maybe how its applied: http://msds.chemalert.com/?id=21&file=0010678.pdf >>>>>> Umm how fast does a bad smelling fart spread? >>>>> Ok, point taken... some significant fraction of 342m/s I'm [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > http://msds.chemalert.com/?id=21&file=0010678.pdf Even there it doesn't indicate that it's safe for any period at 100% at sea level. Yet if you have a cylinder of the stuff, and are using it during a bush fire, the only way to avoid 100% is to accept some air from the environment. That air would contain smoke, and maybe dangerous concentrations of carbon monoxide. Sylvia. Not forgetting pure oxygen would allow anything slightly flammable to burn so fast and hot that the contents of the room including the people would be incinerated at the slightest spark. > Not forgetting pure oxygen would allow anything slightly > flammable to burn so fast and hot that the contents of the > room including the people would be incinerated at the > slightest spark. Medical oxygen devices don't supply it pure. It's pretty pure in the bottle, but it gets mixed through a regulator&flowmeter. >> I'd go for compressed air, myself. Pure oxygen's toxic at atmospheric >> pressure. >> >> Sylvia. > > You may want to check that Sil :-) nevertheless pure oxygen is not a good idea near burning stuff. :) >>> I'd go for compressed air, myself. Pure oxygen's toxic at atmospheric >>> pressure. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > nevertheless pure oxygen is not a good idea near burning stuff. :) As I recall some time ago when there was a severe weather event in the US South, they set about evacuating vulnerable people. A coachload of old folk was involved in a collision and caught fire, many of the passengers had portable oxygen bottles which caused the fire to spread so fast that no one got out. <snip> > As I recall some time ago when there was a severe weather event in the US > South, they set about evacuating vulnerable people. A coachload of old > folk was involved in a collision and caught fire, many of the passengers > had portable oxygen bottles which caused the fire to spread so fast that > no one got out. Yes, it was part of the evacuation of New Orleans due to Hurricane Katrina. The bus was uncertified for passengers. A brake started the fire and all aboard were killed. Something is reminding me that the driver didn't have a proper license either. > I'd go for compressed air, myself. Pure oxygen's toxic at atmospheric > pressure. Not to mention that leaking oxygen makes a burning match a flaming torch. > > I'd go for compressed air, myself. Pure oxygen's toxic at atmospheric > > pressure. > > Not to mention that leaking oxygen makes a burning match a flaming > torch. Not to mention air fills are far cheaper than oxygen, so why bother! MrT. >> Not to mention that leaking oxygen makes a burning match a flaming >> torch. > > Not to mention air fills are far cheaper than oxygen, so why bother! I mention this danger in the vain hope that we might save a few idiots. <oh bugger, why am i opposing Darwin?> . >>> Not to mention that leaking oxygen makes a burning match a flaming >>> torch. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > <oh bugger, why am i opposing Darwin?> > . There's a difference between idiots and people who simply have not acquired the relevant knowledge. An idiot is someone who lights a match in an Oxygen atmosphere despite having been warned of the risks. Sylvia. >> I think that TV has overstated the danger. > That is the nature of TV; idiot presenter making ludicrous comments. If [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > then there is incomplete combustion and likely to be significant carbon > monoxide. In the UK one TV station news showed footage of a motorcycle abandoned on the side of the road, the rider had only made a few yards on foot before collapsing and dying. As far as I could see there was no signs of fire damage to bike or rider. > In the UK one TV station news showed footage of a motorcycle abandoned on > the side of the road, the rider had only made a few yards on foot before > collapsing and dying. As far as I could see there was no signs of fire > damage to bike or rider. Last night, on ABC's Q&A, they related how a woman tried to walk to the oval to join the fire trucks and didn't make it either. Again, no burns, but she died. > For that matter, I'd like to see specialised auto insurance > for folk born in Asia, and other insurers allowed to refuse [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Clifford Heath. Here in the states, there is a running joke about how you blind an Asian.... Answer: Put a windscreen in front of them. >> For that matter, I'd like to see specialised auto insurance >> for folk born in Asia, and other insurers allowed to refuse [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Answer: Put a windscreen in front of them. or use some dental floss > > The slab was collapsed into about eight big sections, and had changed > > so you could break off pieces in your hand - it was like Weetbix. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > from people about difficulty of breathing when the fire was around and > intense fires can deplete available oxygen. If you have a petrol / diesel / LPG powered generator used for running a fire fighting pump, wouldnt it be at risk of stopping / misfiring / losing power, just when its needed, if the available oxygen is depleted by fire ? or "choked" from intense smoke ? Would some sort of "air supply" be practical in this case ? Just another possible thing to consider in planning a fire protection system. > > It's time that every house in such an environment was required to have > > one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get insurance at > > the same place that other folk shop. > > I agree entirely. > If you have a petrol / diesel / LPG powered generator used for running > a fire fighting pump, wouldnt it be at risk of stopping / misfiring / > losing power, just when its needed, if the available oxygen is > depleted by fire ? or "choked" from intense smoke ? Possibly. AFAIUI, the problem for humans is not the abscence, but the reduction in oxygen in the air. 21% oxygen is the normal level with some people suffering breathing problems when it drops as low as 15%. I suspect a motor would probably just act as if it was choked. Caveat, they are either broke or working in my limited skills. > Would some sort of "air supply" be practical in this case ? Just another > possible thing to consider in planning a fire protection system. I do not know how critical continuous pumping would be when the firefront is passing. My understanding is that you want to wet down prior and have a bit of water on the roof and in the gutter to extinguish smaller embers/burning leaves, burning twigs, etc when they land on the roof. When the fire front as passed, you would most likely want the sprays to continue, but also be able to use fire houes firstly on any part of the house that is alight, then move wider a field to sheds, etc. So easy restart would be important. > Possibly. AFAIUI, the problem for humans is not the abscence, but the > reduction in oxygen in the air. 21% oxygen is the normal level with some > people suffering breathing problems when it drops as low as 15%. Possibly true, though the partial pressure of oxygen at 10,000 feet (lowest altitude where some folk start, after a day or more, to experience altitude sickness) is the equivalent of 12% (since the atmos. pressure there is 60% of sea level). I doubt that problems from low oxygen start at 15%. In a short duration event, I'd guess more like 8%. Clifford Heath. > I doubt that problems from low oxygen start at 15%. In a short > duration event, I'd guess more like 8%. The problem with your lower figures is that you are thinking healthy people. > The problem with your lower figures is that you are thinking healthy > people. Unhealthy people should be evacuated very early, so no real problem. MrT. >> The problem with your lower figures is that you are thinking healthy >> people. > > Unhealthy people should be evacuated very early, so no real problem. You really should think that through. The problem is that there is no way of telling who is going to be affected by low oxygen levels first. Some people can climb Mt Everest without oxygen, but most use oxygen. However, some can not even walk to base camp without having problems and there is no way of predicting who is going to be affected. Then there is the problem of actually evacuating a mass of "unhealthy" people in a short time. Then you have to support them whilst they are evacuated. How many days? > >> The problem with your lower figures is that you are thinking healthy > >> people. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The problem is that there is no way > of telling who is going to be affected by low oxygen levels first. True, but that doesn't necessarily make them not "healthy people" as claimed. Life always involves some risk. Sad to think more people die in industrial accidents each year than in bush fires, and usually get nowhere near the support or sympathy. > Then there is the problem of actually evacuating a mass of "unhealthy" > people in a short time. Then you have to support them whilst they are > evacuated. How many days? Who knows, why is that relevant? Nobody seems to be complaining that there are still plenty of evacuated people being looked after at the moment. The bigger worry is how many more have died. MrT. > When the fire front as passed, you would most likely want the sprays to > continue, but also be able to use fire houes firstly on any part of the > house that is alight, then move wider a field to sheds, etc. So > easy restart would be important. Assuming it has not already been destroyed by the fire of course. MrT. >>> The slab was collapsed into about eight big sections, and had changed >>> so you could break off pieces in your hand - it was like Weetbix. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > losing power, just when its needed, if the available oxygen is > depleted by fire ? or "choked" from intense smoke ? Fires suck in fresh air as the hot air rises. If they didn't, they'd smother themselves. So once the fire front's passed, and if the house is still standing, I can't imagine a generator being prevented from running. Sylvia. This thread can now be laid to rest. Germaine Greer has finally told us what we did wrong. > This thread can now be laid to rest. > Germaine Greer has finally told us what we did wrong. She has an unfortunate way of expressing her view (characterising us all as arsonists), but she's not so far wrong. As I've commented on a DT article that discussed her views, the arsonists have merely lit fires now that would otherwise have happened sooner or later by natural causes (or accident). It was just a question of time. It would be a mistake to think that arsonists are the cause, and that if we could somehow deter people from arson, the problem would go away. Because it wouldn't. Sylvia. >> This thread can now be laid to rest. >> Germaine Greer has finally told us what we did wrong. > > She is a sad old git who is desperate for the media spot light and can only resort to ludicrous statements in an attemptto get it. >> It is clear that there has been fires of varying intensity in different >> places. For some of those fires, you would definitely have need an [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > have one within 50 metres. Other defences too, if they're to get > insurance at the same place that other folk shop. There appears to be evidence that many people didn't attempt to leave their house, I'm wondering why?! >>> It is clear that there has been fires of varying intensity in different >>> places. For some of those fires, you would definitely have need an [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > There appears to be evidence that many people didn't attempt to leave > their house, I'm wondering why?! The current advice by the authorities is Decide Early 1 Leave if you are unable to defend. 2 Stay if you are prepared and think you can save the house. The stories form survivors of last Saturday are all that they found out Too late to leave and some that did were killed on the road either directly by the fire or in crashes in the smoke. Reports today say the fire front moved at around 100 kms per hour in some areas. John G. > Reports today say the fire front moved at around 100 kms per hour in some > areas. Indeed there are a few rare videos that show the fire moving at nearly 50m per second up a hill, im tring to find the link, it show the fire move across 3 back yards fences in about 2 seconds, and they went back and messured the distance to be 102m. the flames are so hot that they just set on fire anything that the wind blows over. almost anything burns once its hot enough, even the paint on concrete walls goes up. > There appears to be evidence that many people didn't attempt to leave > their house, I'm wondering why?! People have the choice of going early or staying and defending their property. The CFA oppose compulsory mass evacuations as people had panicked and been killed in accidents during these events. A lot of people left it too late to evacuate. If you are going to evacuate, you need to go early, very early in the day. Not wait until the flames appear. Lots of people had absolutely no warning. I understand that the fires in Marysville were burnt and gone before the authorities found out that there was a fire there. Some of the fires were not natural in their spread. The CFA are now saying that many people were just not prepared in any way shape of form despite the warning that have been given out in the days prior. having just come home from a rotation at the fires there the amount of people that still have unprepared places is astounding one sticks in my mind on the road to kinglake buildings with dead bush right against them leaves and twigs covering the roof the place is indefensible it was certainly an eye opener the amount of ground fuel is unbelievable the whole area is still a time bomb BTW the place i mentioned is the DSE visitors center arent they meant to be the ones responsible for managing the land does make you wonder how they got the nickname deptartment of scorched earth really it is criminal just remember this is my veiw everyone is entitled to thiers >> There appears to be evidence that many people didn't attempt to leave >> their house, I'm wondering why?! [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > shape of form despite the warning that have been given out in the days > prior. I'm almost certain I caught a glimpse of "Craig Smith" <csmith@shoalhaven.net.au> on Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:14:59 GMT, writing in aus.electronics: >having just come home from a rotation at the fires there the amount of Apart from the top post the next thing I noticed is the absence of a spell checker. SignatureErik i am sure you would be a great help at least you would be able to spell correctly after getting 3 or 4 hrs sleep and 14 hr trip home i dont hide who i am i believe what i said > I'm almost certain I caught a glimpse of "Craig Smith" > <csmith@shoalhaven.net.au> on Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:14:59 GMT, writing in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Apart from the top post the next thing I noticed is the absence of a spell > checker. I'm almost certain I caught a glimpse of "Craig Smith" <csmith@shoalhaven.net.au> on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 01:09:23 GMT, writing in aus.electronics: >i am sure you would be a great help at least you would be able to spell >correctly after getting 3 or 4 hrs sleep and 14 hr trip home I understand where you are coming from. As a child your mum & dad didn't send you to school. Right? > i dont hide who i am i believe what i said For goodness sakes, what does that mean? I'm liable to making a typing/spelling mistake which is why I always use a spell checker. SignatureErik, pressing F7 for a spell check then Send. |
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