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Electronics Forum / Electronics / July 2008how much standby power do ALL your appliances use?
I just picked up a MS6115 energy meter from Jaycar. I went around the house and measured these devices - all on standby. You may be interested in the results. Microwave with door closed, showing clock on display 0W IR activated remote control curtains 0W Toaster with 7 segment standby indicator 0W Old dish washer with presumably no standby circuitry 0W New washing machine 12W New small-ish TV 12W 7 year old large TV 12W 7 year old DVD player 13W New DSTB 13W Around 6 year old DSE soldering iron station 7W (poor design, power switch is on secondary winding) Desktop PC 10W New HP Printer 9W 4 year old HP printer 7W Wireless router 10W Cable modem 5W Laptop with battery fully charged 7W New fridge with LED panel lit up, compressor not running 0W That's a total of 117W of 24 hour standby power. That equals 2.808 KWh per day of power. And our average energy bill for the last quarter..... 8.8KW average per day....... So just under ONE THIRD of our total power usage goes towards standby power. Isn't that crazy? Another interesting observation is that devices such as the fridge, the toaster and the microwave all use standby power but the MS6115 is not sensitive enough to register it. I have a device that turns off my two monitors and speakers when the PC is switched off. That would add another 20W easily. Solution? Turn stuff off at the wall. Will I do it? Probably not. I will however route the TV, DSTB, DVD player through the amplifier's auxiliary power output. I will now have to turn on the amplifier when I watch TV, but it will save a lot of standby power. "Phil in Melbourne" > I just picked up a MS6115 energy meter from Jaycar. ** Have you calibrated the meter ? Firstly, with say a 40 watt light bulb - should read 40 watts. Then, with a 10uF mains capacitor - should read zero. > I went around the house and measured these devices - all on standby. You > may be interested in the results. ** But you used a dodgy and uncalibrated meter. > Microwave with door closed, showing clock on display 0W > IR activated remote control curtains 0W [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > day of power. And our average energy bill for the last quarter..... 8.8KW > average per day....... ** A $100 power bill for a quarter is very low. You must use gas for nearly everything. > So just under ONE THIRD of our total power usage goes towards standby > power. Isn't that crazy? ** Nope - cos all that waste energy goes to heat up your house. Darn cold in Melbourne at the moment, ain't it? > Another interesting observation is that devices such as the fridge, the > toaster and the microwave all use standby power but the MS6115 is not > sensitive enough to register it. ** That meter is just not suitable for reading standby power - Jaycar make no claim that it is. > Solution? Turn stuff off at the wall. Will I do it? Probably not. ** Nah - that will only increase you gas heating bill. I suppose you house is full of CFLs too ?? ...... Phil > That's a total of 117W of 24 hour standby power. That equals 2.808 KWh per > day of power. And our average energy bill for the last quarter..... 8.8KW > average per day....... If you are dealing with mA current why not just make up a little rig so you can use a multimeter and get some accurate readings? For the high power stuff you can just walk out to your power box and see how long it takes to spin around. > So just under ONE THIRD of our total power usage goes towards standby > power. Isn't that crazy? The only thing crazy is your low bill! I would guess most people are at least 3 times that much. Though I remember a british study that said 10th of all home power is being used by standby, and it was enough for them to start banning devices from having a standby mode, effecitvely eliminating 'soft power' switches. They had some interesting circuits for TV's, because they want the remote control to actually phsyically switch a relay to turn power off completely. They used capacitors to store enough energy for the switch back on, and then there were arguments that that used more power than hours of > Solution? Turn stuff off at the wall. Will I do it? Probably not. The best idea I saw was a power board that would switch the outlet off when the power draw was under a certain amount for a certain amount of time, like less than 5W for more than 1 hour. Then you had to physically switch the outlet back on again. Saw them years ago in a british magazine and never saw of the device again (it was like 150 pounds for a 4 outlet powerboard, which is probably why...) > > Solution? Turn stuff off at the wall. Will I do it? Probably not. Not while it costs you more for billing ("service charge") than for the electricity used on those devices anyway! And before someone jumps in, generation plant, line costs (or wire size), transformer size, maintenance costs etc. are nearly ALL related to usage, NOT non-usage. Billing is about the only thing totally unrelated, yet costs a fortune IMO. And it's not just electricity billing that's a total rip off either. As with Bank charges, they charge whatever they can get away with, if you have no alternative. MrT. > The only thing crazy is your low bill! You must be an American. > I would guess most people are at > least 3 times that much. Though I remember a british study that said 10th of > all home power is being used by standby, and it was enough for them to start > banning devices from having a standby mode, effecitvely eliminating 'soft > power' switches. Pure TRIPE. No such ban exists. Get all your info from frothing-at-the-mouth journos do you ? There are however IEC guidelines for standy operation power consumption and they're hoping to get it down to ONE watt IIRC in new products. When I measured my set-top-cable-box I did however notice that it measured 17W in active OR 'standy mode'. Now that's inexcusable (Samsung btw and supplied by the cable co so no choice in the matter). Graham > > The only thing crazy is your low bill! > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > in active OR 'standy mode'. Now that's inexcusable (Samsung btw and supplied by > the cable co so no choice in the matter). And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging is the only way to stop the energy waste. Graham On Jun 9, 7:59 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > The only thing crazy is your low bill! > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Graham The new TV came without a line switch. Couple of bucks and five minutes and good-by stand by. > > > > The only thing crazy is your low bill! > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The new TV came without a line switch. Couple of bucks and five > minutes and good-by stand by. The MANUFACTURER should fit one. In this day and age such power hogs are INEXCUSABLE. My 21" Super-res CRT SONY PC monitor only consumes 3W in standby for example. Why should TVs be worse ? Graham On Jun 9, 9:22 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > beal...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Graham Because yanks get their energy at such low prices that they are more worried about appearances than energy saving. After all If they need more of anything they just go somewhere and take it. And yes, the MANUFACTURER should fit one. But it won't happen if the consumer does not make a point of asking for it. > On Jun 9, 9:22 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > And yes, the MANUFACTURER should fit one. But it won't happen if the > consumer does not make a point of asking for it. I agree. I also agree that Americans are to blame for most of what's wrong with the world too. Graham >> On Jun 9, 9:22 am, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Graham Don't blame us yanks if we can't sh.t.... Our a.shole's in Washington. > >>> beal...@gmail.com wrote: > >>>>>>> The only thing crazy is your low bill! [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Our a.shole's in Washington. You have my sympathies FWIW. OTOH they do say you get what you deserve. IMHO the entire way countries are governed needs radical overhaul with power being removed from rich individuals and corporations and placed in 'trust' with highly qualified and non-partisan experts in their fields. In short, being a 'party member' ought to be instant disqualification for holding office. Graham > > Our a.shole's in Washington. > > You have my sympathies FWIW. OTOH they do say you get what you deserve. Only half the population gets what they deserve (sometimes less), the rest are simply stuck with it. (even assuming the alternatives are any better, which they usually aren't) MrT. > > > Our a.shole's in Washington. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > are simply stuck with it. > (even assuming the alternatives are any better, which they usually aren't) You snipped most of what i wrote which it seems to me is pretty much to be expected from you. I suggest you google (or wiki) the concept of 'direct democracy'. Bye bye, rich individuals and corporations making our lives HELL. Graham > I suggest you google (or wiki) the concept of 'direct democracy'. Which doesn't apply in America OR Australia. Can you tell me when the last referendum on the issue was? (hint, there's never been one because politicians love to keep power for themselves. The day they relinquish any real power to the people, there will be ice skating in hell) Voting on ONE issue, only every three, four (or even 6 or 8) years is what I call "quasi democracy". Just gives the appearance of democracy while providing none. > Bye bye, rich individuals and corporations making our lives HELL. No argument there. And yet you claimed they get what they deserve. Then abuse me for simply disputing it. MrT. > > I suggest you google (or wiki) the concept of 'direct democracy'. > > Which doesn't apply in America OR Australia. WHO f.cking SAID IT DID ? Are you BRAIN DEAD as well as STUPID ? Graham > > > I suggest you google (or wiki) the concept of 'direct democracy'. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Are you BRAIN DEAD as well as STUPID ? No, that would be the person who introduced it in the discussion, IF they already know it's irrelevant.! MrT. > > > "Eeyore" wrote > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > No, that would be the person who introduced it in the discussion, IF they > already know it's irrelevant.! Did the word CHANGE fly so far over your head that your bi-focals missed it ? Graham > > I suggest you google (or wiki) the concept of 'direct democracy'. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > themselves. The day they relinquish any real power to the people, there will > be ice skating in hell) Are you OBJECTING to that ? I've had enough of stupid wars (and stupid Americans) to put up with it any more. #1 All American bases would be banned from UK (and other countries') soil. #2 Americans would have to be energy self-sufficient ! Yeah, sure I can dream. Graham >> > I suggest you google (or wiki) the concept of 'direct democracy'. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Graham Great idea. All American bases in ALL foreign countries need to be closed down and all American troops need to be pulled back to their bases in the USA. When the rest of the world disintegrates into internecine warfare those troops should be armed to the teeth with every weapon devised by man to keep ALL those who are not American citizens OUT of the USA until all the various territorial and racial disputes are settled. Then when the rest of the world settles down, say in 500 - 1000 years, the then current American government can send emissaries to those remaining places where a semblance of civilization has stabilized and ask the ruler if Americans can be of any assistance. If no assistance is needed then screw the Americans, leave them in Isolation.  SignatureDon Thompson Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once, and that makes me an expert. " > > "Mr.T" wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > down and all American troops need to be pulled back to their bases in the > USA. When the rest of the world disintegrates into internecine warfare Why would that happen ? All the most recent large wars have all been STARTED (or assisted) BY AMERICANS > those > troops should be armed to the teeth with every weapon devised by man to keep [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > assistance. If no assistance is needed then screw the Americans, leave them > in Isolation. You're an idiot. It's THE USA that needs to grow up. Graham >>> > I suggest you google (or wiki) the concept of 'direct democracy'. >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >assistance. If no assistance is needed then screw the Americans, leave them >in Isolation. I'm not sure that you go further enough. I'd recommend modifying your statement "ALL those who are not American citizens" to read 'not Native Americans or who's ancestors arrived in the Americas after 1650". that way you will get rid of all those people with funny names who clutter up our world. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom) > IMHO the entire way countries are governed needs radical overhaul with > power being removed from [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Graham That approach was tried, it was called communism, but come to find out it became all about being a loyal "party member". The central control of production commissars may have been described as "highly qualified" and "experts in their fields", but they had to be very loyal partisan supporters of the communist party, in fact that was often the only qualification needed. You just know experts like yourself should decide how "countries are governed" not the mindless populations of the nations in question. And it is only experts such as yourself that can identify those who are qualified, those you can believe are working for the best result. In other words those who can support your agenda and beliefs, all others must be marginalized and certainly not allowed to decide how their country, is governed. We've seen your approach and it's results. I'll take the more messy democratic (small d) and capitalistic approach, any day. Luck; Ken > > In short, being a 'party member' ought to be instant disqualification for > > holding office. > > That approach was tried, it was called communism, but come > to find out it became all about being a loyal "party member". Spot the contradiction. The Greeks did try democracy a few thousand years ago, although even then, not for all. I'm not sure we have improved on it though, but you are naturally welcome to your opinion. MrT. >> That approach was tried, it was called communism, but come >> to find out it became all about being a loyal "party member". > > Spot the contradiction. > > The Greeks did try democracy a few thousand years ago, So they did. So there is a lot of experience to draw on, thanks for pointing that out. (That is why you snipped and changed the whole context of my reply, right?) Luck; Ken > > "Ken Maltby" <kmaltby@sbcglobal.net> wrote > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > So they did. So there is a lot of experience to draw on, Yes, one of the most advanced civilisations prior to the modern period. Graham > >> That approach was tried, it was called communism, but come > >> to find out it became all about being a loyal "party member". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > thanks for pointing that out. (That is why you snipped and > changed the whole context of my reply, right?) Nope, your rant against communism was simply irrelevant. MrT. > > >> That approach was tried, it was called communism, but come > > >> to find out it became all about being a loyal "party member". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Nope, your rant against communism was simply irrelevant. We can agree on something at least ! How about Islam whilst we're being controversial ? Good, bad, indifferent ? Graham > How about Islam whilst we're being controversial ? Good, bad, > indifferent ? Most religions serve a purpose for the faithful, and a problem for everyone else. Pity hypocrisy and fanaticism is so rife in so many of them. Some Islamic's are just a bit more over-zealous than most. MrT. > > How about Islam whilst we're being controversial ? Good, bad, > > indifferent ? > > Most religions serve a purpose for the faithful Yeah, like stoning to death for sexual preferences or extra-marital sex. Good to see you're so enlightened. Graham > > IMHO the entire way countries are governed needs radical overhaul with > > power being removed from [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That approach was tried, it was called communism, Er no. Since when was there not a 'communist party' ? Your brain is obviously made of scrambled eggs. Graham "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> Don't blame us yanks if we can't sh.t.... >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In short, being a 'party member' ought to be instant disqualification for > holding office. As always, the question is who decides who is "qualified" and "non-partisan". I remember a sci-fi book I read years ago where holding office was a responsibility, not a right. One of the qualifiers for being elected was that you didn't want the position. Instead, you considered it your responsibility to govern if the society chose you to. Anyone who wanted to run was disqualified. > "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> Don't blame us yanks if we can't sh.t.... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > you didn't want the position. Instead, you considered it your responsibility to > govern if the society chose you to. Anyone who wanted to run was disqualified. No-one said it would be easy ! Thanks for your thoughts all the same. Graham >> > > > The only thing crazy is your low bill! >> > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > example. Why > should TVs be worse ? 3W is huge. My Sony S series LCD TV takes 0.2W in standby. Dave. > > My 21" Super-res CRT SONY PC monitor only consumes 3W in standby for > > example. Why should TVs be worse ? > > 3W is huge. My Sony S series LCD TV takes 0.2W in standby. 3W was state of the art for when it was manufactured. I'm certainly not going to fret over than when, if you'd read my earlier post the set-top-box my cable co supplies consumes 17W whether 'on' or in standy. It seems the 'standby' just switches off the front panel display and changes the colour of the switch illumination from green to red. Graham > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging is the > only way to stop the energy waste. No power switch on the wall socket? Best option, buy a switched power board then. MrT. > > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging > > is the only way to stop the energy waste. > > No power switch on the wall socket? Best option, buy a switched power board > then. It's not always conventionent to scrabble round on the floor underneat things is it ? THINK ! Graham >> > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so >> > unplugging [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > things > is it ? Are you playing some sort of word game here? If so, your word score so far is approaching zero. > THINK ! > > Graham >> > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging >> > is the only way to stop the energy waste. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >THINK ! You might take your own advice. Try Googling "extension cord". Wayne > >> > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging > >> > is the only way to stop the energy waste. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > You might take your own advice. Try Googling "extension cord". It's already on one ! And I can't say I've ever seen swiched outlet extensions in the shops either. Here's a typical one. http://www.chsinteractive.co.uk/electrical-components/electrical-accessories/mai ns-trailing-sockets-13amp/trailing-sockets-unswitched/4-gang-13amp-mains-extensi on-trailing-socket-neon-indicator-unswitched-white-length-2m.htm Besides, why would I want to scrabble around on the floor because the damn manufacturer was so incompetent ? Graham >> >> > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging >> >> > is the only way to stop the energy waste. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >the shops either. Here's a typical one. >http://www.chsinteractive.co.uk/electrical-components/electrical-accessories/mai ns-trailing-sockets-13amp/trailing-sockets-unswitched/4-gang-13amp-mains-extensi on-trailing-socket-neon-indicator-unswitched-white-length-2m.htm If you'd gone back in the hierarchy at that page and chosen "switched" instead of "unswitched", you'd have gotten here http://www.chsinteractive.co.uk/electrical-components/electrical-accessories/mai ns-trailing-sockets-13amp/trailing-sockets-switched.html. It's hard to imagine that anybody would write multiple posts to advertise that level of helplessness, but you're actually the second I've seen. Last time it was Gymmy Bob (aka John P Benji, Solar Fart, etc.) complaining about having to crawl under his desk to read a KillaWatt. Congrats. Wayne > >> >> > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging > >> >> > is the only way to stop the energy waste. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > etc.) complaining about having to crawl under his desk to read a > KillaWatt. Congrats. And this is your justication for Samsung NOT fitting a power switch that actually DOES SOMETHING. I do NOT wish to crawl under the furniutre every time I want to watch TV. I have limits. My entire house is CFL'd for Christ's sake and I've had them for decades but I take exception to nit wit comments like yours making a virtue of of incompetent design. Graham > I do NOT wish to crawl under the furniutre every time I want to watch TV. I have limits. You could try mounting the power board to your TV unit instead of moaning. I prefer having one power switch anyway, even though all my AV components do have mains switches. But I will admit my computer power board is on the floor, and I've been switching that every day for years. Maybe you are simply lazy and should just ignore the small amount of power drain. Even 17W is only about $5 a year. MrT. > > I do NOT wish to crawl under the furniutre every time I want to watch TV. > > I have limits. > > You could try mounting the power board to your TV unit instead of moaning. Or right, you want me to nail the power strip to the nice TV do you ? Clearly you've never had a wife or female partner. You could try shutting the f.ck UP and stop trying to excuse appaling product design by Samsung. Do they employ you ? If not, they SHOULD ! Graham > Or right, you want me to nail the power strip to the nice TV do you ? I prefer screws on the TV stand/cabinet, but whatever works for you. > Clearly you've never had a wife or female partner. Clearly you would be wrong, as usual. > You could try shutting the f.ck UP and stop trying to excuse appaling product > design by Samsung. Or tell your wife to STFU, and you do what's required :-) > Do they employ you ? If not, they SHOULD ! Probably so, I would have put a switch on it, even if I didn't expect to use it. But some manufacturers count every cent on product design. The choice was YOURS on whether to buy it or not. MrT.. > > Or right, you want me to nail the power strip to the nice TV do you ? > > I prefer screws on the TV stand/cabinet, but whatever works for you. PISS OFF c.nt You're a Samsung Slut obviously. >>> Or right, you want me to nail the power strip to the nice TV do you ? >> I prefer screws on the TV stand/cabinet, but whatever works for you. > > PISS OFF c.nt > > You're a Samsung Slut obviously. LOL, great entertainment. > >>> Or right, you want me to nail the power strip to the nice TV do you ? > >> I prefer screws on the TV stand/cabinet, but whatever works for you. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > LOL, great entertainment. One tries one's best to entertain. It's not always succesful, but one lives in hope. Grahama > Maybe you are simply lazy and should just ignore the small amount of power > drain. Even 17W is only about $5 a year. 17w 24/7 @ $5/yr = 3.36 cents per KWH. I want your power pricing from my E company. > > Maybe you are simply lazy and should just ignore the small amount of power > > drain. Even 17W is only about $5 a year. > > 17w 24/7 @ $5/yr = 3.36 cents per KWH. > > I want your power pricing from my E company. Electricity in the UK is typically around 9p (18c) per kWh. I make that £134 / annum ! That's INSANE. Tell me I'm wrong. Graham > > > Maybe you are simply lazy and should just ignore the small amount of power > > > drain. Even 17W is only about $5 a year. > > > > 17w 24/7 @ $5/yr = 3.36 cents per KWH. > > > > I want your power pricing from my E company. You are correct, more like $20 to $25 *MINUS* the time/cost it would be ON anyway. What his actual usage is we don't know. > Electricity in the UK is typically around 9p (18c) per kWh. > > I make that £134 / annum ! That's INSANE. Tell me I'm wrong. Yes, You are wrong! (as usual) But at least you knew it this time, it seems. Try 13.40 UKPounds MINUS what it costs to run when you are actually using it. Of course if you DON'T use it, simply unplug it from the mains. Problem solved !!!!!!!!!!! MrT. > Of course if you DON'T use it, simply unplug it from the mains. Problem > solved !!!!!!!!!!! Then the stupid thing has to power up from scratch every time I want to use it going through self-test and what not. AND the mains plug is NOT conveniently located. Graham >> > Maybe you are simply lazy and should just ignore the small amount of >> > power [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I make that £134 / annum ! That's INSANE. Tell me I'm wrong. ?? Okay, you're wrong. 17 w * 24hrs/day * 365 days/yr = 148.9 kWh / year 148.9 kWhr / year * 9p /kWhr = 13.40£ / year daestrom (unless you were talking the older penny, shilling, pound, I never did understand that currency very well) >> >> >> > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging >> >> >> > is the only way to stop the energy waste. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >And this is your justication for Samsung NOT fitting a power switch that actually DOES SOMETHING. Putting words in my mouth makes the weakness of your position pretty clear. >I do NOT wish to crawl under the furniutre every time I want to watch TV. <sigh> Mount the power switch on the underside of the table or whatever. If you can't work this out then you're simply too feeble to be helped. > I have limits. My entire house is CFL'd for Christ's sake and I've had them for decades but I take exception to nit wit comments like yours making a >virtue of of incompetent design. I don't care if you're the son of Mother Theresa and Santa Claus. The fact is that adding a switched cord to an appliance could be done by the average 8-year-old. I gotta' say, reading Usenet is absolutely the fastest way to find someone claiming to be an electronics designer with a high IQ and advertising that adding a switched cord to an appliance is beyond his ability. If truth-in-advertising laws ever become truly effective, then you'll be required to add this thread to your resume. Wayne wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:> KillaWatt. Congrats. > Putting words in my mouth makes the weakness of your position pretty > clear. I'll put something PAINFUL up your f.cking BACKSIDE if you don't STFU and accept that Samsung are a bunch of incompetent pricks. Graham >wmbjkREMOVE@citlink.net wrote:> KillaWatt. Congrats. > >> Putting words in my mouth makes the weakness of your position pretty >> clear. > >I'll put something PAINFUL up your f.cking BACKSIDE if you don't STFU and accept that Samsung are a bunch of incompetent pricks. Oh man! Let's review your personas so far - 1. All-knowing sage demanding that another "THINK". 2. High IQ electronics designer of "repute" who couldn't think of using a switched power cord. 3. Feeble shopper pretending that switched cords are hard to find. 4. Whiny bonehead who refuses to accept that using a switched cord doesn't require floor-crawling. 5. Career victim of his cable outfit and Samsung. 6. Usenet advocate for other victims of such corporations. As if that wasn't enough, now you're supposed to be what, a Hell's Angel? Tony Soprano? Hilarious. Here's what I think - you're just some retired guy who has nothing better to do than post all day every day on Usenet, and you work on the theory that on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. The thing is, that truism doesn't apply to really really really dumb dogs. Oh, and in case you're ever in the job market again, here's something to help you get a clue http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/usenetidiot.jpg. Wayne > And I can't say I've ever seen swiched outlet extensions in > the shops either. Try a better shop then. MrT. > > And I can't say I've ever seen swiched outlet extensions in > > the shops either. > > Try a better shop then. GO f.ck YOURSELF Do you work for Samsung btw ? Graham > GO f.ck YOURSELF This shows your best debating skills I suppose. Not that I have come to expect any better from you. > Do you work for Samsung btw ? Nope, I couldn't give a rat's what you choose to buy without first checking it meets your basic requirements. You are now simply stating a power switch is one you forgot to check for. BTW how do you switch off all your plug packs, or do you just leave them on, then complain about something else? MrT. > > GO f.ck YOURSELF > > This shows your best debating skills I suppose. Let me explain ..... > GO f.ck YOURSELF The CATV offers NO option receiver, so you're stuck with their SAMSUNG POS. I have no intention of rolling around on the floor grasping under pieces of furniture to switch off a TOTALLY INCOMPETENTLY designed pice of kit every time I want to use it. Maon at SAMSUNG not me. Do you NOT even begine to realise how infuriated I am with their POS box ? Model number SMT-2110C btw. Graham >>> GO f.ck YOURSELF >> This shows your best debating skills I suppose. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > with their POS box ? > Graham Jesus Graham, I wish I knew you IRL... I'd have endless fun setting you into a rage :) > >>> GO f.ck YOURSELF > >> This shows your best debating skills I suppose. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Jesus Graham, I wish I knew you IRL... > I'd have endless fun setting you into a rage :) Nah. I'm a pussy cat. I just do this to amuse and/or deal with UTTER FUCKWITS. The inability of most people to intelligently use the contents of their cranium is a constant source of distress and simple bemusement to me. Graham >> I'd have endless fun setting you into a rage :) > Nah. I'm a pussy cat. I just do this to amuse and/or deal with UTTER FUCKWITS. > > The inability of most people to intelligently use the contents of their cranium is a > constant source of distress and simple bemusement to me. Must be hilarious when you look in the mirror then. MrT. > > Jeßus wrote: > > > >> I'd have endless fun setting you into a rage :) > > Nah. I'm a pussy cat. I just do this to amuse and/or deal with UTTER > > FUCKWITS. Actually, I'd probably just have fun enjoying a drink with you. You come across as pretty sound. > > The inability of most people to intelligently use the contents of their > > cranium is a constant source of distress and simple bemusement to me. > > Must be hilarious when you look in the mirror then. So your IQ must be > 154 then ? You know what an IQ is btw ? My physchological profile is pretty f.cking excellent too aside from having LOW tolerance for COMPLETE FUCKWITS like YOU. Graham Perhaps they require the unit to be powered even when in standby, so that it will continue to receive program or other updates from the cable company? This would not happen if you could actually completely turn the power off to it, in which case it may miss a required update. >> > GO f.ck YOURSELF >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Graham > Perhaps they require the unit to be powered even when in standby, so that it > will continue to receive program or other updates from the cable company? That would explain PART of the power consumption. > This would not happen if you could actually completely turn the power off to > it, in which case it may miss a required update. And then it requires a complete 'power-on-self-test' when it's largely non-functional. Utter POS Samsung 2110C. Graham >> > And I can't say I've ever seen swiched outlet extensions in >> > the shops either. >> >> Try a better shop then. > > GO f.ck YOURSELF How long IS that stick up your butt? You certainly are hyper-reactive. Have you ever considered being a civil person here? Or should I just plonk you? All you seem to do here is jump on people for not thinking exactly like you. > > "Mr.T" wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ever considered being a civil person here? Or should I just plonk you? All you > seem to do here is jump on people for not thinking exactly like you. Let me please try and briefly explain. There is ONE CATV Co, in the UK effectively. They are incompetent in so many ways even to begin with that I would not rather muddle the isssue by introducing that - but let me say that their billing dept is the closest thing I have come to in real life to an Alice in Wonderland.scenario. Now, they provide a STB, whose power consumption I have discovered does not change whether it is 'ON' or in 'standy'. Mea Culpa for discovering this ! I could have lived in happy ignorance, thinking the red LED meant it was in low power mode. But NO ! It ISN'T. Furthermore the STB is fitted with NO 'hard' power switch that would enable me to save the 17W it consumes. Indeed, in any event of a 'crash' you have to dis-and-re-connect the power lead. Now it seems that some geeky twats think I should invest in a switched power strip that I can crawl around the floor on to turn this POS truly 'off' when not in use. Fine, but I don't WANT to go carpet skiing every f.cking single time I want to watch TV or NOT. EXCUSE ME but I expect the BLOODY manufacturer of the STB ( ***SAMSUNG***) to have been at least half-competent in providing this function for me. Get it ? Is it really TOO MUCH to ask ? Graham >> > "Mr.T" wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Get it ? Is it really TOO MUCH to ask ? My response did not relate to the technical problem. It related to your attitude and methods here. Someone made a reasonable responce to your problem, and you overreacted obnoxiously and crudely. As you very often seem to react to anyone with a different opinion from yours. You either are a troll, aksing to be plonked, or you have a real anger management problem. > My response did not relate to the technical problem You bet ! > It related to your attitude and methods here. Someone made a reasonable responce response. please take the time to spell right. > to your problem, No, they made a STUPID response involving scrabbling around under furniture to turn off a piece of equipment that should have been designed PROPERLY in the first place. WHY are you so PRO bad design ? Graham >> My response did not relate to the technical problem > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > WHY are you so PRO bad design ? I am not. If you can't figure out how to add a switch that's is easily usable, maybe you need to go back to engineeering school. If samsung choses to design products poorly, I will choose not to use them. You chose to use it - live with it. What good does it do to swear at people here? > "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > > > WHY are you so PRO bad design ? > > I am not. If you can't figure out how to add a switch that's is easily usable, > maybe you need to go back to engineeering school. It should not be the CONSUMER'S job to add a switch. Just because ***I*** could add a switch without too much trouble doesn't make the product any better ! Why are you so mentally feeble ? The PRODUCT should have been adequately designed so that it doesn't take an expert to reduce the standby power consumption ! STOP EXCUSING BAD DESIGN, I am here being the advocate for the average consumer who doesn't know these things, as any DECENT designer SHOULD be. Graham >> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Just because ***I*** could add a switch without too much trouble Too funny. You finally admit that it isn't difficult, but only after writing dozens of posts pretending that it is! >doesn't make the >product any better ! > >Why are you so mentally feeble ? That seems to be a perfect example of your best debate efforts. You might try a far lower posting volume combined with a whole lot more thinking. >The PRODUCT should have been adequately designed so that it doesn't take an expert >to reduce the standby power consumption ! I agree that many products need better design to lessen standby consumption. But in this case, it doesn't take an expert to cure the problem at your end. Any little kid could handle it. >STOP EXCUSING BAD DESIGN, Nobody in this thread has excused bad design. Your pathetic attempts to excuse your own lack of critical thinking by pounding out dozens of posts full of non-sequiturs and silly insults is embarrassing to read. > I am here being the advocate for the average consumer who >doesn't know these things, as any DECENT designer SHOULD be. Oh please. If there's anybody depending on your brand of advocacy, somebody should roll them out of bed. Wayne > >> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Too funny. You finally admit that it isn't difficult, but only after > writing dozens of posts pretending that it is! I could do it but then I'd be in breach of contract for modifying the cable Co's equipment. Graham >> >> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > cable Co's > equipment. You'd be in breach for adding a remote control and/or auto mains switch? Dave. >>>>> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>> WHY are you so PRO bad design ? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You'd be in breach for adding a remote control and/or auto mains switch? How difficult would it be to assemble something like this? +--------+ 2-conductor cord +--------+ power cord | switch +----------------------+ outlet +----------------<E mains plug +--------+ +--------+ Plug into the wall outlet, plug the TV into the cord's outlet, put the switch in a convenient place and use it to control TV power. You could even make the cord between the switch and the outlet long enough to put the switch next to where you sit to watch TV. SignatureMorris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/ >>>>>> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>>> WHY are you so PRO bad design ? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > cord between the switch and the outlet long enough to put the switch next to > where you sit to watch TV. I don't think he really wants a solution to the problem. If he did, he would have solved it ages ago. He just wants to bitch about a perceived "wrong", and then swear at people that don't immediately agree with his opinion exactly. > I don't think he really wants a solution to the problem. If he did, he would > have solved it ages ago. He just wants to bitch about a perceived "wrong", and > then swear at people that don't immediately agree with his opinion exactly. Whereas you think bad product design is the consumer's fault apparently. Graham >> I don't think he really wants a solution to the problem. If he did, he would >> have solved it ages ago. He just wants to bitch about a perceived "wrong", >> and >> then swear at people that don't immediately agree with his opinion exactly. > > Whereas you think bad product design is the consumer's fault apparently. Guess again. > How difficult would it be to assemble something like this? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > even make the cord between the switch and the outlet long enough to put > the switch next to where you sit to watch TV. Well, the 'switched' wall outlet is inconveniently located (consider it inaccessible), so everything is run from multi-outlet extension leads (none of which are switched and I don't ever recall seing a switched one in a UK store). Secondly, if you physically remove power from the STB, you then have to wait around 3 mins while it 'self-tests' etc during which time you get no TV picture or sound. Following this it takes up to 10 minures more for the programme guide to 'catch up' too (althought that alone is of less bother to me). The fact is that Samsung need their backsides kicking for making such a sloppy piece of kit. Graham > Well, the 'switched' wall outlet is inconveniently located (consider it > inaccessible), so everything is run from multi-outlet extension leads (none of > which are switched and I don't ever recall seing a switched one in a UK store). Understood. That's why I suggested what I did (wondering as I did so why I'd never seen what I was drawing in a store). > Secondly, if you physically remove power from the STB, you then have to wait > around 3 mins while it 'self-tests' etc during which time you get no TV picture > or sound. Following this it takes up to 10 minures more for the programme guide > to 'catch up' too (althought that alone is of less bother to me). I agree that this seems like a consumer unfriendly design. Seems like you should be able to manually select a channel and watch it while the box does its internal housekeeping. > The fact is that Samsung need their backsides kicking for making such a sloppy > piece of kit. Well, I'm not going to kick their butt for you - but you can tell 'em I said I wouldn't have such an unfriendly POS in /my/ house. :-) SignatureMorris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/ > > Well, the 'switched' wall outlet is inconveniently located (consider it > > inaccessible), so everything is run from multi-outlet extension leads (none of > > which are switched and I don't ever recall seing a switched one in a UK store). > > Understood. That's why I suggested what I did (wondering as I did so why > I'd never seen what I was drawing in a store). However you know those 'torpedo switch' type things that were once popular for table lamps etc which is what I imagined you might have in mind for a switch ? Those are now strictly verboten (and unavailable) on safety grounds. Too many cases of electrocution. > > Secondly, if you physically remove power from the STB, you then have to wait > > around 3 mins while it 'self-tests' etc during which time you get no TV picture [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you should be able to manually select a channel and watch it while the > box does its internal housekeeping. That would be a big improvement. > > The fact is that Samsung need their backsides kicking for making such a sloppy > > piece of kit. > > Well, I'm not going to kick their butt for you - but you can tell 'em I > said I wouldn't have such an unfriendly POS in /my/ house. :-) I certainly will. Graham > "Eeyore" wrote in message > >> >> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > You'd be in breach for adding a remote control and/or auto mains switch? It HAS a remote control that puts it into the same non-power-saving standy mode as the button on the front. Graham >> "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> WHY are you so PRO bad design ? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Graham 4 WHY DON'T YOU-YES BUT Thesis. "Why Don't You—Yes But" occupies a special place in game analysis, because it was the original stimulus for the concept of games. It was the first game to be dissected out of its social context, and since it is the oldest subject of game analysis, it is one of the best understood. It is also the game most commonly played at parties and groups of all kinds, including psychotherapy groups. The following example will serve to illustrate its main characteristics: White: "My husband always insists on doing our own repairs, and he never builds anything right." Black: "Why doesn't he take a course in carpentry?" White: "Yes, but he doesn't have time." Blue: "Why don't you buy him some good tools'?" White: "Yes, but he doesn't know how to use them." Red: "Why don't you have your building done by a carpenter?" White: "Yes, but that would cost too much." Brown: "Why don't you just accept what he does the way he does it}" White: "Yes, but the whole thing might fall down." Such an exchange is typically followed by a silence. It is eventually broken by Green, who may say something like, "That's men for you, always trying to show how efficient they are." YDYB can be played by any number. The agent presents a problem. The others start to present solutions, each beginning with "Why don't you . . . ?" To each of these White objects with a "Yes, but. ..." A good player can stand off the others indefinitely until they all give up, whereupon White wins. In many situations she might have to handle a dozen or more solutions to engineer the crestfallen silence which signifies her victory, and which leaves the field open for the next game in the above paradigm, Green switching into "PI A," Delinquent Husband Type. Since the solutions are, with rare exceptions, rejected, it is apparent that this game must serve some ulterior purpose. YDYB is not played for its ostensible purpose (an Adult quest for information or solutions), but to reassure and gratify the Child. Starts at page 49: http://www.geocities.com/ripxburn/ericberne-gamespeopleplay.pdf 591 kb. > > WHY are you so PRO bad design ? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If samsung choses to design products poorly, I will choose not to use them. You > chose to use it - live with it. I didn't choose it. There is no choice. It's what the catv people supply. I said that at the very beginning. Graham >> > WHY are you so PRO bad design ? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > said > that at the very beginning. And you chose to use it. Nobody made you. Just cancel the service and you will have your life back. > > Bob F wrote: > >> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And you chose to use it. Nobody made you. Just cancel the service and you will > have your life back. I want the SERVICE thanks. Just not the £15 electricity bill. It's just occurred to me that Australians must be a bit like Americans in their attitude to energy wastefulness. Graham >> to your problem, > > No, they made a STUPID response involving scrabbling around under > furniture to turn > off a piece of equipment that should have been designed PROPERLY in the > first place. What is wrong with the remote control or auto power switch idea? One or both products are designed to solve problems exactly like that. Turn your TV off, the STB switches off. Turn your TV on, STB switches on - easy. Or do it from your armchair with a remote control. Dave. > > Bob F wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What is wrong with the remote control Just how many MORE remote controls do you suggest I need ? The one that comes with it puts it into the same non-power-saving mode that the button on the front does. > or auto power switch idea? One or both > products are designed to solve problems exactly like that. > > Turn your TV off, the STB switches off. Turn your TV on, STB switches on - > easy. Or do it from your armchair with a remote control. And then you get the 3 minute 'power-on self-test' sequence. Thanks a bundle for that idiotic idea. Technology is meant to solve problems not CREATE them. Graham >> > Bob F wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > front > does. *yawn* >> or auto power switch idea? One or both >> products are designed to solve problems exactly like that. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bundle for > that idiotic idea. You're most welcome. So lets see now, there are two thing that piss you off with this product in your situation (apart from the design aspect no one has ever argued): 1) It's inconvenient to switch on and off 2) It takes 3 minutes to "boot up" Yet you'd presumably like to lower the power consumption when not being used. Hmm, nows lets think real hard about this for about one second... Oh, I know, there is this amazing product called a mains timer, you can get them for a few bucks from your hardware or grocery store. What it does it really amazing, it allows you to switch off appliances based on your usage habits, you just program the on-off times. Have it come on before you will need it, and bingo, no power-on problem. Amazing. You sleep at reasonably predictable times like most people I'm assuming? Have it switch off while you are sleeping for starters. That might be a third of a day off, not a bad saving, timer would probably pay for itself in a year. Dave. > Yet you'd presumably like to lower the power consumption when not being > used. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You sleep at reasonably predictable times like most people I'm assuming? Absolutely not. > Have it switch off while you are sleeping for starters. That might be a > third of a day off, not a bad saving, timer would probably pay for itself in > a year. You know, I'd thought of that but I don't work fixed hours and my waking/sleeping patterns are quite unusual. Neat idea but not practical here. Graham >Now it seems that some geeky twats No, they're just people who happen to know what a switched power cord is. >think I should invest in a switched power strip >that I can crawl around the floor on to turn this POS truly 'off' when not in use. No, you don't have to crawl on the floor unless you're too dim to mount the switch in an easily accessible location. >Fine, but I don't WANT to go carpet skiing every f.cking single time I want to >watch TV or NOT. EXCUSE ME but I expect the BLOODY manufacturer of the STB ( >***SAMSUNG***) to have been at least half-competent in providing this function for >me. > >Get it ? Is it really TOO MUCH to ask ? My gawd, your victim routine is hilarious. Please keep this thread going! Wayne > > > And I nearly forgot to say, no 'hard' power switch either, so unplugging > > > is the only way to stop the energy waste. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's not always conventionent to scrabble round on the floor underneat things > is it ? And the power board HAS to be placed "on the floor underneat things", WHY exactly? (mine isn't) > THINK ! Because YOU can't? MrT. > And the power board HAS to be placed "on the floor underneath things", WHY > exactly? (mine isn't) You want people tripping over it and injuring themselves ? I'm having GREAT trouble how you think all of this excuses inherently incompetent product design by Samsung. When the power switch says 'standby' it BLOODY WELL ought to use LESS power, not just change the colour of the effing LED ! Jesus, many companies could manage this simple task at least TWENTY years ago. Graham On Jun 10, 2:40 pm, Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelati...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > And the power board HAS to be placed "on the floor underneath things", WHY > > exactly? (mine isn't) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Graham If this TV pisses you off so much (and I don't blame you, it would me), why do you continue to own it? And why didn't you return it for a refund and buy another brand? If you are stuck with it for whatever reason there are other ways to switch the TV off. Like the use of auto switching power boards that switch off all appliances down the chain when one "master" appliance switches off. And there are remote control power switches too, they can be very convenient. Dave. > If this TV pisses you off so much (and I don't blame you, it would > me), why do you continue to own it? It's NOT a TV. It's a f.cking STB made by Samsung. SMT-2110C. The TV itself is the LAST of my problems. > And why didn't you return it for a refund and buy another brand? Can't. The CATV Co. supplies the kit. NO OPTION. No alternative. Graham >> If this TV pisses you off so much (and I don't blame you, it would >> me), why do you continue to own it? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Can't. The CATV Co. supplies the kit. NO OPTION. No alternative. It isn't that hard. Just cancel the service and give it back. Think of the stress relief. It is so hard for us to watch your life being ruined by this thing. > > "David L. Jones" wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > stress relief. It is so hard for us to watch your life being ruined by this > thing. Bizarre as it may seem, and quite frankly it strikes so anyway, they do actually provide some useful extra channels with worthwhile content.. Or else yes, it would go back to then by ballistic delivery with the hope of it injuring someone's worthless cranium. Graham > >> If this TV pisses you off so much (and I don't blame you, it would > >> me), why do you continue to own it? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > stress relief. It is so hard for us to watch your life being ruined by this > thing. He has no life. That is why he is always braying like a demented jackass, all over the electronics newsgroups. Add in that he's British... Signaturehttp://improve-usenet.org/index.html If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep. > If you are stuck with it for whatever reason there are other ways to > switch the TV off. Like the use of auto switching power boards that > switch off all appliances down the chain when one "master" appliance > switches off. And there are remote control power switches too, they > can be very convenient. Oh FFS, what kind of EXCUSE is that for fundamental POOR DESIGN ? I'm an electronics designer of some repute. I would be mortified to design a device that saved NO energy in 'standby' mode. Graham >> If you are stuck with it for whatever reason there are other ways to >> switch the TV off. Like the use of auto switching power boards that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Oh FFS, what kind of EXCUSE is that for fundamental POOR DESIGN ? Settle down. I was not implying in any way that it's an excuse for poor design, I don't know how you got that impression. I was merely pointing out options on how to fix the power consumption if you are forced to use a POS like this. Better than flapping your arms around and saying how crap it is. > I'm an electronics designer of some repute. I would be mortified to design > a > device that saved NO energy in 'standby' mode. So would I. Dave. > > "David L. Jones" wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Settle down. Oh, don't worry, my bark is worse than my bite. > I was not implying in any way that it's an excuse for poor design, I don't > know how you got that impression. I was merely pointing out options on how > to fix the power consumption if you are forced to use a POS like this. > Better than flapping your arms around and saying how crap it is. Since there is just the ONE CATV Co. in this country and no choice of receiver exists to the best of my knowledge asive from HD based versions, what else can one do ? It's the ONLY power-hog I have. Actually, I was considering contacting Sansung, Virgin Media (the CATV Co. but not expecting any sense from them) and various 'green' organsations to broaden the knowledge about this fraud. > > I'm an electronics designer of some repute. I would be mortified to design > > a device that saved NO energy in 'standby' mode. > > So would I. Agreed then. Graham <snip> > Like the use of auto switching power boards that > switch off all appliances down the chain when one "master" appliance > switches off. Interesting. Who makes these? |
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