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Electronics Forum / Electronics / March 2007Remember THIS Post ?
Feb 20, 2007. " ** Anyone seen tonight's news ?? Our fuckwit pollies have all climbed on a VERY dodgy Greenie bandwagon with this asinine idea. Like that episode of "Yes Minister" where Sir Humphrey explained the mysteries of " Politicians logic " to the minister like this ..... " Imagine a very serious problem has been identified ..... So, WE politicians must do * SOMETHING * about it and soon !!! NEXT: along comes an idea that seems to be in the right direction ... Immediately the worried pollies all howl in unison THIS * IS * SOMETHING !!!!! Therefore * WE * must do it !!!! " The plain truth is that CFLs consume enormously more energy in their creation and distribution than the familiar incandescent bulb. PLUS - dead ones generate ENORMOUSLY more and far more SERIOUS environmental pollution than tiny bit of glass and burnt tungsten wire does. PLUS - they are a absolute pig to dim. PLUS - they generate harsh, fluorescent tube type light the nobody likes in their homes. PLUS - they are often slow to light up which can be a serious safety hazard in many situations. Anyone care to add to the list of NEGATIVE impacts ?? BTW: Bet Leo gets all fired up. " ** Well - the man has. See the April 2007 edition " Silicon Chip " when it arrives. ...... Phil More Regurgitated drivel We hate you Philis > Feb 20, 2007. > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > ....... Phil >More >Regurgitated drivel >We hate you Philis hes actually right with about 70% for the most part, some being probabilistic, like turn on time and lifespan *but* his method of imparting these posts makes him look stupid therefore his posts might well have the opposite effect therefore he is prob a mouthpiece for big business... The question arises then:- Does he want to look stupid and undisciplined, was he not breast fed or what other reason could he have for being so agressive, does he need viagra or some other stimulants other than being compelled to swear on technical topics...  SignatureRegards Mike * VK/VL Commodore FuseRails that wont warp or melt with fuse failure indication and now with auto 10-15 min timer for engine illumination option. * VN, VP, VR Models with relay holder in progress. * Twin Tyres to suit most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars http://niche.iinet.net.au > The question arises then:- > > Does he want to look stupid and undisciplined, was he not breast fed > or what other reason could he have for being so agressive, does he > need viagra or some other stimulants other than being compelled to > swear on technical topics... He WAS breast fed, but by his dad. SignatureService to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85. Michael A. Terrell Central Florida > Feb 20, 2007. > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > See the April 2007 edition " Silicon Chip " when it arrives. Thought it didn't come out for another week or so, how did you get the inside goss? BTW, did anyone ever post that infamous SC editorial about Aus.Electronics? Dave :) "David L. Jones" "Phil Allison" >> " ** Anyone seen tonight's news ?? >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Thought it didn't come out for another week or so, how did you get the > inside goss? ** See: http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm At the end of the intro paras. ....... Phil > "David L. Jones" > "Phil Allison" [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > ........ Phil The ElectroCap bulging looks like one of the faulty batch we experienced in computers a while ago. Same colour and appears to be same brand... "Jonno" the TROLL ???? ** An obvious fake name for an obvious bloody FAKE !!!!!! This brainless, autistic c.nt can go & top post his ASININE SHITE on some other newsgroup. One chock full of slimy ASD scumbags, just like him. Like " aus.cars " or " aus.tv " or " alt.kooks " What f.cking ever ..... f.ck THE HELL OFF from " aus.electronics" ...... Phil >>> BTW: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > At the end of the intro paras. Pity the person who wrote this article has no idea about power generation and system losses. Actual system losses in NSW for Transgrid was 2.7% for year ended 30/6/06, and for Integral Energy 4.96%, giving a total system loss for Integral Energy customers of 7.7%. Claiming "distribution losses can reach 20% easily (and I have even heard as high as 50% in some cases where extremely long feeders [several hundred kilometres] are used)" is totally wrong. Also the article states:"A (now empty) CFL pack I have states the colour temperature as 3500K, and says that the lamps are 8W (equivalent to 40W). It also claims the current to be 80mA (but I measured it as 60mA, a rating of ~17VA ... not 8W at all, giving a power factor of 0.47). The actual generating capacity needed is therefore closer to ½ that of the 40W incandescent lamp, not ¼ as claimed. People are being seriously mislead by the term 'power' - as noted above, this may be what you pay for, but is not what must be generated." This is wrong also. Any modern generator can provide significant reactive generating capability, even when working at full load. For example the 660MW units at Eraring power station can produce 410 MVAr of reactive power while generating 660MW of real power (more at lower load). The prime mover only needs to provide real power (not the reactive power), so no additional coal (and green house gas) is required above the real power drawn by the lamp. In addition reactive plant is typically installed in switch yards close to the demand, avoiding reactive losses on the transmission lines. Transgrid has 3300MVAr of shunt capacitors installed on the Newcastle / Sydney / Wollongong 330kV and 132kV system. An 8W lamp will require approx 8.6W generation capacity, versus 43W required for an incandescent lamp. David "David the f.cking Know Nothing ARSEHOLE " > Pity the person who wrote this article has no idea about power generation > and system losses. Actual system losses in NSW for Transgrid was 2.7% for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as 50% in some cases where extremely long feeders [several hundred > kilometres] are used)" is totally wrong. ** No it is not !!!!!!! Your figures are total crap - just as before, many times. The main loss occurs in long HV lines from power station to the relevant state capital. In NSW, there is a massive % loss when excess power is sent down to the Snowy overnight and comes back to Sydney at peak periods. A huge transmission distance, with electric pumps and hydro genes involved. > Also the article states:"A (now empty) CFL pack I have states the colour > temperature as 3500K, and says that the lamps are 8W (equivalent to 40W). [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the term 'power' - as noted above, this may be what you pay for, but is > not what must be generated." > This is wrong also. Any modern generator can provide significant reactive > generating capability, ** The load of a CFL is not one tiny bit REACTIVE - you f.cking brain dead a.s. > The prime mover only needs to provide real power (not the reactive power), ** It must provide all cabling losses and when the PF is circa 0.5, they are 4 times higher. It significantly diminishes the max capacity of the generator - as was stated in the article. > In addition reactive plant is typically installed in switch yards close to > the demand, avoiding reactive losses on the transmission lines. Transgrid > has 3300MVAr of shunt capacitors installed on the Newcastle / Sydney / > Wollongong 330kV and 132kV system. ** The load of a CFL is NOT reactive - you f.cking BRAIN DEAD a.s !!!!!!!!! Adding parallel C does not help one tiny bit !!! My GOD - where do all these PIG IGNORANT, ASD f.cked c.nts COME FROM ? ........ Phil > "David the f.cking Know Nothing ARSEHOLE " > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Your figures are total crap - just as before, many times. No, my figures are actual figures from the relevant transmission bodies. If you think they are wrong, please provide your figures to prove it. > The main loss occurs in long HV lines from power station to the relevant > state capital. No they are not. As I quoted before the total system losses for the long HV lines owned by Transgrid for the year ended 30/6/06 was 2.7%. Higher losses occur in the lower voltage distribution network, as the voltages are lower, and currents are higher. > In NSW, there is a massive % loss when excess power is sent down to the > Snowy overnight and comes back to Sydney at peak periods. A huge > transmission distance, with electric pumps and hydro genes involved. Care to quote a figure to substantiate your claim? I doubt you can, as you never have in the past. >> Also the article states:"A (now empty) CFL pack I have states the colour >> temperature as 3500K, and says that the lamps are 8W (equivalent to 40W). [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It significantly diminishes the max capacity of the generator - as was > stated in the article. No it doesn't. An 8W CF only requires 8W + transmission losses of generation power. A 40W incandescent requires 40W + transmission losses. Assuming the CF has a power factor of 0.5 (and it is not corrected before the HV transmission system) the transmission losses are still 6 times greater for the incandescent lamp. >> In addition reactive plant is typically installed in switch yards close to >> the demand, avoiding reactive losses on the transmission lines. Transgrid [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Adding parallel C does not help one tiny bit !!! Off course it does. Many of these are in the form of static compensators, which can switch in part cycle to improve the power factor, and reduce harmonics. A bit complicated for a toaster technician. David "David the f.cking Know Nothing ARSEHOLE " >> ** No it is not !!!!!!! >> >> Your figures are total crap - just as before, many times. > > No, my figures are actual figures from the relevant transmission bodies. ** Post the actual source. Cos they are WRONG !! Just like that ASININE ** PR BULLSHIT ** about LED traffic lights was . >> The main loss occurs in long HV lines from power station to the relevant >> state capital. > > No they are not. ** Fraid they are. >> In NSW, there is a massive % loss when excess power is sent down to the >> Snowy overnight and comes back to Sydney at peak periods. A huge >> transmission distance, with electric pumps and hydro genes involved. > > Care to quote a figure to substantiate your claim? ** The overall loss Sydney to Snowy to Sydney is over 60%. I am amazed it is not a lot more. >>> Also the article states:"A (now empty) CFL pack I have states the colour >>> temperature as 3500K, and says that the lamps are 8W (equivalent to [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > No it doesn't. An 8W CF only requires 8W + transmission losses of > generation power. ** When the PF is 0.5 - the heat dissipation in the power station gene is FOUR times what it is with a PF of 1. That is what the ESP web page says. YOU f.cking STUPID a.s !!!!!!!! >>> In addition reactive plant is typically installed in switch yards close >>> to the demand, avoiding reactive losses on the transmission lines. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Off course it does. ** BOLLOCKS. There is no damn phase angle to correct. Cos the load of a CFL is NOT reactive - you f.cking BRAIN DEAD a.s !!!!!!!!! Adding parallel C does not help one tiny bit !!! My GOD - where do all these PIG IGNORANT, ASD f.cked c.nts COME FROM ? ........ Phil > "David the f.cking Know Nothing ARSEHOLE " > >>> ** No it is not !!!!!!! >>> >>> Your figures are total crap - just as before, many times. >> No, my figures are actual figures from the relevant transmission bodies. ** No, my smartarse over snipping, context shifting friend, YOU are plain wrong. Here is what you snipped out: No, my figures are actual figures from the relevant transmission bodies. If you think they are wrong, please provide your figures to prove it. I am still waiting for you to post your figures and sources. System losses I quoted are from relevant transmission authorities: http://www.transgrid.com.au/trim/trim213531.pdf on Page 2 and http://integral.com.au/download.cfm?DownloadFile=0F065144-1143-E4AF-1CB050AC458A8910 > ** Post the actual source. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > ** Fraid they are. Fraid they are not. As from the above ACTUAL figures, the main losses occur in the lower voltage distribution system, not the long HV lines from power station to load. Also, not all the loss is I^2R loss. There are still losses when no current is flowing. >>> In NSW, there is a massive % loss when excess power is sent down to the >>> Snowy overnight and comes back to Sydney at peak periods. A huge [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ** The overall loss Sydney to Snowy to Sydney is over 60%. Wrong again Phil. http://www.aie.org.au/syd/downloads/hunwick_paper.pdf Table two shows pumped storage has a cycle efficiency of 75%. Also, the Snowy is only part of the pumped storage used in NSW, and is shared with Victoria. There is significant other pumped storage in NSW in the Shoalhaven. > I am amazed it is not a lot more. That what happens when you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. Things appear amazing. The transmission network is a bit more complicated than a toaster. >>>> Also the article states:"A (now empty) CFL pack I have states the colour >>>> temperature as 3500K, and says that the lamps are 8W (equivalent to [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > That is what the ESP web page says. No, an 8W CF, even with a PF of 0.5, the I^2R loss in is a power station is approx 1/6 that of a 40W globe. Now lets see: "My thanks to Phil Allison for the photos used in Figures 8 and 11, and for various other bits of information used in this article." That explains it! <snipped usual asinine Philthy drivel> David "David the f.cking Know Nothing ARSEHOLE " >>>> ** No it is not !!!!!!! >>>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.transgrid.com.au/trim/trim213531.pdf on Page 2 ** You gotta be joking. > http://integral.com.au/download.cfm?DownloadFile=0F065144-1143-E4AF-1CB050AC458A8910 ** Never even mentions heat loss on a transmission line. >>>> In NSW, there is a massive % loss when excess power is sent down to >>>> the Snowy overnight and comes back to Sydney at peak periods. A huge [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Table two shows pumped storage has a cycle efficiency of 75%. ** How asinine - that figure does not include the transmission line loss. YOU are totally FULL of BULLSHIT !!! >> ** When the PF is 0.5 - the heat dissipation in the power station gene >> is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > No, an 8W CF, even with a PF of 0.5, the I^2R loss in is a power station > is approx 1/6 that of a 40W globe. ** But the loss and capacity reduction is still 4 times what it ought to be and that is the point made on the page. YOU f.cking a.s. Errr - what happened to all that stuff this INSANE c.nt posted about correcting the bad PF of a CFL with a capacitor at the power station ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? >>> In addition reactive plant is typically installed in switch yards close >>> to the demand, avoiding reactive losses on the transmission lines. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Off course it does. ** BOLLOCKS. There is no damn phase angle to correct. Cos the load of a CFL is NOT reactive - you f.cking BRAIN DEAD a.s !!!!!!!!! Adding parallel C does not help one tiny bit !!! My GOD - where do all these PIG IGNORANT, ASD f.cked c.nts COME FROM ? ........ Phil > "David the f.cking Know Nothing ARSEHOLE " > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > ** You gotta be joking. These are actual figures. You haven't (and obviously can't) provide any figures at all. >> http://integral.com.au/download.cfm?DownloadFile=0F065144-1143-E4AF-1CB050AC458A8910 > > ** Never even mentions heat loss on a transmission line. They specify total system loss. Heat loss is part of that. There are other losses in a transmission system as well. As this is total loss, the heat loss is obviously less that the total loss. >>>>> In NSW, there is a massive % loss when excess power is sent >>>>> down to the Snowy overnight and comes back to Sydney at peak [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ** How asinine - that figure does not include the transmission > line loss. All ready provided the HV transmission line loss figures. As the pumping is done at times of low demand, the I^2R loss would be low for the pumping. Still waiting for you to provide any published figures. >>> ** When the PF is 0.5 - the heat dissipation in the power >>> station gene is FOUR times what it is with a PF of 1. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > about correcting the bad PF of a CFL with a capacitor at the power > station ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Never said they have capacitors at the power station. Read what you failed to snip below. I said the reactive plant is typically installed close to the load. >>>> In addition reactive plant is typically installed in switch >>>> yards close to the demand, avoiding reactive losses on the [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Adding parallel C does not help one tiny bit !!! Yes it does. Passive power factor correction by adding C does reduce the harmonic distortion of the current waveform, and can increase the PF to over 0.9. David "David" >> ** BOLLOCKS. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Adding parallel C does not help one tiny bit !!! > Yes it does. Passive power factor correction by adding C does reduce the > harmonic distortion of the current waveform, and can increase the PF to > over 0.9. ** What absolute, ASININE BOLLOCKS !! If this cretin were not so stubbornly stupid - he might just be funny. ....... Phil >>> Adding parallel C does not help one tiny bit !!! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ....... Phil David, For the majority of _current model_ CL that would be deployed in consumer presmises Phil is correct in that passive PF correction is ineffective. Active PF correction is required, but since this costs almost as much the ballast components themselves it isn't included in mass market devices (yet). "Dave" "Phil Allison" >>>> Adding parallel C does not help one tiny bit !!! >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> If this cretin were not so stubbornly stupid - he might just be funny. > David, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ballast components themselves it isn't included in mass market devices > (yet). ** The poor PF of a CFL cannot be corrected with an external cap in parallel - no matter where it is. That is what I wrote. But, an individual CFL can be corrected by any of several means - like a series inductor, revised topology for the inverter or a full electronic PFC circuit. The " David " cretin has made an *utter fool* of himself, many times over on this NG. A while back, he tried to claim the tempco of resistance for copper wire followed an exponential equation based on the 0.4 % per degree figure. Classic. ...... Phil > David, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > almost as much the ballast components themselves it isn't included in > mass market devices (yet). What about all that stuff he wrote about CLs not being reactive? How can the CL have "poor PF" and yet not be reactive? Forgive me but I'm just another ASD c*nt. ;-) "Anthony Fremont Total Fuckwit " >> For the majority of _current model_ CL that would be deployed in >> consumer presmises Phil is correct in that passive PF correction is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the CL have "poor PF" and yet not be reactive? Forgive me but I'm just > another ASD c*nt. ;-) ** f.cking go & look up " active PFC " - you criminally insane pile of Yank excrement !! ...... Phil Philth Allison wrote: > "Anthony Fremont" > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > ** f.cking go & look up " active PFC " I did, and now I get it. Not that you were of any help since you couldn't be bothered to actually mention the word "harmonics", while you were busily pecking your ad-hominem trash. I'm not into PFC so it's never been a priority for me to learn the nuances of it, therefore I asked a question when I didn't understand something. It beats jumping out there and calling everyone a pig-ignorant, ASD c.nt IMO. But that's just me. Care to show me link to a data logging transmitter that puts out bursts less than 250uS yet? > - your criminally insane pile of Yank excrement !! Nice sig line philthy. "Anthony Fremont" >> ** f.cking go & look up " active PFC " > > I did, and now I get it. ** Like hell. > Not that you were of any help since you couldn't be bothered to actually > mention the word "harmonics", ** No need, whatever. ....... Phil > Philth Allison wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > when I didn't understand something. It beats jumping out there and calling > everyone a pig-ignorant, ASD c.nt IMO. But that's just me. its actually really, really easy to make a PFC converter. If you look at the datasheet of chips like the UC3854, you see they have a multiplier between the (output) voltage error amp and the current comparator. The multiplier multiplies the VEA output with the rectified line voltage. This forces the setpoint of the current comparator to have the same shape as the rectified AC line, with an amplitude proportional to the output of the VEA. OK, good stuff. If you make a Discontinuous Conduction Mode (DCM - every switching cycle the inductor current ramps down to zero, so the energy is all transferred to the load. another name for this is complete energy transfer) flyback or boost converter, things get real easy. If you write an equation for the current setpoint, it comes out as: Isetpoint(t) = m*n*sin(wt) where m varies in proportion to the load and n is a constant and seeing as its DCM, I_inductor(t) = Vin(t)*Ton(t)/L but Vin(t) = Vpeak*sin(wt) and the controller forces I_inductor(t) to equal the setpoint (when it does the switch turns off). put it all together, and: m*n*sin(wt) = Vpeak*sin(wt)*Ton(t)/L and voila, the sin(wt) terms call off, giving: Ton(t) = m*n*Vpeak/L the multiplier FORCES the sin(wt)* terms to cancel, always. so if you run a DCM boost or flyback converter with constant on time, and ensure it always sits at the boundary of DCM (as soon as the inductor current ramps to zero a new switching cycle starts, which is easy to do by looking at the voltage on a winding), then the input current automatically follows a sinusoidal* envelope. Look ma, no multiplier! Of course you need to filter the evil sawtooth waveforms if you ever plan on passing an EMC test....but you need to do that regardless of active PFC topology. * this assumes the input voltage is sinusoidal. the primary current waveform enevelope is the same shape as the input voltage. so if you bung it on the output of a dimmer, it forces the current to have a vandalised sinusoidal envelope. Cheers Terry > Care to show me link to a data logging transmitter that puts out bursts less > than 250uS yet? > >>- your criminally insane pile of Yank excrement !! > > Nice sig line philthy. "Terry Given" > its actually really, really easy to make a PFC converter. If you look at > the datasheet of chips like the UC3854, ** Nobody f.cking asked you - kiwi c.nt. NB: This is very serious - Terry. You are currently enjoying and have always have enjoyed the benefit of being effectively anonymous on this newsgroup & usenet in general. Anonymity gives an individual great scope for misbehaviour - knowing that none of the usual social repercussions can ever be visited upon them. You have taken great advantage of that fact, very many times, mostly in relation to myself. Being a NZ resident gives you the further huge advantage of immunity by distance, legal system and national boundary compared to Australia. But only the lowest of human scum would take that as an open invitation to consistently be an utter arsehole. Shame on you for choosing that option. Shame on your fellow, anonymous kiwis for taking the same option. The whole damn lot of you are an absolute pox on "aus.electronics". A pox on the face of the earth is closer to the truth. My " f.ck OFF - KIWI SCUM " messages were no joke. This NG will be destroyed if you do not. ....... Phil "Terry Given" > > its actually really, really easy to make a PFC converter. If you look at > > the datasheet of chips like the UC3854, > ** Nobody f.cking asked you - kiwi c.nt. > NB: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > This NG will be destroyed if you do not. Anyone care to pass the hat around so that Phil can afford his anti-psychotic meds for the next 2 weeks until his disability pension cheque arrives? You've really lost it Phil, haven't you? Perhaps the recent events on aus.hi-fi have resulted in you taking out your frustrations on this newsgroup. It's always the same sad message, isn't it? Everyone else on this planet is wrong except you. You're truly pathetic, and are desperately in need of medical assistance, but from past experience, you won't accept it because you're in a state of denial with respect to your medical condition and have been for at least the past 6 or 7 years. As I've said before, your performances here & on other newsgroups are those of an individual who's lost any semblance of self control, and exhibits all the signs of Paranoid Personality Disorder. Look it up in the medical text books Phil, and tell me that you're not suffering from it, or something very similar, vis. 'A pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others such that their motives are interpreted as malevolent.' Outward behavioural characteristics, of which you exhibit every one, include: - Suspects, without sufficient basis, that others are exploiting, harming, or deceiving him - Is preoccupied with unjustified doubts about the loyalty or trustworthiness of friends or associates - Is reluctant to confide in others because of unwarranted fear that the information will be used maliciously against him - Reads hidden demeaning or threatening meanings into benign remarks or events - Persistently bears grudges, i.e., is unforgiving of insults, injuries, or slights - Perceives attacks on his character or reputation that are not apparent to others and is quick to react angrily or to counterattack Taping telephone conversations is another symptom of your disease, and by your own admission was "made for my own protection, in case he (i.e. me) disputes the crazy stuff he said about himself." Face it Phil, you're one sick puppy, and the sooner you seek medical assistance, the sooner you'll begin to feel like your old self again (remember how that felt.....?). Seek help, soon. ruff > "Terry Given" > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > > ruff Ah, it appears that it is easy to confuse Toaster Boi. Chuck a couple of equations into your argument and suddenly the little bleeder has no reply. As Gomer Pyle would say "surprise, surprise, surprise....." After all you don't need much in the way of electronics theory or a bit of high school math to fix toasters and replace jug elements do you? If Philthy was even 1/10 as smart as he would make out he is he could be pulling over $100,000 + benefits doing a cruisy lab job just helping undergrads out. Oh, but I did forget there for a moment - Philthy didn't graduate from uni did he? Sigh....... >> Philth Allison wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] >> >> Nice sig line philthy. I thought that at 2:30AM NZ time, you'd be soundly asleep between your silk sheets, not trying to send everyone else to sleep with more engineer-speak. Bob "Bob Parker" Terry Given wrote: > I thought that at 2:30AM NZ time, you'd be soundly asleep between your > silk sheets, not trying to send everyone else to sleep with more > engineer-speak. ** The lambs must be teething. ..... Phil > "Bob Parker" > Terry Given wrote: > >>I thought that at 2:30AM NZ time, you'd be soundly asleep between your >>silk sheets, not trying to send everyone else to sleep with more >>engineer-speak. DST. and waiting for SPICE to finish a long simulation. > ** The lambs must be teething. > > ..... Phil LOL! Thats much, much better. Cheers Terry > Philth Allison wrote: > > - your criminally insane pile of Yank excrement !! > > Nice sig line philthy. Just filter him out as most of us do. I only see him when someone copies his drivel in a reply. >>David, >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the CL have "poor PF" and yet not be reactive? Forgive me but I'm just > another ASD c*nt. ;-) harmonics. and passive PF correction works just fine - they are called harmonic traps (or filters). of course you wont fit any such passive harmonic/VAR compensating stuff inside a CFL..... also, while var compensation is fairly common at the PCC of a large customer (eg steel mill), there is none for small customers (eg house). and there are a lot of houses. so the VARs whizz back and forth, at least as far as the nearest substation (which probably has var compensation), heating up the line. the losses here are a thorough inconvenience, but the real problem is the heat - lines are designed for a given amount of heat. If thats coming from VARs (to whit: reactive current and line resistance), then it cant be used for W. Cheers Terry >>> David, >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > harmonics. Oh, ok. I never really thought of that, but I never really think much about PF anyway. ;-) I guess I just always thought it was about inductive or capacitive reactance and that was it. I didn't really think of waveform distortion as anything more than line noise. > and passive PF correction works just fine - they are called harmonic > traps (or filters). of course you wont fit any such passive > harmonic/VAR compensating stuff inside a CFL..... Kinda tough fitting those parts in the lamp base. ;-) Couldn't they just build them into fixtures or outlets, or do they have to be customized for the CFL at hand? Aren't they just low pass filters? Or is that only part of the problem and that you need to still apply correction for reactance? > also, while var compensation is fairly common at the PCC of a large > customer (eg steel mill), there is none for small customers (eg [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > coming from VARs (to whit: reactive current and line resistance), then > it cant be used for W. Ok, got it. >>>>David, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > capacitive reactance and that was it. I didn't really think of waveform > distortion as anything more than line noise. some (naughty) manufacturers specify unity displacement factor for their rectifier-capacitor input stages. which is true. but conveniently ignores the masses of harmonics. >>and passive PF correction works just fine - they are called harmonic >>traps (or filters). of course you wont fit any such passive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > build them into fixtures or outlets, or do they have to be customized for > the CFL at hand? Aren't they just low pass filters? rather than LPFs they tend to be selective traps. you would need a very, very high order filter to attenuate 3rd harmonic by, say 20dB while leaving 1st alone..... and using 50/60Hz reactive components means they are LARGE. Or is that only part > of the problem and that you need to still apply correction for reactance? you can loosely categorise loads thusly: 1) resistive loads - unity power factor, no harmonics 2) reactive loads - non-unity power factor. if the loads arent too nonlinear (magnetics are, somewhat) then no harmonics. 3) non-linear loads. non-unity power factor, truckloads of harmonics. the most common example is a rectifier-capacitor input stage for a smps. This draws a LOT of harmonics (eg 60% 3rd isnt uncommon), but typically the fundamental is pretty much in-phase with the voltage (the measure of 1st harmonic phase shift is called displacement factor, DF = cos(Phi1)), so the 1st harmonic looks resistive (AKA isnt reactive) so if you snot the harmonics, the PF ends up pretty good. A simple way to improve a rectifier-cap filter is to use two caps and 3 diodes, so the caps charge in series and discharge in parallel. Still nasty, just less so. >>also, while var compensation is fairly common at the PCC of a large >>customer (eg steel mill), there is none for small customers (eg [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ok, got it. Cheers Terry "Terry Given" > the most common example is a rectifier-capacitor input stage for a smps. > This draws a LOT of harmonics (eg 60% 3rd isnt uncommon), but typically > the fundamental is pretty much in-phase with the voltage (the measure of > 1st harmonic phase shift is called displacement factor, DF = cos(Phi1)), > so the 1st harmonic looks resistive (AKA isnt reactive) ** There is no actual reactive component in the current draw. No current can POSSIBLY flow back from a CFL into the supply. Since EU regulations do NOT require a load of less than 75 watts to comply with PF or harmonic current regulations - the Chinese are not gonna make CFLs that do. ...... Phil > "Terry Given" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ** There is no actual reactive component in the current draw. that may not be true. If there is an EMC filter on the AC line side, it will contain both DM & CM inductance. Hence DF will not be exactly one. The pi filter on the DC side may also look a bit inductive, depending on actual component values (if the bulk of the capacitance is on the rectifier side, it wont) > No current can POSSIBLY flow back from a CFL into the supply. hmm, by definition AC always does that. > Since EU regulations do NOT require a load of less than 75 watts to comply > with PF or harmonic current regulations - the Chinese are not gonna make > CFLs that do. > > ...... Phil and thats really the crux of the issue. I suspect that once incandescents are gone, the power generation/distribution industry will shriek, and loudly. relevant legislation wont be too far behind. expect to see the same sorts of problems in apartment buildings that happened in office buildings when PCs with SMPS became ubiquitous - undersized neutral conductors failing (and even catching fire). Cheers Terry " Terry Given KIWI PSYCHOPATH " >> ** There is no actual reactive component in the current draw. >> >> No current can POSSIBLY flow back from a CFL into the supply. > > hmm, by definition AC always does that. ** What insane crap. >> Since EU regulations do NOT require a load of less than 75 watts to >> comply with PF or harmonic current regulations - the Chinese are not >> gonna make CFLs that do. > > and thats really the crux of the issue. ** But you still insist on seeing it from the WRONG point of view. Fuckwit !! ...... Phil > expect to see the same sorts of problems in apartment buildings that > happened in office buildings when PCs with SMPS became ubiquitous - > undersized neutral conductors failing (and even catching fire). It happened before SMPS were common. I helped install a mainframe computer in a large Canberra office building back in the mid 80s. When it was switched on the 3 phase star connected mains transformer started to smoke. After some investigation we found it was due to the excessive 3rd harmonics on the mains from the hundreds of fluros in the building (confirmed when the problem went away at 2am when the building lights went out). The sparkie's solution - pull of the neutral connection and let it float. there was 80 volts between the mains neutral and the transformer star point after that was done. The machine ran like that for the next 6 years without any problem. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > on the mains from the hundreds of fluros in the building (confirmed when > the problem went away at 2am when the building lights went out). was it the flouro ballasts saturating that caused the excessive 3rd? > The sparkie's solution - pull of the neutral connection and let it float. > there was 80 volts between the mains neutral and the transformer star point > after that was done. The machine ran like that for the next 6 years without > any problem. yikes! I can just see someone coming along, thinking "I can touch neutral, its connected to Earth" and getting an unpleasant, potentially fatal, surpirse. Great story! Cheers Terry >> >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > was it the flouro ballasts saturating that caused the excessive 3rd? I have no idea, sorry, it was the consultant sparky who suggested the cause backed up by the evidence that the problem went away when the lights went out. >> The sparkie's solution - pull of the neutral connection and let it float. >> there was 80 volts between the mains neutral and the transformer star [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > neutral, its connected to Earth" and getting an unpleasant, potentially > fatal, surpirse. We disconnected the transformer neutral wire from the back of the tagblock taped it back and sealed it. We also put a tag on the block explaining what we had done. The sparky told us of a similar case at Kodak in Melbourne where they actually welded the neutral connection on the main switchboard as anybody disconnecting it would probably be killed. >>>>expect to see the same sorts of problems in apartment buildings that >>>>happened in office buildings when PCs with SMPS became ubiquitous - [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > backed up by the evidence that the problem went away when the lights went > out. thats a pretty convincing argument.... >>>The sparkie's solution - pull of the neutral connection and let it float. >>>there was 80 volts between the mains neutral and the transformer star [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > actually welded the neutral connection on the main switchboard as anybody > disconnecting it would probably be killed. Yikes! Smart move on their part. Cheers Terry > > No current can POSSIBLY flow back from a CFL into the supply. > > hmm, by definition AC always does that. Only AC ? Doesn't ALL current flow in a loop? :-) MrT. >>> No current can POSSIBLY flow back from a CFL into the supply. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > MrT. indeed it does; I assumed Phil meant down one wire. And you have hit upon the secret to PCB layout: "Current Flows In Loops - Minimise Them" Cheers Terry >>>David, >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > (or filters). of course you wont fit any such passive harmonic/VAR > compensating stuff inside a CFL..... This is the crux of what I referring to. For mass market CFL products the physical size of the components needed to make an effective passive VAR filter are too big and too expensive (relative to size and cost of CFL products). Active PFC is readily available for switch-mode supplies and small integrated PFC & regulator devices are in development (maybe even available now) for CFL and standard FL ballasts. "Dave" ?????????? The IDIOT > Active PFC is readily available for switch-mode supplies and small > integrated PFC & regulator devices are in development (maybe even > available now) for CFL and standard FL ballasts. ** PFC ICs exist for CFL ballasts. But as no regulation makes the Chinese use them, they wont. ....... Phil >>>>David, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>> >>>What about all that stuff he wrote about CLs not being reactive? How can >>>the CL have "poor PF" and yet not be reactive? Forgive me but I'm just >>>another ASD c*nt. ;-) >> >>harmonics. >> >>and passive PF correction works just fine - they are called harmonic traps >>(or filters). of course you wont fit any such passive harmonic/VAR >>compensating stuff inside a CFL..... > > This is the crux of what I referring to. For mass market CFL products the > physical size of the components needed to make an effective passive VAR > filter are too big and too expensive (relative to size and cost of CFL [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ....... Phil the chinese will make whatever is asked of them. We the consumer could immediately force the use of PFC CFLs, by refusing to buy non-PFC CFLs (and telling the supplier why we wont buy them). But of course we wont....consumers will buy whichever is cheapest. I'm doing a PFC design for an electronic lamp now (not CFL). not for unity power factor (although its required), but for maximum efficiency ;) Cheers Terry " Terry Given KIWI PSYCHOPATH " >> ** PFC ICs exist for CFL ballasts. >> >> But as no regulation makes the Chinese use them, they wont. > > the chinese will make whatever is asked of them. ** Yawn - another total straw man. > We the consumer could immediately force the use of PFC CFLs, ** What insane drivel. Terry Given = ASD f.cked KIWI PSYCHOPATH ....... Phil > " Terry Given KIWI PSYCHOPATH " > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > ....... Phil Phil, dont be a buffoon; try and suck back the bile. And dont bother trying to win a SMPS pissing contest with me, you cant. If you want to do that, stick to audio, that way you probably can :) Cheers Terry " Terry Given KIWI PSYCHOPATH " >>>> ** PFC ICs exist for CFL ballasts. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Phil, dont be a buffoon; ** LOL - look at the trolling, narcissistic * a.s * who is taking. You are no friend of mine or anyone alive - you are nothing but a puffed up, stinking pin ball machine mechanic. f.ck the hell off and take the rest of those kiwi scum with you. ....... Phil > " Terry Given KIWI PSYCHOPATH " > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > You are no friend of mine or anyone alive I wouldnt want to be your friend Phil, you obviously have some behavioural issues. And besides, that would put me in a group of one, so the conversation would be limited. > - you are nothing but a puffed up, stinking pin ball machine mechanic. who has, unlike you, successfully completed an honours degree in engineering. Admittedly I didnt know any nobel laureates, but I passed all my exams. If you dont believe me, try googling "terry given massey university" - they *still* use portions of a letter I wrote to my HOD in 1994 in their advertising. And this particular pinball mechanic is getting flown business & first class to USA on Saturday, to spend the week helping a client achieve FCC certification for a PFC electronic lamp. I suspect that pays just a little bit better than publishing a generic circuit in SC; I'll get paid more per day than you earn in a week, and when I get home I shall sleep soundly between silken sheets, with a woman whose beauty would make you weep. > f.ck the hell off and take the rest of those kiwi scum with you. > > ....... Phil Have you considered suicide as a career option Phil? the pay isnt much worse than repairing toasters, and the SNR of several newsgroups would skyrocket. As would the national average IQ in Australia. Oh wait, yes you have, you have simply chosen the slow "think poisonous thoughts all the time" approach, destroying yourself mentally and spiritually, eventually to be followed by a cancerous demise ;) that is if apoplexy doesnt get you first. Cheers Terry "Terry Given" ** This is very serious - Terry. You are currently enjoying and have always have enjoyed the benefit of being effectively anonymous on this newsgroup & usenet in general. Anonymity gives an individual great scope for misbehaviour - knowing that none of the usual social repercussions can ever be visited upon them. You have taken great advantage of that fact, very many times, mostly in relation to myself. Being a NZ resident gives you the further huge advantage of immunity by distance, legal system and national boundary compared to Australia. But only the lowest of human scum would take that as an open invitation to consistently be an utter arsehole. Shame on you for choosing that option. Shame on your fellow, anonymous kiwis for taking the same option. The whole damn lot of you are an absolute pox on "aus.electronics". A pox on the face of the earth is closer to the truth. My " f.ck OFF - KIWI SCUM " messages were no joke. This NG will be destroyed if you do not. ....... Phil > "Terry Given" > > ** This is very serious - Terry. Que?! > You are currently enjoying and have always have enjoyed the benefit of being > effectively anonymous on this newsgroup & usenet in general. Anonymity > gives an individual great scope for misbehaviour - knowing that none of > the usual social repercussions can ever be visited upon them. nonsense, its my real name - thats hardly anonymous, now is it. anyone who isnt a complete moron could track me down in a matter of minutes. What social repercussions did you have in mind, Phil? > You have taken great advantage of that fact, very many times, mostly in > relation to myself. you are talking nonsense Phil. I dont pick fights, you do. > Being a NZ resident gives you the further huge advantage of immunity by > distance, legal system and national boundary compared to Australia. But > only the lowest of human scum would take that as an open invitation to > consistently be an utter arsehole. coming from you, thats hilarious. I make posts about electronics. you respond with tripe like: "Terry Given = ASD f.cked KIWI PSYCHOPATH" spot the arsehole here. I dont agree with the Phil Baiters here, who respond to on-topic posts with attacks on you - not because I think you dont deserve it (with your track record, you have no business complaining about anyone elses ad-hominem attacks), but because it pretty much ensures more tripe from you, lowering the SNR. Which is irritating, and a shame - when you can restrict yourself to technical posts, they are often quite good. Until, of course, someone says something you disagree with, at which point all the hatred which festers inside you comes spilling out. Especially when you are wrong. > Shame on you for choosing that option. what, I should just let you hurl voluminous torrents of peurile, infantile abuse my way, and say nothing? I usually ignore your diatribes, but thats my choice, not yours. its a pretty bipolar world you live in Phil. Pun thoroughly intentional. > Shame on your fellow, anonymous kiwis for taking the same option. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ....... Phil how do you propose to do that Phil? I suppose you could continuously post psychotic rants, thereby causing the SNR to asymptotically approach zero. oh, wait, you do. I wait with baited breath for your next repetitious, childish post. I especially favour the verbatim re-posts, they so well demonstrate your stunning lack of creative talent. Try learning to curse using words with more than four letters. I realise that may be difficult for you, but if you include your thumb you can probably count all the way up to 5; add the other hand (I presume you are a trenchcoat-wearing left-handed typist with a sticky keyboard) and you can make it all the way to ten. Not enough letters to spell "polysyllabic", but it ought to at least get you past "f.ck" Burst a vein yet? Cheers Terry "Terry Given" ** This is very serious - Terry. You are currently enjoying and have always have enjoyed the benefit of being effectively anonymous on this newsgroup & usenet in general. Anonymity gives an individual great scope for misbehaviour - knowing that none of the usual social repercussions can ever be visited upon them. You have taken great advantage of that fact, very many times, mostly in relation to myself. Being a NZ resident gives you the further huge advantage of immunity by distance, legal system and national boundary compared to Australia. But only the lowest of human scum would take that as an open invitation to consistently be an utter arsehole. Shame on you for choosing that option. Shame on your fellow, anonymous kiwis for taking the same option. The whole damn lot of you are an absolute pox on "aus.electronics". A pox on the face of the earth is closer to the truth. My " f.ck OFF - KIWI SCUM " messages were no joke. This NG will be destroyed if you do not. I mean it. Go see what " aus.hi-fi " looks like now. A wasteland. ] ....... Phil As I expected, a new-content-free post. Phil, if you dont want any given thread to degenerate into flames, then how about *you* stop the incendiary posts. every time someone posts something that you dont agree with, you immediately gob off, in a vile yet highly immature manner. yet you have the audacity to ask me not to respond to you?! go look up "solipsism". I just looked at aus.hi-fi, and it is indeed a wreck. to which you appear to have contributed a sizeable chunk of the inane posts. Which merely confirms my central thesis, that *you* are your own worst enemy. Cheers Terry "Terry Given" ** This is very serious - Terry. You are currently enjoying and have always have enjoyed the benefit of being effectively anonymous on this newsgroup & usenet in general. Anonymity gives an individual great scope for misbehaviour - knowing that none of the usual social repercussions can ever be visited upon them. You have taken great advantage of that fact, very many times, mostly in relation to myself. Being a NZ resident gives you the further huge advantage of immunity by distance, legal system and national boundary compared to Australia. But only the lowest of human scum would take that as an open invitation to consistently be an utter arsehole. Shame on you for choosing that option. Shame on your fellow, anonymous kiwis for taking the same option. The whole damn lot of you are an absolute pox on "aus.electronics". A pox on the face of the earth is closer to the truth. My " f.ck OFF - KIWI SCUM " messages were no joke. This NG will be destroyed if you do not. I mean it. Go see what " aus.hi-fi " looks like now. A total wasteland. Grow up, get real Or f.ck the HELL OFF !!! ....... Phil > As I expected, a new-content-free post. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I just looked at aus.hi-fi, and it is indeed a wreck. to which you > appear to have contributed a sizeable chunk of the inane posts. We are all still wondering who Leo Simpson was talking about when he said in his Sept 03 editorial in Silicon Chip: "The situation is made worse when others come up on the newsgroup strongly disagreeing with previous information. And the disagreements are not just difference of opinion - often they degenerate into vitriolic abuse and sometimes even libel. I am thinking particularly of here of two local newsgroups: aus.electronics and aus.hi-fi. A few individuals have become so disagreeable and abusive that they have made these sites quite unpleasant. >From our point of view, chaotic newsgroups are not at all helpful to the promogulation of electronics information. It discourages newcomers (and old timers, for that matter) and leaves others seeming with resentment. In fact, some individuals on these newsgroups are so abusive that you wonder why anyone else would ever offer useful information because of the risk of being abused. Which is a great shame because these abusive individuals often give advice which is technically correct but they destroy their goodwill and standing by being so unpleasant to anyone with the temerity to disagree. So please, keep it civilised people. Remember that newsgroups are there to help others in the very worthwhile pursuit of knowledge and fun in the field of electronics. If you can help someone asking a question, please do so. And if someone else offers contrary advice, correct it by referring them to some recognised sources. Ultimately, that approach will gain you far more respect and everybody who uses the site will find it much more helpful." Quite baffling really :-> Dave. >> As I expected, a new-content-free post. >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Dave. Thanks for the OCR, Dave. I think it was probably "seething" not "seeming" with resentment though.... :-) Bob > >> As I expected, a new-content-free post. > >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > Thanks for the OCR, Dave. I think it was probably "seething" not > "seeming" with resentment though.... :-) What Leo describes there is the real tragedy of aus.electronics - over the years I've seen new posters ask a question, get hit with a torrent of stunningly vicious, irrational abuse and promptly vanish, never to post again. There are also a number of lurkers who I suspect could contribute a lot, but are reluctant to post freely partly because they don't want to have to deal with the nastiness. Sadly I think this situation is exactly what the subject of Leo's article wants. "Poxy" > What Leo describes there is the real tragedy of aus.electronics ** Leo has not the faintest, damn idea what he is talking about. > - over the > years I've seen new posters ask a question, get hit with a torrent of > stunningly vicious, irrational abuse and promptly vanish, never to post > again. ** The truth is, most question posters will never return, no matter what replies they get. Because - t hey only ever had one question and posted that out of mere curiosity. Another truth is, the vast majority of the fights do not fit your hypothetical scenario at all - they are between regular posters of replies OR some poster who decides to " correct " a reply that annoys them and the poster of that reply. > There are also a number of lurkers who I suspect could contribute a > lot, but are reluctant to post freely partly because they don't want to > have > to deal with the nastiness. ** What you suspect is purest fantasy. > Sadly I think this situation is exactly what the > subject of Leo's article wants. ** Leo has not the faintest, damn idea what he is talking about. The " situation" as you call it virtually the same across the majority of usenet groups - have a look at aus.tv, aus.legal, alt.guitar.amps or even sci.electronics design. The basic problem is the flawed structure of usenet itself. Put simply, an uncontrolled public forum that anyone can use anonymously is a recipe for chaos. ...... Phil > "Poxy" > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > ...... Phil I am traveling to your area in the future philthy , I look forward to discussing things in person .Perhaps others might considering chatting to your in person and in the mean time putting you on blocked in their browsers / > > "Poxy" > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > I am traveling to your area in the future philthy , I look forward to > discussing things in person. Will tickets be available via Ticketek? ;-) Dave. >>> "Poxy" >>>> What Leo describes there is the real tragedy of aus.electronics [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Dave. I doubt he will answer I hear the last time he had a visitor wanting to discuss matters there was no answer . David L. Jones wrote: Phil Allison wrote: >>> "Poxy" > >>>> What Leo describes there is the real tragedy of aus.electronics > >>> ** Leo has not the faintest, damn idea what he is talking about. > >>>> - over the years I've seen new posters ask a question, get hit with a torrent > >>>> of stunningly vicious, irrational abuse and promptly vanish, never to post > >>>> again. > >>> ** The truth is, most question posters will never return, no matter what > >>> replies they get. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >>> hypothetical scenario at all - they are between regular posters of replies > >>> OR some poster who decides to " correct " a reply that annoys them and the > >>> poster of that reply. > >>>> There are also a number of lurkers who I suspect could contribute a > >>>> lot, but are reluctant to post freely partly because they don't want to > >>>> have to deal with the nastiness. > >>> ** What you suspect is purest fantasy. > >>>> Sadly I think this situation is exactly what the subject of Leo's article wants. > >>> ** Leo has not the faintest, damn idea what he is talking about. > >>> The " situation" as you call it virtually the same across the majority of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >>> Put simply, an uncontrolled public forum that anyone can use anonymously is > >>> a recipe for chaos. > >> I am traveling to your area in the future philthy , I look forward to > >> discussing things in person. > > Will tickets be available via Ticketek? ;-) > I doubt he will answer > I hear the last time he had a visitor wanting to discuss matters there > was no answer . How can there be? Phil only exists in cyberspace; i.e. the Phil we all know & love to hate. The REAL Phil is someone who in all probability, would be totally unrecognisable if judged by his Usenet posts. I have spoken to him on the 'phone a couple of times & he was seemingly placid, interesting & a good conversationalist. However, because of his habit of taping telephone conversations, there won't be a third time. Pity. ruff > David L. Jones wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > ruff I to have spoken to him on the phone when he first started stalking me, just after I first stumbled into the aus.hi-fi group. Yes he was cordial and quite friendly while at the same time wanting to probe for personal information about me. I would imagine a very similar thing to what has happened to you as well Ruff. I was fully aware of this at the time and was very cautious about what I divulged as it would certainly come back and bite me at some stage ;-) At that early stage I was still unsure about the group's dynamics and had no idea Philthy was a raving loony in need of professional treatment. If you recall Ruff we even had discussions at the time about everyone's right to free speech. I was mistaken in my naive idealism that the concept would actually work :-( Philthy here has long since forfeited this right as the spreading of lies, innuendo and generally being outright disgustingly vile cannot be deemed by anybody as a freedom. I also never made allowances for those other rude and discourteous people that have no social conscience or a concept of "the greater good". It is these same type of people that smoke in restaurants or talk on mobile phones in cinemas as their personal rights apparently exceed those of everyone else's. So can someone please tell me who will allow me my right to be on Usenet and discuss On Top matter with like minded people without being harassed or vilified? BTW for the record I did drop around to see Philthy once and alas he was not home at the time and although I left a pleasant message on his answering machine he never rang me back so we could catch up :-( Maybe next time :-) Cheers TT > > David L. Jones wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > dynamics and had no idea Philthy was a raving loony in need > of professional treatment. I've also had the "pleasure" of a call from Phil: http://groups.google.com.au/group/aus.electronics/tree/browse_frm/thread/b602002 3a669091a/00ab3e88fd5088b9?rnum=31&hl=en That was before he figured out what computers were. > If you recall Ruff we even had discussions at the time about > everyone's right to free speech. I was mistaken in my naive [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > be on Usenet and discuss On Top matter with like minded > people without being harassed or vilified? Perhaps we should make April a "Phil Free" month on Aus.Electronics? Dave. "David L. Jones" > I've also had the "pleasure" of a call from Phil: ( snip link to Google archive ) ** Back somewhere in 1996/7/8 - David L. Jones used the business name: " Tronnort Technologies " and worked from home in Lethbridge Park, on the outskirts of Sydney. He contributed several construction articles to " Electronics Australia " ( EA) magazine at around that time. By 1998, EA magazine had published no less than 8 similar articles from myself - plus numerous CDI items, several letters to the editor and a whole Forum column devoted to a topic I raised. Now, the phone number for " Tronnort Technologies" was published in the magazine for people to use & for David's benefit. It was a local Sydney phone number. On one occasion, the editor of EA magazine ( Jim Rowe ) suggested I give David a call re some issues that were current at that time affecting the magazine and its readers. So I did. As I recall, David feigned interest - but as he did not perceive the issues as affecting him personally he was unable to see their wider significance. Cos he simply lacked the imagination. A serious metal disability he has demonstrated publicly countless times on this NG ever since. > That was before he figured out what computers were. ** How utterly ridiculous !!!! Bought my first personal computer in 1982, my first IBM clone in 1987 and three more since then. What an absolute a.s is this David L. Jones cretin. ...... Phil > On one occasion, the editor of EA magazine ( Jim Rowe ) suggested I give > David a call re some issues that were current at that time affecting the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as affecting him personally he was unable to see their wider significance. > Cos he simply lacked the imagination. LMAO! There were no "issues", you just crapped on and on about all your usual pet subjects. You sounded like a lonely old man who just needed someone to talk to, so I obliged for 2 hours or so. Never again, I almost fell off my chair with boredom. Dave. "David L. Jones" >"Phil Allison" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > LMAO! > There were no "issues", ** Funny how you mention so many of them in the post archived on Google. What a despicable bloody LIAR you are - Jones. ...... Phil > "David L. Jones" > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > ...... Phil SO you were considerably behind the times , the first IBM clones hit the AU market in 1981 most of us had personal machines in the mid 1970's even if we had to build them . > > "David L. Jones" > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > most of us had personal machines in the mid 1970's even if we had to > build them . I heard from someone who knows Phil that as far as they knew he got his first computer in the late 90's for printing invoices for his toaster business on an old dot matrix printer, and for running the occasional calculating app. The term luddite was mentioned :-> Don't know what he must have done with those other computers then... Dave. "David L. Jones" > I heard from someone who knows Phil... ** No you did not - you stinking LIAR. Just what a truly EVIL little sh.t you are is being fully revealed. ...... Phil > "David L. Jones" > > > I heard from someone who knows Phil... > > ** No you did not - you stinking LIAR. Sorry to tell you Phil, yes I did. If thinking I'm lying makes you sleep better at night then by all means believe that. Dave. "David L. Jones" "Phil Allison" >> > I heard from someone who knows Phil... >> >> ** No you did not - you stinking LIAR. > > Sorry to tell you Phil, yes I did. ** That is a damn lie - David. Be very careful who you have dealings with - might well get YOU in a lot of trouble. ....... Phil >>> "David L. Jones" >>>> I've also had the "pleasure" of a call from Phil: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Dave. Ah yes the ole' 086 > "Poxy" > > > What Leo describes there is the real tragedy of aus.electronics > > ** Leo has not the faintest, damn idea what he is talking about. He must have fluked it then, because he's almost spot-on in this case. Dave. "David L. Jones" >> > What Leo describes there is the real tragedy of aus.electronics >> >> ** Leo has not the faintest, damn idea what he is talking about. > > He must have fluked it then, because he's almost spot-on in this case. ** He merely makes the SAME asinine misjudgement that YOU make. But with far more excuse. ...... Phil > "David L. Jones" > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But with far more excuse. You must be pretty chuffed being *the* discussion topic of an SC editorial Phil ;-) Dave. |
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