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Power generation system. Part 2

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Trevor Wilson - 27 Jul 2005 07:24 GMT
After some investigation, I've decided to CONSIDER a completely different
approach to a petrol, or diesel generator. I can buy a 3kVA inverter for
about $3k and some Solar cells (10 X 115Watt panels) for another $8k. The
gummint gives me back $4k (yay!). I have plenty of easily accessible (<2
Metres from ground level), flat, unshaded roof space for the panels. I can
buy a second hand, refurbished, 24V 1kA/Hr battery for another $2k.Not only
should I be able to generate all the power I require, but, for a few extra
Bucks, I can feed the surplus back into the mains and make a little profit
(double YAY!). No neighbour problems and get to have a warm, fuzzy, green
feeling. A win all 'round.

Any thoughts and suggestions will be appreciated.

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Alan Peake - 27 Jul 2005 08:54 GMT
> should I be able to generate all the power I require, but, for a few extra
> Bucks, I can feed the surplus back into the mains and make a little profit

Only if your inverter is the appropriate type. Not sure if the price you
mention for 3kVA is for a stand-alone or mains-connectable.
The batteries sound cheap. Mine are 700AH, 24V and cost $4000 new. The
rebate also has conditions - e.g. the system must use NEW components (I
think) and be installed by an accredited installer etc.
Alan
Trevor Wilson - 27 Jul 2005 10:45 GMT
>> should I be able to generate all the power I require, but, for a few
>> extra Bucks, I can feed the surplus back into the mains and make a little
>> profit
>
> Only if your inverter is the appropriate type. Not sure if the price you
> mention for 3kVA is for a stand-alone or mains-connectable.

**$4.5k for the mains-connectable type.

> The batteries sound cheap. Mine are 700AH, 24V and cost $4000 new.

**Batteries are second hand.

The
> rebate also has conditions - e.g. the system must use NEW components (I
> think) and be installed by an accredited installer etc.

**I figure on leaving the batteries out of the system, then installing them
later, just unsing mains interactive inverter. The acredited installer part
should not be a problem (I hope).

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

hadda hadda - 27 Jul 2005 09:41 GMT
> After some investigation, I've decided to CONSIDER a completely different
> approach to a petrol, or diesel generator.
There is no replacement for a generator. Every decent set-up still needs
one...

>I can buy a 3kVA inverter for  about $3k and
Pure sine wave inverter/charger approved  for grid interactive connection
for $3K? Sounds too good....

>some Solar cells (10 X 115Watt panels) for another $8k.
Fair price...but for the system to operate without recharge from mains or
diesel generator, you would need a lots of modules. Do not forget, 115 watts
is peak power. You can count on 1/2 average per day. 5 modules  (24V) would
average 600W. You would need much much more than that.

>The gummint gives me back $4k (yay!).
It is if you meet conditions. There are plenty....

>I have plenty of easily accessible (<2
> Metres from ground level), flat, unshaded roof space for the panels. I can
> buy a second hand, refurbished, 24V 1kA/Hr battery for another $2k.

The most important part of the system is, guess what, the battery bank!
While everything else can be second hand and still work, there is no such a
thing as "refurbished second hand" stationary battery that still have enough
capacity for the system.
>Not only should I be able to generate all the power I require, but, for a
few extra
> Bucks, I can feed the surplus back into the mains and make a little profit
> (double YAY!).
The proper term would be double Whammy. Kilowatt produced by the system
would cost at least 3 times more than from the mains. If approved, power
authority will pay you fraction for what they charge.......

No neighbour problems and get to have a warm, fuzzy, green
> feeling. A win all 'round.

The hybrid power generation is hijacked by the global oil corporations.
Basically, there are no real investments or R&D.
They are waiting for oil to run out or when pollution is prohibitive to use
oil.
Therefore, cost of the components is just too high. We can only dream to see
solar panels on every roof in Australia.
There are thousands of panels along German highways, but not many here....

> Any thoughts and suggestions will be appreciated.

Do the maths better....

> Trevor Wilson
> www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson - 27 Jul 2005 10:48 GMT
>> After some investigation, I've decided to CONSIDER a completely different
>> approach to a petrol, or diesel generator.
> There is no replacement for a generator. Every decent set-up still needs
> one...

**Bugger.

> >I can buy a 3kVA inverter for  about $3k and
> Pure sine wave inverter/charger approved  for grid interactive connection
> for $3K? Sounds too good....

**Yeah, sorry 'bout that. $4.5k for mains interactive.

>>some Solar cells (10 X 115Watt panels) for another $8k.
> Fair price...but for the system to operate without recharge from mains or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> would
> average 600W. You would need much much more than that.

**I plan on using 10 modules. Maybe adding a wind generator (200W), if I can
slide it past the council and neighbour objections.

>>The gummint gives me back $4k (yay!).
> It is if you meet conditions. There are plenty....

**So I've found.

>>I have plenty of easily accessible (<2
>> Metres from ground level), flat, unshaded roof space for the panels. I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> enough
> capacity for the system.

**My battery guy has a fair bit of experience in this area.

>>Not only should I be able to generate all the power I require, but, for a
> few extra
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> would cost at least 3 times more than from the mains. If approved, power
> authority will pay you fraction for what they charge.......

**Typical.

> No neighbour problems and get to have a warm, fuzzy, green
>> feeling. A win all 'round.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Do the maths better....

**I'm pretty certain I already have.

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Mark Harriss - 27 Jul 2005 11:31 GMT
Silicon manufacture for solar cells requires more
energy than the cells can make in thirty years, that
doesn't count the energy to process the silicon into
solar cells or the losses to store the energy made
by them.

If you look closely at the manufacturer's specs
you'll see the power drops off to about 80% after
ten years, due to micro fractures in the silicon
material causing performance degradation and a life
of about 20 years.

You'll most likely be doing the environment a favour
by buying an alternator instead and just using it
when neccessary. With proper maintenance and storage
it probably will last longer than the cells anyway
and definitely longer than the batteries you'll need.

The added advantage would be that it's compact,
cheaper, higher in output and needs less space than
a solar installation would.

Regards
Mark Harriss
Trevor Wilson - 27 Jul 2005 20:44 GMT
> Silicon manufacture for solar cells requires more
> energy than the cells can make in thirty years, that
> doesn't count the energy to process the silicon into
> solar cells or the losses to store the energy made
> by them.

**Sprouting an old myth does not make it true. I suggest you do some actual
research before you make a comment. FYI: The actual figures for payback
(energy required for manufacture) is more like 4-5 years.

> If you look closely at the manufacturer's specs
> you'll see the power drops off to about 80% after
> ten years, due to micro fractures in the silicon
> material causing performance degradation and a life
> of about 20 years.

**Depends on the cells.

> You'll most likely be doing the environment a favour
> by buying an alternator instead and just using it
> when neccessary. With proper maintenance and storage
> it probably will last longer than the cells anyway
> and definitely longer than the batteries you'll need.

**And it will create noise and pollution in the process. Solar cells are
silent and do not produce pollution.

> The added advantage would be that it's compact,
> cheaper, higher in output and needs less space than
> a solar installation would.

**And far less convenient, noisy, polluting, requiring maintenance, fuel,
etc. All in all, a complete PITA. It would also defeat the secondary purpose
of the whole system. It would, however, satisfy the primary purpose.

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Mark Harriss - 28 Jul 2005 01:31 GMT
> **Sprouting an old myth does not make it true. I suggest you do some actual
> research before you make a comment. FYI: The actual figures for payback
> (energy required for manufacture) is more like 4-5 years.

Here are the figures I'd researched a month or so ago for another
discussion. Solar cell makers buy surplus semiconductor grade
silicon for manufacture of their cells, so they should count the
energy cost to refine silicon to this stage. There are processes
to make "Solar grade" silicon out there but none are past the lab
stage of testing: these take 1/3 of the energy to make the silicon.
At any rate here is the figures I've come up with.

The calcs assume:

1. You are living on the sunniest place on the planet with 3000Hrs
of sun per year, somewhere on the equator on a cloud free plateau,
Sydney/Melb figures will be greatly reduced as you are closer to
the south pole at sea level in air pollution.

2. The solar flux is a constant unvarying 1.4Kw per square metre
from the sunup to sundown.

3. There is no age related loss of power at all(more like average 10%
and peaking at 20%).

4. You have invented some new way to slice silicon that has no losses.
The figure is closer to 50% at the thickness I have quoted.

5. The only energy costs are that to make the silicon, nothing else.
Please not that this does not count the lack of efficiency of energy
storage in batteries, the cost of making the batteries, the cost of
making the inverter, the cost of converting the silicon into a cell
the cost of refining the metals and glass used in the solar system or
the cost of shipping and installation.

6.It also does not count the multiple sets of batteries over the life
of the system.

7. It does not count the CO2 made during the chemical combustion part
of refining the silicon with carbon from quartz.

Here's what I'd researched earlier, Trevor on the 19/05/05:

"I've read it's a six step refining process that requires 2130 KW/h per
kilo of silicon. The density is 2330 kg/cubic metre, so assume you can
slice the silicon to 0.5mm thickness and have no sawing / polishing
waste and no energy expended to saw / dope / connect the cells,you'd get
2000 square metres of silicon for just under 5 GW/hours of energy. Solar
radiation is ideally 1.395 KW/metre square by 2000 square metres cell
area @ 3000 hours per year of sun under ideal conditions at the best
spot on the planet.

This gives 8.370 GW/hrs of energy per year by 15% cell efficiency to
give 1.255 GW/hrs per year of electricity.

so 5 GW/hrs divided by 1.255 GW/hrs per year gives 3.953 years to
cover the energy costs of making the silicon?."

payback = Four years???

So in a nutshell you get 3.953 years energy payback time assuming no
losses in the best part of the planet, assuming no energy losses, that
your silicon is at least 15% efficient?? and assuming no energy went
into making the solar cell from the raw silicon.

I would put it to you Trevor, that making the raw silicon into a panel
will double that figure, shifting the panel from the world's sunniest
site on a cloud free high altitude plateau on the equator to a region
far from the equator at sea level, like Sydney, would double that figure
again as you'd no longer have the CONSTANT 1.4KW per sq metre solar flux
I used in my calcs.

    Finally a Telstra tech once told me that as a rule of thumb you
get half the energy out of a battery as you put into it, so your figure
would double again, so 4 years x 2 x 2 x 2 = 32 years assuming your
batteries never die, your inverter is 100% efficient and you solar cells
never age. If you could use/sell your solar power at the 24 Volts it
makes without needing to store or convert it you would still have a
payback of about 16 years.

>>If you look closely at the manufacturer's specs
>>you'll see the power drops off to about 80% after
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> **Depends on the cells.

The only commonly available cell on the market with any real
usable performance WILL have this problem....regardless of
what marketing tells you Trevor. There are experimental cells
of different design but they are not available retail yet.

> **And it will create noise and pollution in the process. Solar cells are
> silent and do not produce pollution.

It sounds like you've been listening to your solar cell
retailer Trevor, over it's lifetime, an alternator is
environmentally less polluting to manufacture than a solar
installation but would pollute more if run constantly all
day instead of when needed, which I thought your use would
be?.

Regards
Mark Harriss
Trevor Wilson - 28 Jul 2005 05:10 GMT
>> **Sprouting an old myth does not make it true. I suggest you do some
>> actual research before you make a comment. FYI: The actual figures for
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> stage of testing: these take 1/3 of the energy to make the silicon.
> At any rate here is the figures I've come up with.

**All very interesting and unreasonably confusing. I did a quick search and
came up with more than 20 references to ENERGY payback for Silicon Solar
Cells. The WORST figure I came up with was 5 years, whilst the best was 1.25
years. Naturally, the financial payback time is in the order of 20-30 years,
at present energy prices.

To use some of your own data, it would take 11 years to refine one kg of
silicon, using a single 115 Watt panel.

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Mark Harriss - 28 Jul 2005 08:44 GMT
> **All very interesting and unreasonably confusing. I did a quick search and
> came up with more than 20 references to ENERGY payback for Silicon Solar
> Cells. The WORST figure I came up with was 5 years, whilst the best was 1.25
> years. Naturally, the financial payback time is in the order of 20-30 years,
> at present energy prices.

1. It's simple math Trevor: find out how much solar energy is typical
for your location in watts per metre square, multiply that by the
efficiency for your solar cells and you get a figure for power
production for the area of solar cells you have in Watts. Assume for
simplicity that you get that wattage as long as the sun is above the
horizon so you multiply the wattage by the time to get Watt-Hours of
energy you make for a DAY.

2. Work out how many Kgs of silicon you need per square metre of silicon
and multiply that by 2130 KiloWatt/Hours per kilo of silicon.

3. So you have how much energy your cells make and how many watt hours
of power it took to make the silicon used in them. Divide the second by
the first to get how many DAYS it's going to take for the energy made by
your cells to equal the energy taken to make the silicon in them.

> To use some of your own data, it would take 11 years to refine one kg
> of silicon, using a single 115 Watt panel.

One Kilo of silicon can make a lot more than a single 115 Watt panel.
Depends on how thin you slice it.

Regards
Mark  Harriss
Terry Given - 28 Jul 2005 09:03 GMT
>> **All very interesting and unreasonably confusing. I did a quick
>> search and came up with more than 20 references to ENERGY payback for
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 2. Work out how many Kgs of silicon you need per square metre of silicon
> and multiply that by 2130 KiloWatt/Hours per kilo of silicon.

at least get the units right - kW*hrs not kW/hrs. the difference is
proportional to hours^2.....

> 3. So you have how much energy your cells make and how many watt hours
> of power it took to make the silicon used in them. Divide the second by
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Regards
> Mark  Harriss
Terry Given - 28 Jul 2005 09:14 GMT
>> **All very interesting and unreasonably confusing. I did a quick
>> search and came up with more than 20 references to ENERGY payback for
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 2. Work out how many Kgs of silicon you need per square metre of silicon
> and multiply that by 2130 KiloWatt/Hours per kilo of silicon.

2130kW-hrs.

1 kWhr = 1kW * 3.6ks = 3.6MJ

2130kW-hrs = 7.668GJ per kg of silicon?

the specific heat capacity of silicon is 700J/(kg*K). For 1 kg, m*cp =
700J/K.

7.668GJ/[700J/K] = 10,954,286 K

thats enough to heat 1kg of Si to 11 million degrees C!!!

the melting point of Si is about 1700K so that could melt 1kg of Si
about 6,444 times.

Clearly this number is wrong.

Its out by about three orders of magnitude - if it were 2130W-hrs, that
would be enough to melt 1kg of Si six-and-a-half times, a thoroughly
believable proposition.

dividing your numbers by 1000 changes the answer somewhat, although the
methodology is sound.

> 3. So you have how much energy your cells make and how many watt hours
> of power it took to make the silicon used in them. Divide the second by
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> One Kilo of silicon can make a lot more than a single 115 Watt panel.
> Depends on how thin you slice it.

which does not alter the fact that at 115W takes 66,678,260 seconds to
use 7.668GJ, IOW 18,522 hrs = 2.1 years. Add in the various efficiency
factors, and Trevors calc is about right.

he said nothing about how many solar panels that 1kg of Si will make.

> Regards
> Mark  Harriss

Cheers
Terry
Mark Harriss - 28 Jul 2005 09:38 GMT
>>> **All very interesting and unreasonably confusing. I did a quick
>>> search and came up with more than 20 references to ENERGY payback for
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> Cheers
> Terry

Hi Terry, I pulled that figure off the net as the total energy cost to
make and refine silicon to semiconductor grade, which is where cell
makers buy their single crystal silicon:  I would imagine with constant
remelting of silicon from zone refining that it would approach that
energy figure.

 I always have trouble with my kilowatt hours terminology, thanks for
the advice.

Mark Harriss
Terry Given - 28 Jul 2005 09:55 GMT
>>>> **All very interesting and unreasonably confusing. I did a quick
>>>> search and came up with more than 20 references to ENERGY payback
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> remelting of silicon from zone refining that it would approach that
> energy figure.

I dont buy it. They melt the Si a few times, not a few thousand times.

The physics dont lie.

Thats one problem with the web, bullshit abounds. When in doubt find
(2N+1) different sources, and make a majority decision. Seriously, it
looks like either they have screwed up the units (W-hr cf kW-hr) or have
included the energy involved in building the entire infrastructure - not
an uncommon trick with greenies, but desperately unfair - where do you
stop, pretty soon one ends up calculating the energy required to build
our entire civilisation from scratch.....

According to Goodge, Semiconductor Device Technology, ch.3 chemical
reduction is first used to purify SiO2. It then undergoes zone refining
several times (pulled thru a heater, making a molten segment that
travels along the Si rod, essentially pushing the contaminants to the
end). The end(s) are lopped off, and the resultant pure Si is re-melted,
and a single crystal is pulled (Czochralski process)

So the Si would certainly be melted several times, which is what your
number indicate assuming its W-hr not kW-hr

>  I always have trouble with my kilowatt hours terminology, thanks for
> the advice.

I'm a pedant.... but the "/" symbol really confuses things.

> Mark Harriss

Cheers
Terry
Mark Harriss - 28 Jul 2005 10:12 GMT
> I dont buy it. They melt the Si a few times, not a few thousand times.
>
> The physics dont lie.

Yep I think so too: so I'm madly trying to find that 2130 KW-Hr figure
again, or any figure for that matter.

> Cheers
> Terry

Regards
Mark
Mark Harriss - 28 Jul 2005 11:46 GMT
> The physics dont lie.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Cheers
> Terry

Hi Terry, here's a different site:

http://www.environmentalfutures.org/Images/williams.PDF

with a powerpoint presentation that has the same figure
for silicon production (page 12) of 2130 KWH per kilo.
This one, though does specify that this is the TOTAL cost
to get from sand to a finished silicon WAFER per kilo, not
just a kilo as I stated.

Also the author does cite references of studies for these
figures so I'm inclined to believe him. As solar cells
are made from wafers, I think it may still be a valid
comparison.

At any rate see what you think.

Regards
Mark Harriss
Terry Given - 28 Jul 2005 12:24 GMT
>> The physics dont lie.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Regards
> Mark Harriss

Hi Mark, thanks for that.

Complete life-cycle energy costings....

the numbers in the table on p. 16 dont stack up:

multiply the % columns: 0.9*0.9*0.42*0.50*0.56 = 0.095

divide energy by % and add:
123/.9 + 50/.9 + 250/.42 + 250/.50 + 240/.56 = 1594kWh

Hmm, thats not quite right, probably a typo on their part, the order of
magnitude didnt change.

But clearly the erroneous figure 2130kWh is for 1kg of *processed*
wafer, and should be 1594kWh = 5.7GJ. Typical sneaky bastards, present
data in the way that serves their purpose best....because the yield is
9.5%, that 5.7GJ is "spent" on 10.5kg of raw Si, enough to melt it
(1700K) 458 times, a hell of an improvement on 6,444 times.

So if we multiply the 1600kWh by the weight of a solar cell in kg (much
less than 1kg) that will give us a fair estimate for the total energy
cost of the solar cell.

If we assume the wafer is 200mm diameter and 0.5mm thick (a guess), its
volume is 15.7e-6 m^3, so weighs about (15.7e-6 m^3)*(2330kg/m^3) =
0.0366kg, so per wafer its about 58kWh = 210MJ.

If you have some figures on Si area, thickness and power output, we can
work out the total payback time.

which pays back *ALL* of the energy used in the entire manufacturing
process.

Fun with physics.

Oh yeah, then do the same for the diesel generator. That steel didnt
smelt itself....

Cheers
Terry
Mark Harriss - 28 Jul 2005 12:54 GMT
> Hi Mark, thanks for that.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> 9.5%, that 5.7GJ is "spent" on 10.5kg of raw Si, enough to melt it
> (1700K) 458 times, a hell of an improvement on 6,444 times.

Not to mention CO2 produced from electricity used and carbon burnt for
the first step of the process.

> So if we multiply the 1600kWh by the weight of a solar cell in kg (much
> less than 1kg) that will give us a fair estimate for the total energy
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If you have some figures on Si area, thickness and power output, we can
> work out the total payback time.

 I'm happy with the 0.5 mm thickness of a single cell, it may well be
thinner now, I still haven't found any processing costs for making the
wafer into a cell either which would be handy. I did find a commercial
cell efficiency of 11.5% and I would think using a solar flux figure
multiplied by the efficiency would be ok for power output.

> which pays back *ALL* of the energy used in the entire manufacturing
> process.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Oh yeah, then do the same for the diesel generator. That steel didnt
> smelt itself....

It'd be interesting to compare the CO2 made for both paths also.

Not only that but the genny is not used all the time, what are the
figures for continuous use. Hmmm... then there's battery costs as
well.

> Cheers
> Terry

Regards

Mark
Terry Given - 28 Jul 2005 13:09 GMT
>> Hi Mark, thanks for that.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Not to mention CO2 produced from electricity used and carbon burnt for
> the first step of the process.

this total-cost-of-ownership thing gets pretty tricky pretty fast eh?

>> So if we multiply the 1600kWh by the weight of a solar cell in kg
>> (much less than 1kg) that will give us a fair estimate for the total
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> cell efficiency of 11.5% and I would think using a solar flux figure
> multiplied by the efficiency would be ok for power output.

look at the mic preamp gain post on a.b.s.e. I've got a link there to a
company that sells die. A typical die is 11mil thick, about 0.28mm hence
my guess of 0.5mm

>> which pays back *ALL* of the energy used in the entire manufacturing
>> process.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> It'd be interesting to compare the CO2 made for both paths also.

thats probably beyond me, my chemistry is not so great. But I'd be happy
to learn how...

> Not only that but the genny is not used all the time, what are the
> figures for continuous use. Hmmm... then there's battery costs as
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Mark
Alan Peake - 29 Jul 2005 08:55 GMT
1. It's simple math Trevor: ............

Perhaps the simpler maths would be to just look at the cost of buying
panels. 50W panels used to cost about $500. How much of that is for the
energy required to manufacture them? $50? How much is a KWH? Say $0.15 -
then a 50W panel takes about 50/.15 or about 333KWH. So the 50W panel
has to make 333KWH to break even. At 5Hrs/day, this takes 333K/(5*50) or
1333 days or 3.65 years.
Alan
Alan Peake - 29 Jul 2005 08:49 GMT
> 1. It's simple math Trevor: ............

Perhaps the simpler maths would be to just look at the cost of buying
panels. 50W panels used to cost about $500. How much of that is for the
energy required to manufacture them? $50? How much is a KWH? Say $0.15 -
then a 50W panel takes about 50/.15 or about 333KWH. So the 50W panel
has to make 333KWH to break even. At 5Hrs/day, this takes 333K/(5*50) or
1333 days or 3.65 years.
Alan
Phil Allison - 29 Jul 2005 08:47 GMT
"Alan Peake"

>> 1. It's simple math Trevor: ............
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> to make 333KWH to break even. At 5Hrs/day, this takes 333K/(5*50) or
> 1333 days or 3.65 years.

**  A simpler calc is how long to pay for themselves, compared to mains
power.

A more realistic hours figure at 50 watts output is 1000 per year  - takes
into account winters and cloudy days.

So 50 kWH   =   $ 7.5 worth of power per year.

Break even happens at 500/7.5  =  67 years.

Shame the panels will have died after 15 to 20 years.

...........   Phil
Alan Peake - 29 Jul 2005 09:07 GMT
> **  A simpler calc is how long to pay for themselves, compared to mains
> power.

Yes, if you don't take into account the cost of having mains installed.
I was quoted around $20,000 to get mains on here and that's cheap!
Alan
Phil Allison - 29 Jul 2005 09:05 GMT
"Alan Peake"

>> **  A simpler calc is how long to pay for themselves, compared to mains
>> power.
>
> Yes, if you don't take into account the cost of having mains installed. I
> was quoted around $20,000 to get mains on here and that's cheap!

**   Sure  -  but I was alluding to the silly notion that such panels could
pay for themselves by generating power back into the national grid.

...........    Phil
David L. Jones - 29 Jul 2005 09:08 GMT
> > **All very interesting and unreasonably confusing. I did a quick search and
> > came up with more than 20 references to ENERGY payback for Silicon Solar
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> horizon so you multiply the wattage by the time to get Watt-Hours of
> energy you make for a DAY.

For those interested, the daily BOM solar radiation map is here:
http://www.bom.gov.au/sat/solrad.shtml
Yesterday was about 11 megajoules/m2 in Sydney which is about 3KWh/m2

I was going to solar power a small device in a new design until I
remembered that I now have sustainable "green power" mains supply
anyway. So I'm effectively getting solar (among other sources) mains
power now. So there was no environmental incentive, and the payback
time would have been something like 100+ years
Scraped that idea petty quick, mains power it is.

Dave :)
Mark Harriss - 29 Jul 2005 09:16 GMT
> For those interested, the daily BOM solar radiation map is here:
> http://www.bom.gov.au/sat/solrad.shtml
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Dave :)

Is that figure correct, David?. From what I could find the figure is
1.2 KWH average with the best spot on the planet at 1.4 KWH.

Regards
Mark
David L. Jones - 29 Jul 2005 09:50 GMT
> > For those interested, the daily BOM solar radiation map is here:
> > http://www.bom.gov.au/sat/solrad.shtml
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Regards
> Mark

Well, that's the official daily data from the Bureau of Meteorology
from the GEOS-9 Satellite, so I guess it must be as correct as you can
get. More info on how the data is obtained is here:
http://www.bom.gov.au/sat/solradinfo.shtml

Average error on a clear day is +/-2 MJ.
1.4KWh is only 5MJ. Up North in Aus it was 4 times that figure
yesterday.

More interesting stuff is here:
http://www.bom.gov.au/sat/glossary.shtml

You can get historical data here:
http://www.bom.gov.au/nmoc/archives/Solar/index.shtml

You can also get a really cool (no pun intended) looping map display by
clicking on the "loop" link available after you search for a date
range.
I just did a test on some old data and it can get as high as 38MJ
(10.5KWh) in many parts of Aus fairly regularly, even in winter.

Dave :)
Mark Harriss - 29 Jul 2005 10:37 GMT
> I just did a test on some old data and it can get as high as 38MJ
> (10.5KWh) in many parts of Aus fairly regularly, even in winter.
>
> Dave :)

David, is that just a peak spot reading or the entire energy per day?.

If that's accurate dats then what are these guys on about with point 4:
http://www.jc-solarhomes.com/solar_energy_facts.htm

They claim it's 1.4 KWH per m2 above the atmosphere and about 1 on the
surface.

These folks say beam solar radiation is about 0.9 KWH per M2
http://www.jgsee.kmutt.ac.th/exell/Solar/IntroSolar.html

This guy claims a peak of 1.1 KWH per m2
http://uqconnect.net/~zzmrobin/sunshark/thecar.html

I'm getting a bit confused here.

Regards
Mark
David L. Jones - 30 Jul 2005 06:50 GMT
> > I just did a test on some old data and it can get as high as 38MJ
> > (10.5KWh) in many parts of Aus fairly regularly, even in winter.
> >
> > Dave :)
>
> David, is that just a peak spot reading or the entire energy per day?.

Ah-ha, after closer reading it does indeed appear to be the *total*
energy per day.
So at the maximum reading of 38MJ on the scale, that's 10.5KWh divided
by the number of hours the sun is up. That now corresponds to your
figures.

> If that's accurate dats then what are these guys on about with point 4:
> http://www.jc-solarhomes.com/solar_energy_facts.htm
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I'm getting a bit confused here.

Sorry for the confusion, I hadn't looked into it that far yet :->

The value does vary by a massive amount though. At 11MJ the other day
that's only about 0.3KWh, a HUGE difference from the days when it
peaks. So it wouldn't be wise to use just any average quoted figure
when the real data is available.

Should be pretty easy to download the historical data and calculate the
REAL average for your location and time of the year.

Regards
Dave :)
Mark Harriss - 30 Jul 2005 09:06 GMT
Ah, all is made clear, it's starting to look like my
initial figures were overly optimistic!.

I see some Japanese researchers have a way to electrolyse
glass into silicon in a hot chemical bath, it's be
interesting how much energy that route takes, though
making glass takes a lot of energy too.

Ideally someone will find a way to make chep solar cells
that are efficient.

Mark Harriss
Trevor Wilson - 28 Jul 2005 01:12 GMT
> Do the maths better....

**I just performed a more detailed analysis. Urk. I will require 20 X 115
Watt panels, not 10. That is, of course, assuming I don't make any
conservation moves. At present, I get by on around 13kWhr/day. Adding Solar
hot water should drop that figure by around 5kWhr/day. Give or take.

This will require more thought.

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Sam - 27 Jul 2005 11:14 GMT
> After some investigation, I've decided to CONSIDER a completely different
> approach to a petrol, or diesel generator. I can buy a 3kVA inverter for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Any thoughts and suggestions will be appreciated.

What about hydrogen fuel cells?

Last forever, no batteries required.

The way of the future.
Trevor Wilson - 27 Jul 2005 11:24 GMT
>> After some investigation, I've decided to CONSIDER a completely different
>> approach to a petrol, or diesel generator. I can buy a 3kVA inverter for
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> What about hydrogen fuel cells?

**What about consumables?

> Last forever, no batteries required.
>
> The way of the future.

**Perhaps. However, I am searching for a practical, reasonably priced,
doable (right now) technology.

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Joe - 27 Jul 2005 11:34 GMT
Just wondering mate, what brand of inverter are you thining of going for?

> >> After some investigation, I've decided to CONSIDER a completely different
> >> approach to a petrol, or diesel generator. I can buy a 3kVA inverter for
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Trevor Wilson
> www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson - 27 Jul 2005 20:48 GMT
> Just wondering mate, what brand of inverter are you thining of going for?

**I have yet to determine that. If anyone has a suggestion, I would be all
ears. Here is my source:

http://www.quirks.com.au/

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Alan Peake - 28 Jul 2005 08:27 GMT
>>Just wondering mate, what brand of inverter are you thining of going for?
>
> **I have yet to determine that. If anyone has a suggestion, I would be all
> ears. Here is my source:

If you want a quiet RF environment, some "pure" sinewave inverters put
out a bit of RF. Mine (SEA Voyager) puts an S5 signal on some of the
amateur bands. Can be suppressed of course - but that's more work.
It is very efficient though - even at low levels  (<50W).
Alan
Terry Given - 28 Jul 2005 09:40 GMT
>>> Just wondering mate, what brand of inverter are you thining of going
>>> for?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> It is very efficient though - even at low levels  (<50W).
> Alan

What features would you look for in a "pure" sinewave inverter? what
features would you like?

Here's what I think:

- true sinewave (even at no load)
- line interactive
- fully regenerative (eats motor loads etc)
- low (ideally no) EMI. Run an AM radio sitting on top of it...
- doesnt care which wires go to the grid, which to the load
(alas, it does care about which go to the battery)
- IP66/IP68 (run the sucker underwater...)
- drop it from 1m and give it a good boot while its running (wont die)
- programmable input PF -1...+1 (IOW can do VAR compensation)
- input can act as harmonic filter
- failsafe (fully fused, thermal modelling/monitoring etc)
- no inrush current
- sub-cycle brownout/dropout detection - bumpless power transfer
- optically isolated comms link
- user serviceable cooling fan
- liquid cooling option
- 3:1 peak to average power ratio
- > 20kHz switching frequency (inaudible)
- single- & three-phase models
- wide range of battery voltages (12-24-48V)
- built-in battery condition monitoring
- simple yet useful user interface (small LCD, a few buttons)
- optional bypass contactor

Cheers
Terry
budgie - 28 Jul 2005 11:57 GMT
>>>> Just wondering mate, what brand of inverter are you thining of going
>>>> for?
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>- simple yet useful user interface (small LCD, a few buttons)
>- optional bypass contactor

Most of those are features I am used to seeing in a commercial (i.e. not
domestic) UPS.

However review for a moment your 3:1 peak:average capability.  Peak is
determined largely by current handling in the semis.  Average is more determined
by thermal factors.

I can turn a 2:1 into a 3:1 very cheaply - by removing part of the heatsink.
One needs to be rather careful specifying such a ratio unless the average power
output capability is also defined adequately.
Terry Given - 28 Jul 2005 12:01 GMT
>>>>>Just wondering mate, what brand of inverter are you thining of going
>>>>>for?
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> Most of those are features I am used to seeing in a commercial (i.e. not
> domestic) UPS.

some of them you wont find in commercial UPS either :) Yet...

> However review for a moment your 3:1 peak:average capability.  Peak is
> determined largely by current handling in the semis.  Average is more determined
> by thermal factors.

yep.

> I can turn a 2:1 into a 3:1 very cheaply - by removing part of the heatsink.
> One needs to be rather careful specifying such a ratio unless the average power
> output capability is also defined adequately.

ROTFLMAO! nicely put. Say Pcont = 3kW.

Cheers
Terry
Alan Peake - 29 Jul 2005 08:38 GMT
> What features would you look for in a "pure" sinewave inverter? what
> features would you like?

Yes, I'd like all of those Terry :)
The Voyager is pretty good on most except the RFI. It's rated at 1700W
continuous, 2400W for 30 minutes and 3900W for 5 seconds. Starts all my
240v motors OK (biggest is half horse)and the 19" CRT monitor doesn't
dim the lights either at switch-on. (The 10HP/3.5 KVA petrol genny
coughs a bit under this load).
The THD is quoted at <4% but the switching freq is around 18KHz and I
get harmonics of this up to >14MHz.
Alan
Phil Allison - 27 Jul 2005 12:21 GMT
"Trevor Wilson"

> **Perhaps. However, I am searching for a practical, reasonably priced,
> doable (right now) technology.

**  You need to broaden you horizons  -  Trevor.

If your power goes off  -  then so does the whole area.

There is an *opportunity* here.

Get a 20 kVA diesel gene and some long extensions, so you can supply power
to your immediate neighbours.

10 neighbours at say $50 a day could be quite lucrative.

Charge that pesky Leb next door double too.

.........    Phil
Trevor Wilson - 27 Jul 2005 20:50 GMT
> "Trevor Wilson"
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> There is an *opportunity* here.

**Something I had considered, if I went diesel.

> Get a 20 kVA diesel gene and some long extensions, so you can supply power
> to your immediate neighbours.
>
> 10 neighbours at say $50 a day could be quite lucrative.
>
> Charge that pesky Leb next door double too.

**Not a chance. Not for any amount of money.

Signature

Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

j.l@octa4.net.au - 27 Jul 2005 14:02 GMT
> Any thoughts and suggestions will be appreciated.
>
> --
> Trevor Wilson
> www.rageaudio.com.au

G'day,

Solar really only adds up economically when you're in the middle of
nowhere and have to generate your own power. Mains power is actually
really good value when compared to trying to generate it yourself.
Power 24/7 aint cheap to do.

If you want backup, have a look at second hand places, machine yards,
auctions etc. A quality second hand genset is better than a $100 pile
of sh.t from bunnings. I got a 3kVA online UPS at an auction not long
ago for $20, batteries were stuffed but after getting some new
batteries I had a 3kVA online unit for the same price as a 400VA
standby unit. Actually if you get an Active online type UPS you could
pretty much use any generator you liked as they rectify all the
incoming mains and invert it again.

Good Luck
Matt2 - Amstereo - 27 Jul 2005 14:12 GMT
Seriously, My house would run comfortably on < 1 kw/hr (not counting
washing machine)

I have compact fluros everywere, with only 2 - 3 on at one time, The TV
when used and computer,

Cooking / washing is done by natural gas. My last power bill was a
miniscule $70 for the last 90 days that, i belive is bloddy good.

we have 1 fridge and 1 chest freezer that run when needed. I dont use
heaters much if at all, the heat generated during cooking is enough to
provide the evenings heat.

if i were to switch most items to 12V (lights etc) i could run
alternative energy sources. why 12(24) up convert to 240 for lighting
when you can jsut use cheap and power friendly CCFL's? LCD monitors run
 internaly from 12v (most anyway) and as long as your not running a P4
your computer can run low powered too. shite, the acer 995 sempron
laptop would work well in an alternate power environment.

Houses don't need to use much power,just people are mindless about
leaving things on when not needed.
Phil Allison - 27 Jul 2005 14:41 GMT
"Matt2 - Amstereo"

> Seriously, My house would run comfortably on < 1 kw/hr (not counting
> washing machine)
> I have compact fluros everywere, with only 2 - 3 on at one time, The TV
> when used and computer,
>
> Cooking / washing is done by natural gas.

**   Huh ?

You have a gas powered washer ??

You do not own an electric jug  ??

I bet your hot water is gas though.

Plus I bet you live where the climate is warm.

> Houses don't need to use much power,just people are mindless about leaving
> things on when not needed.

**  Many residences have no gas appliances or supply.

A small electric water heater takes 3.6 kW.

A basic electric stove takes 5 kW when the oven and 4 tops are all on.

A small room heater takes 2kW and an electric jug the same.

On a cold evening, while cooking dinner -  the whole lot may be on.

That is over 10 kW not counting lights, TV or fridge.

.........   Phil
Matt2 - Amstereo - 27 Jul 2005 15:34 GMT
>  **   Huh ?
>
>  You have a gas powered washer ??
no,. refering to hot water you know dishes, shower etc

>  You do not own an electric jug  ??
Yeah but im refering to being able to run most / all heating without
electricity meaning that alternative power is viable

>  I bet your hot water is gas though.
As i said above we have natural gas

>  Plus I bet you live where the climate is warm.
No, ipswich is always colder than brisbane in winter, however jumpers or
jackets are great money savers

>>Houses don't need to use much power,just people are mindless about leaving
>>things on when not needed.
>
> **  Many residences have no gas appliances or supply.
easy to have fitted or installed (a must for alternative electricity)
and the savings are pretty good to.

> A small electric water heater takes 3.6 kW.
no good for alternative electricity

> A basic electric stove takes 5 kW when the oven and 4 tops are all on.
no good for alternative electricity

> A small room heater takes 2kW and an electric jug the same.
no good for alternative electricity

> On a cold evening, while cooking dinner -  the whole lot may be on.
Gas is a clean viable and cheap alternative for all these. (and yes you
can get gas fridges, though the costs may or may not be different

> That is over 10 kW not counting lights, TV or fridge.
Any thing that envolves heating can be run on gas. I perfer to cook on
gas simply because of control and instance.

The orig poster was on about alternative energy, i don't think hed go to
all the trouble of fitting a collector / bank just so he can use it for
burn an element. Resistive heat is the most draining on any power
system, using a burning flame is by far the most efficient way of
heating somthing. Gas matey, Gas.
TT - 28 Jul 2005 01:08 GMT
: The orig poster was on about alternative energy, i don't think hed go to
: all the trouble of fitting a collector / bank just so he can use it for
: burn an element. Resistive heat is the most draining on any power
: system, using a burning flame is by far the most efficient way of
: heating somthing. Gas matey, Gas.

I do share your sentiments on gas.

What a novel idea would be is to harness the great, untapped
methane resource that resides in Phil.  He is just so full
of the "brown smelly stuff" you could power a small city on
it ;-)

After reading that "Strobe" thread I very much doubt anyone
would disagree.

Regards TT
David Sauer - 28 Jul 2005 12:41 GMT
>A small electric water heater takes 3.6 kW.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>That is over 10 kW not counting lights, TV or fridge.

Can't believe you didn't quote toaster specs. Should know them all.
1 room heater = 20 toasters, just you have to keep pushing to toast
button down all the time.

If loss of power is a concern then use an inverter for essential
lighting and power and use gas for the other essential items like the
oven and hotwater. Forget about using stuff like microwaves and
electric jugs for a few days while power is out.

Gas fridges are available, old man has a large domestic size fridge
running off BBQ gas bottles on his boat and then there's always the
Engel type smaller ones which are normally used for camping.
Maybe power the fridge a number of times a day off a genset used for
that purpose only.

Even in areas where town gas is not available there might be bottled
gas service available where they'll come and top up your tank or
supply two large tanks with a change over switch and swap them over
when you call and tell them you have an empty.

Trying to power electric hot-water and oven off an inverter is
ridiculous and a waste of money. Use the BBQ and install a back-up
instantaneous hot-water system off a 9kg BBQ gas bottle if needed for
a back-up. The later can be picked up cheap second-hand.
Dave Goldfinch - 28 Jul 2005 01:44 GMT
>After some investigation, I've decided to CONSIDER a completely different
>approach to a petrol, or diesel generator. I can buy a 3kVA inverter for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Any thoughts and suggestions will be appreciated.

Whenever I have contemplated something like this, I have always
wondered why no one has produced a small gen set that runs off town
gas ? Interruptions to the gas supply are very rare.

Would it be feasable to convert a small petrol motor to run off the
bayonet point a barbecue or heater connects to ?

Dave Goldfinch
 
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